What does Porneia mean?

[rcwitness]

I was trying to ask your opinion on a practical level. It wasnt meant to be a proof arguement.

But try Acts 15

"It is my judgment, therefore, that we ought to stop troubling the Gentiles who turn to God, but tell them by letter to avoid pollution from idols, porneia, the meat of strangled animals, and blood. For Moses, for generations now, has had those who proclaim him in every town, as he has been read in the synagogues every sabbath.”

 

[Prodigal_Son]

But try Acts 15

"It is my judgment, therefore, that we ought to stop troubling the Gentiles who turn to God, but tell them by letter to avoid pollution from idols, porneia, the meat of strangled animals, and blood. For Moses, for generations now, has had those who proclaim him in every town, as he has been read in the synagogues every sabbath.”

Nearly every translation translates that as “sexual immorality” or “fornication”.

 

[rcwitness]

But what does that mean???

 

[Prodigal_Son]

But what does that mean???

Any kind of sexual immorality: masturbation, unmarried sexual activity, adultery, pederasty, homosexuality, you name it. That is just the common meaning of “porneia”.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Mind you, I’m not claiming this is what Matthew means. I’m just saying that it is clearly a common meaning for the term.

 

[rcwitness]

Its a term that requires context to provide its direct meaning. In the context of Acts 15, it is applied with specific laws of Moses.

Here are the notes from the NAB

“Some scholars think that this apostolic decree suggested by James, the immediate leader of the Jerusalem community, derives from another historical occasion than the meeting in question. This seems to be the case if the meeting is the same as the one related in Gal 2:1–10. According to that account, nothing was imposed upon Gentile Christians in respect to Mosaic law; whereas the decree instructs Gentile Christians of mixed communities to abstain from meats sacrificed to idols and from blood-meats, and to avoid marriage within forbidden degrees of consanguinity and affinity (Lv 18), all of which practices were especially abhorrent to Jews. Luke seems to have telescoped two originally independent incidents here: the first a Jerusalem “Council” that dealt with the question of circumcision, and the second a Jerusalem decree dealing mainly with Gentile observance of dietary laws (see Acts 21:25 where Paul seems to be learning of the decree for the first time).”

 

[Prodigal_Son]

I have yet to find another commentary that mentions the Leviticus passage in the context of the Acts 15 passage. I don’t see why one would assume a connection between the two. Why wouldn’t James caution Gentiles not to behave in a sexually immoral way?

 

[rcwitness]

Context! What does James mention? Moses’ laws!

What were Moses’ laws concerning sexual immorality that would be grouped with drinking blood and eating sacrifices offered to idols?

In Matthew’s account, the Pharisees brought up Moses’ certificate of divorce but Jesus denies it is from God, however, He affirms what God did Command.

Leviticus 18:

And the Lord said to Moses, “Say to the people of Israel, I am the Lord your God. You shall not do as they do in the land of Egypt, where you dwelt, and you shall not do as they do in the land of Canaan, to which I am bringing you. You shall not walk in their statutes. You shall do my ordinances and keep my statutes and walk in them. I am the Lord your God. You shall therefore keep my statutes and my ordinances, by doing which a man shall live: I am the Lord. “None of you shall approach any one near of kin to him to uncover nakedness. I am the Lord.

So because Jesus rejected the concession of divorce which the Pharisees questioned about, Jesus reafirmed what really was from God.

 

[rcwitness]

rcwitness:

But what does that mean???

Any kind of sexual immorality: masturbation, unmarried sexual activity, adultery, pederasty, homosexuality, you name it. That is just the common meaning of “porneia”.

So a man could divorce and remarry if his wife masturbated???

Can you reference some of these various examples of porneia in Scripture?

 

[Prodigal_Son]

So a man could divorce and remarry if his wife masturbated???

Can you reference some of these various examples of porneia in Scripture?

As I said above, I was not commenting on the usage of the word in Matthew, only in Acts. In Acts, it is plausibly a catch-all for all sexual immorality.

(Though I would say that a woman caught masturbating in Hebrew society would be subject to penalties perhaps unbelievably harsh).

 

[Prodigal_Son]

What were Moses’ laws concerning sexual immorality that would be grouped with drinking blood and eating sacrifices offered to idols?

Presumably all of Moses’s laws concerning sexual morality, which were many – and which would restrict the sorts of things I mentioned above, among others.

 

[rcwitness]

rcwitness:

So a man could divorce and remarry if his wife masturbated???

Can you reference some of these various examples of porneia in Scripture?

As I said above, I was not commenting on the usage of the word in Matthew, only in Acts. In Acts, it is plausibly a catch-all for all sexual immorality.

(Though I would say that a woman caught masturbating in Hebrew society would be subject to penalties perhaps unbelievably harsh).

Well, i dont see the likelihood of the Acts 15 usage as a catch-all.

And we arent simply talking about Hebrew Society, but what Jesus was Teaching and re-establishing. Look at the context of the Matthew 5 use of porneia! Jesus’ theme is “you have heard, but i tell you”. Its actually the society that he is rejecting to place emphisis on what God Teaches.

 

[rcwitness]

Examples? Where is masturbation condemned by Moses law?

Id like to know what laws regarding sexual imorality did God command through Moses? Dont you think its safe to assume whatever James and the Apostles intended by porneia had direct relation to Moses’ laws?

Was prostitution even condemned by Mosaic law?
Was sex before marriage condemned by Moses law?

Im not suggesting these things cant be considered forms of porneia, but that James specifically states his reason these things should be required are on account of Moses and what is read in the synagogues concerning him.

 

[steve-b]

rcwitness:

That is the evidence of a believer.

Infant baptism is evidence of belief? All the time?

One should not get married before getting Baptized, right? First things first?

Maybe in medieval Euorpe. If we’re talking about a pre-Christian or post-Christian society, the likelihood is that people will come to faith later in life, possibly after they’ve already been married and have started families.

Anyway, I don’t want to derail the thread. Was just curious how the Pauline privilege actually worked in Catholicism. Thanks.

Paul only wrote

1. to the Church they (the apostles) were building. The Catholic Church.
2. No writer of the NT wrote to anybody else other than to the Church or one in the Church.
3. By definition then, they (the recipients of letter or Gospel) are ALL in the Church, therefore, all baptized,

1 example

When Paul writes his letter to the Romans, who exactly is Paul writing to? If that letter went to the city of Rome in general, IOW a bunch of pagans, would we even have this letter today to read? No chance! Pagan Rome was trying to eliminate Christianity. Good luck with Paul’s letter getting to us today unless Paul is specifically writing to the Church of Rome. After all, Paul was beheaded in Rome by the pagans, as was Peter crucified upside down on Vatican Hill ( in ~67 a.d.).

All the writings went to the Church.

Re: Pauline Privilege
From canon law http://canonlawmadeeasy.com/2013/04/04/what-is-the-pauline-privilege/

For clarification on annulment
From canon law http://canonlawmadeeasy.com/2007/07/26/marriage_and_annulment/

1. excerpt : (paraphrased) the spouses give the sacrament to each other. If one of the spouses can’t in reality give the sacrament to the other, and this is discovered during a request for annulment, then a sacrament didn’t in effect take place.

 

[ltwin]

Paul only wrote

to the Church they (the apostles) were building. The Catholic Church.
No writer of the NT wrote to anybody else other than to the Church or one in the Church.
By definition then, they (the recipients of letter or Gospel) are ALL in the Church, therefore, all baptized,

Yes, I know Paul was writing to the church. When he wrote 1 Corinthians 7:10-15, he was writing to the church about marriage to non-Christians. Therefore, my question about how the Catholic Church determines who is eligible under the Pauline privilege and how “unbeliever” is defined by the Catholic Church.

 

[TheButler]

**And Pharisees came up to him and tested him by asking, “Is it lawful to divorce one’s wife for any cause?” He answered, “Have you not read that he who made them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one’? So they are no longer two but one. What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder.” **

This is where it gets tricky. Traditional interpretation says that God created marriage. However Genesis 2, which Jesus is referencing, reads:
23 And Adam said, "This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
24 “Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.”

Marriage was determined by Adam. Jesus knew this and fooled the Pharisees using their incorrect interpretation against them. The ‘have you not read’ is the pointer to incorrect understanding. If Jesus were quoting scripture he would have used ‘it is written’. As God did not join man and woman together, rather man did, the premise of marriage being ‘of God’ is voided.

 

[rcwitness]

I think Adam was referring to God creating woman out of his own flesh. The act of marriage is joining that flesh together.

I believe you are conflating two things.

But i agree that Adam’s own marriage was determined by Adam and Eve both. Just like all marriages are determined by our consent and sexual union.

 

[TheButler]

I think Adam was referring to God creating woman out of his own flesh. The act of marriage is joining that flesh together.

I’m just reading Genesis 2 as it is written, verbatim, without inference. Jesus’ comment on ‘what God has joined’ after direct reference to Genesis would therefore appear to be in error or a clever manipulation. I would like to think the latter.

In fact Jesus says in John 5 that scriptural teaching is not the way to reach him; he contradicts it blatantly:
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

So if scripture has no value why does Jesus reference it in the divorce question?

 

[rcwitness]

He doesnt say Scripture has no value. That would be your interpretation.

What does He say about the Scriptures?

John 5

“You search the scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness to me; yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.”

Scripture points and directs, illuminates and reveals, corrects and convicts.

 

[rcwitness]

God’s “joining” is due to consensual sex. This is the basis of marriage. But sex by itself does not make it binding by God unto death. That requires a priestly act of the two spouses.