What Does Revelations Say?

[Tom317]

Why is it not all about the early Church? That is, why is it not a First Century view of the Church and its ultimate triumph, without necessarily predicting anything other than that?

“Detective Adrian Monk” on TV – his theme song includes “I could be wrong . . . but I don’t think so.”

am done for the night and will check back sometime tommorrow. Have a good night and thanks for the interesting chat.

 

[Atemi]

“Rome” in those days did not refer to the Church or the Papacy. The Church was tiny, in hiding, and under ferocious persecution. To be chosen Pope was not to be elevated to a position of power among men, but to receive a death sentence.

“Rome” meant the Roman Empire, and was personified by the Emperor.

Many of the early fathers were in agreement that Babylon was the actual city of Rome.

If one reads Revelation, the book is clear that it speaks of a city.

 

[M-Dent]

Why is it not all about the early Church? That is, why is it not a First Century view of the Church and its ultimate triumph, without necessarily predicting anything other than that?

Much of Revelation seems to speak of the 70AD period. Many even identify Nero as the beast. Yet the second half of Revelation Chapter 20 appears to speak of a future event (The Final Rebellion/General Resurrection/Second Coming/Judgement Day).

Fulfilled:

REV 20

1 Then I saw an angel come down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the abyss and a heavy chain.
2 He seized the dragon, the ancient serpent, which is the Devil or Satan, and tied it up for a thousand years
3 and threw it into the abyss, which he locked over it and sealed, so that it could no longer lead the nations astray until the thousand years are completed. After this, it is to be released for a short time.
4 Then I saw thrones; those who sat on them were entrusted with judgment. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image nor had accepted its mark on their foreheads or hands. They came to life and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were over. This is the first resurrection.

The first resurrection could be seen as symbolically speaking of Jesus Christ’s death and resurrection. Jesus opened the gates of Heaven to Adam and all those waiting in Sheol (Abrahams Bosom).

Also supporting this view: Matthew 27

52 tombs were opened, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised.
53 And coming forth from their tombs after his resurrection, they entered the holy city and appeared to many.

CCC

637 In his human soul united to his divine person, the dead Christ went down to the realm of the dead. He opened heaven’s gates for the just who had gone before him.

 

[M-Dent]

Unfulfilled?

The Final and Last Rebellion

REV 20

7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison.
8 He will go out to deceive the nations at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea.
9 They invaded the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city. But fire came down from heaven and consumed them.

Appears to coincide with Christ’s words in Matthew 24 - that clearly has yet to be fulfilled.

21 for at that time there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will be.
22 And if those days had not been shortened, no one would be saved; but for the sake of the elect they will be shortened.
23 If anyone says to you then, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it.
24 False messiahs and false prophets will arise, and they will perform signs and wonders so great as to deceive, if that were possible, even the elect.

The General resurrection directly leading to the Second Coming

REV 20

10 The Devil who had led them astray was thrown into the pool of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
11 Next I saw a large white throne and the one who was sitting on it. The earth and the sky fled from his presence and there was no place for them.
12 I saw the dead, the great and the lowly, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. Then another scroll was opened, the book of life. The dead were judged according to their deeds, by what was written in the scrolls.
13 The sea gave up its dead; then Death and Hades gave up their dead. All the dead were judged according to their deeds.

And again Matthew 24 speaks of the Second Coming

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he will send out his angels with a trumpet blast, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
32 "Learn a lesson from the fig tree. When its branch becomes tender and sprouts leaves, you know that summer is near.
33 In the same way, when you see all these things, know that he is near, at the gates.
34 Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.
35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.
36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, neither the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone

CCC

675 Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers.[573] The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth will unveil the “mystery of iniquity” in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.

676 The Antichrist’s deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgement. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism, especially the “intrinsically perverse” political form of a secular messianism.

677 The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection. The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God’s victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven. God’s triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgement after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Many of the early fathers were in agreement that Babylon was the actual city of Rome.

If one reads Revelation, the book is clear that it speaks of a city.

Unquestionably. “Babylon” was Christian code for “Rome.” Which makes the identification of the Beast with Nero/Domitian very plausible.

I think many would like to turn Saint John into a proto-Nostrademus, with everything foretold in that one book.

 

[spauline]

Thank you for the insult.

Dear Vern,

I am sorry for saying what seemed to imply that I was saying you lack intelligence. Please forgive me. I did not intend to insult you. I think it is just a misunderstanding that is going on, not a lack of intelligence or other good qualities.

maybe I could briefly share what I mean by my approach to the book, which is a view that is allowable in the Catholic Tradition.

I think it really centers around, God has a “Plan”. His Plan is to Redeem humanity. Clearly, the Redemption of humanity is itself a process, a process that is spiritual. For already, God was in the process of redeeming Man even in the OT, in the events that, when He came down and Intervened in Human history, he was gradually preparing the way for the coming of the Son. hence, we must conclude that the Divine actions and revelations of the Father prior to Christ’s first Coming are NOT arbitrary, they have meaning, purpose, reasons for HOW and WHY God has done what He has done. Hence, in a certain sense, God, because of His all-knowing wisdom and love, is able to discern all possible trajectories of free choices of creatures, and what then also involves trajectories of history. He knows the general tendencies of the fallen human nature, and is able to forsee the repeated “predictable” manifestations of man’s fallen nature, but He also knows that in allowing what must come necessarily as a result of the fallen nature, in His Divine Wisdom, He knows precisely how and in what manner He can intervene, either throgh miracles or grace, so as to bring about, from each of the evils, the greatest possible good, and, successive goods, that, ultimately will culminate with the overall greatest possible good for the Redemption of Humanity.

Hence, the apocalypse, as well as all other pertinent data, is not really about what either the fundie futurists say it is, OR what the liberal preterists say it is. that is not to say that preterism and futurism may be not have some validity in their respective levels, but neither of these extremes really addresses the real apocalyptic questions.

These questions are really about the overall spiritual Plan of God for the Redemption of humanity, so that, in the times of the very end, the Church will, based on the Scritpure and Tradition, and the guidance of the Holy Spirit, come to understand the general MEANING and reasons, SPIRITUALLY, for the whole Plan of God, and this must include the age of the Church.

Again, as I’ve said, the world will end only when God, as stated above, can no longer bring a greater spiritual good into humanity, that is, that at the end, humanity will fall away from the truth in such a manner that they no longer will be able to be restored to the Gospel. That is, God can only draw so much good from sin before sin comes to reign in an incurable manner in human history, and that is the condition that will exist in the very end. But clearly, in order for the Church to be able to discern when that condition will exist, they will need to be able to analyze the entire meaning and progress of salvation history, a process that is spiritual, so as to understand when God will have drawn all possible greater good through the Redemption of His Son. But clearly, such an insight can not merely be had through analysis of the Old Testament but also of the very age of the Church herself. Hence, this attitude of “what lies between the first century and the last century of Catholicism is irrelevant” cannot be true, for the age of the Church is the great completion of the Divine Plan for Redemption, and so there will need to be some spiritual structure present within the ages of the Church, based on the Tradition of Scipture and Oral Tradition, as well as really realizing the implications of what these fully mean, in order for the Church to discern when humanity gets into an incurable apostasy.

I don’t know, I guess I’m rambling, but I need to try to organize this better so as to explain what I mean.

Does this help at all or not?

If not, i have an article on my site: Why both futurists and preterists miss the point, if you;'re interested.

Again, I think it’s an issue that at the very end, the Church will discern the full meaning and purpose of the Divine Wisdom in His whole Plan and how He will have done everything He could to bring the greatest possible good in salvation history.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Dear Vern,

I am sorry for saying what seemed to imply that I was saying you lack intelligence. Please forgive me. I did not intend to insult you. I think it is just a misunderstanding that is going on, not a lack of intelligence or other good qualities.

maybe I could briefly share what I mean by my approach to the book, which is a view that is allowable in the Catholic Tradition.

I think it really centers around, God has a “Plan”. His Plan is to Redeem humanity. Clearly, the Redemption of humanity is itself a process, a process that is spiritual. For already, God was in the process of redeeming Man even in the OT, in the events that, when He came down and Intervened in Human history, he was gradually preparing the way for the coming of the Son. hence, we must conclude that the Divine actions and revelations of the Father prior to Christ’s first Coming are NOT arbitrary, they have meaning, purpose, reasons for HOW and WHY God has done what He has done. Hence, in a certain sense, God, because of His all-knowing wisdom and love, is able to discern all possible trajectories of free choices of creatures, and what then also involves trajectories of history. He knows the general tendencies of the fallen human nature, and is able to forsee the repeated “predictable” manifestations of man’s fallen nature, but He also knows that in allowing what must come necessarily as a result of the fallen nature, in His Divine Wisdom, He knows precisely how and in what manner He can intervene, either throgh miracles or grace, so as to bring about, from each of the evils, the greatest possible good, and, successive goods, that, ultimately will culminate with the overall greatest possible good for the Redemption of Humanity.

Hence, the apocalypse, as well as all other pertinent data, is not really about what either the fundie futurists say it is, OR what the liberal preterists say it is. that is not to say that preterism and futurism may be not have some validity in their respective levels, but neither of these extremes really addresses the real apocalyptic questions.

These questions are really about the overall spiritual Plan of God for the Redemption of humanity, so that, in the times of the very end, the Church will, based on the Scritpure and Tradition, and the guidance of the Holy Spirit, come to understand the general MEANING and reasons, SPIRITUALLY, for the whole Plan of God, and this must include the age of the Church.

Again, as I’ve said, the world will end only when God, as stated above, can no longer bring a greater spiritual good into humanity, that is, that at the end, humanity will fall away from the truth in such a manner that they no longer will be able to be restored to the Gospel. That is, God can only draw so much good from sin before sin comes to reign in an incurable manner in human history, and that is the condition that will exist in the very end. But clearly, in order for the Church to be able to discern when that condition will exist, they will need to be able to analyze the entire meaning and progress of salvation history, a process that is spiritual, so as to understand when God will have drawn all possible greater good through the Redemption of His Son. But clearly, such an insight can not merely be had through analysis of the Old Testament but also of the very age of the Church herself. Hence, this attitude of “what lies between the first century and the last century of Catholicism is irrelevant” cannot be true, for the age of the Church is the great completion of the Divine Plan for Redemption, and so there will need to be some spiritual structure present within the ages of the Church, based on the Tradition of Scipture and Oral Tradition, as well as really realizing the implications of what these fully mean, in order for the Church to discern when humanity gets into an incurable apostasy.

I don’t know, I guess I’m rambling, but I need to try to organize this better so as to explain what I mean.

Does this help at all or not?

If not, i have an article on my site: Why both futurists and preterists miss the point, if you;'re interested.

Again, I think it’s an issue that at the very end, the Church will discern the full meaning and purpose of the Divine Wisdom in His whole Plan and how He will have done everything He could to bring the greatest possible good in salvation history.

Thank you.

My position, as I said before, it that John is not Nostrademus. His visions and prophesies are eschatalogical, not historical. We cannot use Revelation to forecast the weather, the stock market, or the next war or other calamity. John’s message is eternal – the past, present and future are all one in Revelation.

 

[spauline]

Thank you.

My position, as I said before, it that John is not Nostrademus. His visions and prophesies are eschatalogical, not historical. We cannot use Revelation to forecast the weather, the stock market, or the next war or other calamity. John’s message is eternal – the past, present and future are all one in Revelation.

Dear Vern,

I appreciate your response and thank you for accepting my apology. Although I would once again emphasize that my approach has nothing to do with predicting the weather, stock market, another war, or meteorites, etc. What I’m talking about is analyzing Church history through a spiritual lense. For example, the idea of how the world has grown progressively worse spiritually especially beginning with Protestantism. that is, I know full well that the apoc has nothing to do with specific stocks and nations. but, on the other hand, Catholicism formally recognizes classes of religions, intermediate spiritual states between the fullness of truth and the fullness of lies. More specifically, the CCC itself discerns Islam, Schism, Heresy, Historical Reductionism, as well as the fully apostate secular messianism. Hence, the notion that these religious conditions are typified in Scripture, as well as the fact that these religious depravities have made their imprint in Church history, does not seem to me to be the same as wanting to predict wars and stock markets. for as Christ prayed, that they may be “one”, the issue of these intermediate conditions and wounds to unity is itself part of public revelation, and hence believing that the apocalypse may deal with this is not “Nostradumism” or “tabloid fundie sensationalism”.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Dear Vern,

I appreciate your response and thank you for accepting my apology. Although I would once again emphasize that my approach has nothing to do with predicting the weather, stock market, another war, or meteorites, etc. What I’m talking about is analyzing Church history through a spiritual lense. For example, the idea of how the world has grown progressively worse spiritually especially beginning with Protestantism. that is, I know full well that the apoc has nothing to do with specific stocks and nations. but, on the other hand, Catholicism formally recognizes classes of religions, intermediate spiritual states between the fullness of truth and the fullness of lies. More specifically, the CCC itself discerns Islam, Schism, Heresy, Historical Reductionism, as well as the fully apostate secular messianism. Hence, the notion that these religious conditions are typified in Scripture, as well as the fact that these religious depravities have made their imprint in Church history, does not seem to me to be the same as wanting to predict wars and stock markets. for as Christ prayed, that they may be “one”, the issue of these intermediate conditions and wounds to unity is itself part of public revelation, and hence believing that the apocalypse may deal with this is not “Nostradumism” or “tabloid fundie sensationalism”.

Yes – but John did not “predict” these things. He wrote a timeless message based on the world in which he lived. We can best understand his message as being about his own times – and see how the Church will ultimately triumph over many unspecified tribulations.

 

[spauline]

Yes – but John did not “predict” these things. He wrote a timeless message based on the world in which he lived. We can best understand his message as being about his own times – and see how the Church will ultimately triumph over many unspecified tribulations.

well, I don’t know, there is the reality there will be a FINAL manifestation of apostasy that will be incurable, and it is implied by the CCC, precisely by citing 2 Thess 2 on “the mystery of inquity” that the Church will discern that condition when it arises. hence, if there is absolutely no structure to the Church age that can be discerned beyond a mere unspecified idealism, how will the Church recognize when humanity reaches an incurable condition of sin? I’m not saying idealism is wrong. It can be legitimate as one layer of meaning. What I’m saying is, I fail to understand how the apoc subject can be MERE idealism and nothing more, seeing as the ups and downs do not continue indefinitely.

Nor am I saying that we are at the end now. but, really, how do you look at this?

 

[vern_humphrey]

well, I don’t know, there is the reality there will be a FINAL manifestation of apostasy that will be incurable, and it is implied by the CCC, precisely by citing 2 Thess 2 on “the mystery of inquity” that the Church will discern that condition when it arises. hence, if there is absolutely no structure to the Church age that can be discerned beyond a mere unspecified idealism, how will the Church recognize when humanity reaches an incurable condition of sin? I’m not saying idealism is wrong. It can be legitimate as one layer of meaning. What I’m saying is, I fail to understand how the apoc subject can be MERE idealism and nothing more, seeing as the ups and downs do not continue indefinitely.

Nor am I saying that we are at the end now. but, really, how do you look at this?

As I said, I believe John wrote to accomplish four aims related to Domitian’s persecution:

1. To strengthen the Church for the ordeal.
2. To comfort those suffering under persecution.
3. To discourage voluntary martyrdom.
4. To explain why bad things happen to good people.

In the process, he depicted a “war” between Christianity and the Roman Empire – and predicted that the Church would win. In fact, he shows the Church has already won, through the sacrifice of Christ.

The message is timeless – the Church will always face persecution – as we do in our own times. Therefore his book is as fresh today as when it was written.

 

[Tom317]

As I said, I believe John wrote to accomplish four aims related to Domitian’s persecution:

1. To strengthen the Church for the ordeal.
2. To comfort those suffering under persecution.
3. To discourage voluntary martyrdom.
4. To explain why bad things happen to good people.

In the process, he depicted a “war” between Christianity and the Roman Empire – and predicted that the Church would win. In fact, he shows the Church has already won, through the sacrifice of Christ.

The message is timeless – the Church will always face persecution – as we do in our own times. Therefore his book is as fresh today as when it was written.

I agree with everything you wrote in this post, except for one point. I feel John described all of the spiritual and real battles the Church would face through the course of history.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I agree with everything you wrote in this post, except for one point. I feel John described all of the spiritual and real battles the Church would face through the course of history.

I would say you might say he forecast coming problems by analogy. But there is no hard-and-fast prediction we can find that will tell us what will happen next year, next century, or next millinium.

 

[Tom317]

I would say you might say he forecast coming problems by analogy. But there is no hard-and-fast prediction we can find that will tell us what will happen next year, next century, or next millinium.

That is not true. We can see the general activities that are in the future, such as the anti-Christ, tribulation, great wars, etc…we just cannot tell exactly when they will happen. That is the main reason why Revelation cannot be used as a means to predict Jesus’ return, for the language does not reveal to us the time.

It is quite easy to see our current time as being the beginning of the tribulation because of the state of Christianity across the globe. But, we have no way to be sure because the time is not revealed, only the general events.

 

[vern_humphrey]

That is not true. We can see the general activities that are in the future, such as the anti-Christ, tribulation, great wars, etc…we just cannot tell exactly when they will happen. That is the main reason why Revelation cannot be used as a means to predict Jesus’ return, for the language does not reveal to us the time.

The Anti-Christ was already abroad in John’s time – Nero/Domitian. The beast with the healed wound in his throat is Nero, come back to life (according to the legend Nero Revividus, which John plays on) as Domitian.

Tribulations and wars we have with us always – no need to see a special prohesy there.

It is quite easy to see our current time as being the beginning of the tribulation because of the state of Christianity across the globe. But, we have no way to be sure because the time is not revealed, only the general events.

Or we might not be in the beginning of the tribulation at all. Or we might have been in it for a long time. Or it might be just around the corner. Or in the far distant future.

 

[Tom317]

The Anti-Christ was already abroad in John’s time – Nero/Domitian. The beast with the healed wound in his throat is Nero, come back to life (according to the legend Nero Revividus, which John plays on) as Domitian.

Tribulations and wars we have with us always – no need to see a special prohesy there.

Or we might not be in the beginning of the tribulation at all. Or we might have been in it for a long time. Or it might be just around the corner. Or in the far distant future.

We will not agree because we see the book in very different light.

I see it as a narrative history of the Church era, from inception to end. You see it mainly as a discourse of the early Church.

 

[spauline]

I would say you might say he forecast coming problems by analogy. But there is no hard-and-fast prediction we can find that will tell us what will happen next year, next century, or next millinium.

time periods are not the issue. For “it is not for you to know times or seasons.” On the other hand, “when you see these things, know that he is near”

It’s the notion not that we know “times” but the successive ages: the Church is persecuted by pagans. the Martyrs win, Christianity triumphs. but then beyond the purgation is the illumination: the devil gradually undue the spiritual victory by attacking the sources of divine truth from top to bottom:

I. the Trinity and Incarnation (the beginning heresies, Islam)
II. the Pope (Great Schism)
III. the Rest of Bishops and Oral Tradition (Protestantism)
IV. Even the Written Tradition (Enlightenment)
V. Even Reason (modern apostasy)

A. the Minor Chastistment (nothing specific about when or how)
B. the Great Restoration or Age of Peace (when and how long not known)

C. the Great Apostasy and Trib
D. Second Coming

We can surmise that St. John knew all these stages in terms of the order of their succession and why they unfold this way, without the “when” and “duration of each”.

but your position seems to be, there is no structure to Church history, just myriads of random ups and downs that have no logical succession or reason to them.

 

[vern_humphrey]

but your position seems to be, there is no structure to Church history, just myriads of random ups and downs that have no logical succession or reason to them.

Nope. My position is that prophesy is best understood in the context of the prophet’s own times. Saint John was not a proto-Nostrademus.

 

[Tom317]

Nope. My position is that prophesy is best understood in the context of the prophet’s own times. Saint John was not a proto-Nostrademus.

It depends on whether you believe St. John was simply writing what he was given, or if he just made it up. If he wrote what he was given, then he is basically a reporter, not a prophet.

 

[vern_humphrey]

It depends on whether you believe St. John was simply writing what he was given, or if he just made it up. If he wrote what he was given, then he is basically a reporter, not a prophet.

Not at all. The Catholic position is that scripture is inerrant within the intent of the inspired author. To understand scripture, we must understand the intent. Did John mean to reveal the future in great detail, or did he mean to deal with the here-and-now, leaving us an inspired book that applies to the ages as well?

I see no evidence he meant to predict the future – that is, the temporal future – but instead meant to deal with the problems of his age in an eschatological manner, which by it’s universal nature speaks to us today.