Hi, Denise.
This helped me understand the Catholic Mass.
Hi Steve,
This is the explanation to which you were referring:
I think this explanation needs some clarification. (By the way, I am a different “Steve”).
People forget that there is more to the phrase “and eye for an eye”. It continues with “and a tooth for a tooth”. Paraphrasing, it means do not take one’s eye when they only took your tooth. It was a statement about justice and proportionality. While better than an “eye for a tooth”, it is still justice which lacks mercy. Jesus went beyond this and said:
A bit confusing. Would you mind trying capsulize it a little bit. Not sure what you mean by “the H-Ticket requirements”. Are you speaking of our motivation to do good?
Thanks.I don’t think any church teaches He is currently suffering as He did on the cross?
Our sin has to be made present at the cross for Jesus to bear them, the cross was an event in time, hence we can accurately say that Jesus is currently seated at the right hand of the Father, and isn’t suffering on the cross, at this moment.
Yeah, this was another Steve in a different thread. Thanks for adding on some clarification!
Hi One Sheep. If I’m getting this, you think that going to mass and being nourished by Jesus is a requirement which enslaves us? I’d like to write something to give you something to think about what we believe. If Jesus made a command would you consider it enslaving us? I would say to you that what you believe is ‘requirements’ is our being refueled in Gods love by being nourished in Gods Word and the body and blood of Our Lord. Do you think that the ten commandments are enslaving us also, like keeping Holy the Lords Day? Or feeding the hungry, giving drink to the thirsty, clothing the poor, which Jesus says is a requirement also. The whole of the new testament is filled with things that Jesus tells us to do or not to do. Don’t you believe Jesus has the wisdom to know what is good for us and others? Some people think that we go to mass because it is required of us and that we don’t do it willingly. There is no one forcing us to go to mass… If you peruse through these posts you would see how many people have a great devotion to the Eucharist knowing that it IS the body and blood of Christ…! We go to mass willingly because we know God is there and we want our fill of God. To us going to Church is like Moses standing on Holy ground! and it is free and apart from the secular world… Our Churches are sanctified and holy created for one purpose, to honor God, It is Our Fathers house of Worship so why wouldn’t we want to be there?.. In fact it has been found that the minute families stop being practicing Catholics they have troubles in their marriages and their families so they look more like the secular world and that makes sense because they become further away from God. If we want God to stay close to us, we need to stay close to Him and there is no closer than one can get but in the mass where Jesus is present. We are doing like the Apostles gathered in worship to gain strength in the Lord by being nourished by His word and body and blood before they were sent out to preach and teach the good news of Jesus Christ. I point to the words our Savior gave us…Hi Steve,
I have been delving into the “world news” forum a bit, and it helped “drive home” for me the other way of looking at eternal life, as the life that begins here and now. We were discussing the warring parties in the Middle East, and it came obvious that as long as people behave out of desire for justice, but specifically out of the drive to punish those who have hurt them, then there will be nothing but eternal hell. An “eye for an eye” is certainly a matter of seeking justice, but it is eternal hell, there is no end. On the other hand, forgiveness, understanding, and reconciliation create a different eternity, they create the Kingdom.
To me, belief in Christ means more than saying “Jesus is” or “Jesus is Lord”. Belief involves believing in what Jesus was (is) committed to: loving everyone, creating the kingdom. It means loving our neighbors and forgiving everyone we hold something against, including ourselves. It means a commitment to finding the good in whatever happens. It means to love and serve. The wholeness, the holiness, that results from our own unconditional love for everyone, to forgive everyone, is its own reward, the life of love and service is an eternal life, a great life, a life free from slavery to our natural appetites.
As soon as I use the word “require”, though, I am referring to the other notion of eternal life, a life that does not begin until we pass from this world, a life that I must somehow “earn”, and I earn that life by fulfilling all of the conditions that God has set forth in a “this is what it takes to get the H ticket” rubric.
To me, there is a place for both views of “eternal life”. If it takes a striving for an “H ticket” in order for me to behave and do good in the world, then such a striving is fruitful. However, if there comes a time when such striving actually tears me down, because I am fueled by an insecurity about God’s love, then it is time to take a deeper look within and to shed all the conditions (the H ticket requirements) that limit my own ability to love others, self, and God. What I am saying is that eventually the whole idea of “requirements” begins to be in itself enslaving.
Maybe this was said here already, I don’t know. Did that make sense, or was it a bit confusing?
Great idea for a thread, thanks for starting it.
Hi Steve,
The question is can any of us really commit to love completely, without reservation? Some of our saints have accomplished this, I believe, and while we are all called to be saints, it is still a rare thing. Most of us still need the requirements.
I have never really felt “enslaved” by God’s commandments or the Church’s requirements. They are their to help us in our spiritual journey. I have always viewed them as an aid to holiness rather than an impediment to my faith or my relationship with God.At that same turning point, a person learns and then knows, with no doubt, that there is nothing that would exclude him/herself from God’s love and wholehearted, open-armed embrace in this world or beyond. We get to know God by following the commandments to love and serve, but when we do love and serve, we come to see God in a different way.
For if we hold anything against anyone, we do not have that sense of security about God’s love for us. The God that says “you will only go to heaven ‘if’”, and the “if” is a condition of love, then the “if” comes to enslave us, we never know whether we have met the criteria or not. As long as there is any condition then there is an insecurity, and the insecurity is enslaving. Since the majority of people are not even aware of all the grudges they hold, i.e. the grudges are socially acceptable, even part of our culture, many (most?) end up enslaved, inadvertently, by their own uncertainty of God’s embrace.
What I am saying is that there is a place for all of it. Enslavement itself becomes the impetus for further growth, when that time comes. In the mean time, for a person who loves others conditionally, the insecurity of conditional love of the projected Father can drive a person to repent, behave, serve, etc., which will ultimately lead to the “turning point” I referred to in the beginning.
Shoot, that was hardly an “encapsulation”. Another way of putting it is that after the “turning point” (where love, rather than fear motivate) the “requirements” stand as more of a cause-and-effect rather than as a God who is saying, “If you don’t do this, you are not acceptable to me.”
BTW: great analogy, and thanks for the additional eye - for - an eye comments.
Hello Karen!
If a person sees that Jesus will only accept a person into heaven, love the person, if they meet certain “requirements”, and those “requirements” are all that drives a person to love, forgive, repent, and serve, then those are really great requirements! They lead to a deeper understanding of love, of the Father, and lead to and a life free from the slavery of our natural appetites.Well, for some people, it is indeed why people “do these things”, it is for the reward. What I am saying is that such a striving for the “reward” has its place! However, the striving itself, once it has taught a person to behave, repent, and serve, becomes enslaving.Yes well I suppose if you believe that it is something we must do rather than what we want to do you would think it is enslaving. Someone who did something even if it is service work if they are required to do it rather than it being a free will offering, would consider that enslaving also and something that people do to earn the rewards of heaven and in this life. There are rewards of heaven, but that’s not why we do these things, we do them because we have God’s love in us leading us on to do these things. I know that people believe that they should do as they want when it comes to worship, well this is as ‘we’ want as the body of Christ… Peace…
I dunno. Learning how to love and forgive everyone is not an easy thing to do. “Everyone” includes enemies, and difficult people, too, right? I think that we should be patient and not so judgmental of those who can’t love and forgive everyone.Hello Karen!
However, if a person does not learn to love and forgive everyone, including himself, it may very well be that the example of “God only loves us ‘if’______” is seen as the way to love others.
Well, we can learn to love and serve completely. The first step is to forgive everyone, including ourselves, we hold anything against. We can forgive the parts of ourselves that we find unacceptable. These are the sources of reservation. Until then, yes, we need the requirements, and in that case the requirements give life, the “net effect” is positive, as I proposed to Karen.The question is can any of us really commit to love completely, without reservation? Some of our saints have accomplished this, I believe, and while we are all called to be saints, it is still a rare thing. Most of us still need the requirements.
The activities that the “requirements” ask of us are always an aid to holiness. What I am referring to is the way that we perceive the “requirements”, the mandates.
Good point, Denise,
)You raise a good point here. I agree that forgiveness doesn’t mean letting it be. Growing in holiness means working on one’s chief faults. It can take awhile, and a lot of effort. I agree that we should be patient with ourselves. The ultimate goal (or goals, IMO) of growing in holiness are to please God, help others, and most importantly, to attain Heaven (our primary goal being our salvation).I must add something here, though. “Forgiveness” does not mean “let it be”. It means coming to understand the source of our impatience, for example, and being at peace with it. As I experience impatience, I am my impatience, it owns me, it controls me. When I watch my impatience and handle it with love, God is in control, I am letting God be in control, not my nature. (Note: my good, functional nature
I just saw this post, and somehow missed it earlier. Holy Mass is the same sacrifice at Calvary, though in an unbloody manner. This doesn’t mean -I don’t think - that Jesus is sacrificed over and over again. It’s more like a re-inactment.
No, it is not a reenactment, it is an offering of the one sacrifice of Christ made present to us today.
Okay. Makes sense.
I think that is what is so astounding about the Mass. Christ’s sacrifice is made present to us here and now. We are standing under the cross; we are caught up in eternity and receive Christ’s glorified body, surrounded by all of the saints and angels in heaven, at each and every Mass. This is what makes it so much different from simply recalling what Christ has done for us.
See we see it differently. We feel Gods love in the mass and get recharged there. You keep thinking of Gods commands as requirements, and they are, but it is those requirements that pull us into Gods love. Okay so think of this. If no one had rules which governed their lives, their lives my allow all sort of other things of the world to enter into it which may interfere with their relationship with God. For example, if I didn’t take time from my busy day to prayer, my day might go by in chaos and at the end of the day I might look back to see that I never took time to be with God which would have been better for me and quite possibly for others I have encountered throughout the day. So that discipline of taking time for prayer helps me to make my day better…Hi Steve,
Yes, this is basically what I am saying, to a point. There is a turning point at the discovery of unconditional love. When a person commits to love completely, without reservation, forgiving his or herself, others, and whatever the powers that be (God), then yes, they no longer “need” to have the requirements in order to behave; the person excludes no one, there is no longer an excluding criteria.
At that same turning point, a person learns and then knows, with no doubt, that there is nothing that would exclude him/herself from God’s love and wholehearted, open-armed embrace in this world or beyond. We get to know God by following the commandments to love and serve, but when we do love and serve, we come to see God in a different way.
For if we hold anything against anyone, we do not have that sense of security about God’s love for us. The God that says “you will only go to heaven ‘if’”, and the “if” is a condition of love, then the “if” comes to enslave us, we never know whether we have met the criteria or not. As long as there is any condition then there is an insecurity, and the insecurity is enslaving. Since the majority of people are not even aware of all the grudges they hold, i.e. the grudges are socially acceptable, even part of our culture, many (most?) end up enslaved, inadvertently, by their own uncertainty of God’s embrace.
What I am saying is that there is a place for all of it. Enslavement itself becomes the impetus for further growth, when that time comes. In the mean time, for a person who loves others conditionally, the insecurity of conditional love of the projected Father can drive a person to repent, behave, serve, etc., which will ultimately lead to the “turning point” I referred to in the beginning.
Shoot, that was hardly an “encapsulation”. Another way of putting it is that after the “turning point” (where love, rather than fear motivate) the “requirements” stand as more of a cause-and-effect rather than as a God who is saying, “If you don’t do this, you are not acceptable to me.”
BTW: great analogy, and thanks for the additional eye - for - an eye comments.
And it does take discipline to make a person a better person which frees them from the bondage of sin. So although it seems rigid, that discipline of spending an hour a day is actually better for me than just living my life with no discipline but some might say that hour is enslavement if they felt they did it only if they had to do it. Think of Jesus scolding the disciples for sleeping for one hour when they should have been standing guard.Scott Hahn terms it the ‘re-presentation’ of the Sacrifice that never ends…Jesus is the offering and also offers us His body and blood as High Priest…
