What Does Revelations Say?

[vern_humphrey]

That’s what I’m saying about the NT data: that, most likely, when the final age of sin is present in human history (whenever that will be), the Church will look back in hindsight and see the bigger picture that preceded them .

And that’s my point.

There is no doubt calamaties will overtake us – calamaties are always overtaking us. But only with hindsight will we be able to say, “Okay, that calamity kinda looks like it might be what John is talking about.”

During my second tour in Viet Nam, the Brigade Intelligence officer, the S2 would predict every morning, “Camp Red Devil is going to be mortared.” One evening, two rounds of 60mm mortar hit the volley ball court.

The next day the S2 was ecstatic, “I predicted it! I predicted it!”

 

[HailMary]

There is no doubt calamaties will overtake us – calamaties are always overtaking us.

Calamaties will never overtake us (being the true Church - the spouse of Christ). That is a defeatist perspective.

If by calamaties, you mean, trials and tribulations, yes, we must endure this because as St. Augustine said,

God had one Son on earth without sin, but never one without suffering

St. John Chrystotom said, even thou Christ has won the battle, we still have to deal with the residual effects of Satan and his angels. The image he uses was that Christ cut off the head of Satan, but even thou he is headless now, his serpent body is still moving violently and causing destruction.

to quicky answer the question,
What Does Revelations Say?
Revelations is the story of the Christ and His Church. And for all those who think that there is some secret message in there, remember the name, REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST, meaning it was meant to be understood and not cryptic.

God Bless

 

[maryj]

I’m not sure you understand what I’m saying. There is a difference between a fundie who would say, “The minor chastisement will start in 2053 AD and here is a political outline of how all the individual nations will wage war against one another”, versus the Church discerning at some point: “We have seen the successive SPIRITUAL ages of the Church, and we now discern that the final age of sin is present (when that age is present).” For example, it is possible for a person who doesn’t know all the details to nevertheless know the GREAT ages of the OT history from the Fall all the way to Christ. It would not be necessary to know the exact years and duration of these ages, but just an understanding of what was going on spiritually, and that this process is understood through spiritual psychology.

That’s what I’m saying about the NT data: that, most likely, when the final age of sin is present in human history (whenever that will be), the Church will look back in hindsight and see the bigger picture that preceded them (Pagan Resistance to Conversion, Christianity’s first triumph over paganism, Catholic Christendom of the Middle Ages, The Protestant Rev, the Enlightenment, the Modern Minor Apostasy, the Minor Chas, the glorious reunion of Christians and restoration of faith, the Great Apostasy) and discern how Scripture and Tradition prefigured these ages through doctrinal development, and then subsequently recognize that the final apostasy is then present.

In other words, if the OT can be summarized by spiritual SUBages, that’s what I’m saying may be veiled in the whole Public Deposit of Scripture and Tradition for the NT era, and that the Church will eventually come to understand these, hence giving it the “fullness of understanding” of the psychology of God’s Plan.

I’m not saying I know for certain, like I’m some sort of “prophet” rolleyes: ), I’m saying, can’t even an educated lay person at least mediatate on these questions? For if nobody in the Church ever looks into the issue, how will it ever be known. Again, I don’t know anything for sure. But I am interested, not in knowing “the future” for the sake of knowing the “future”, but UNDERSTANDING the Divine Plan, the psychology and meaning and reasons behind it, not stupid temporal details, but the successive spiritual developments that reveal something of the Mystery of God.

You might want to check out the rules for posting in apologetics forum under “consolidated stickys for the apologetics forum” post #8 rule #6. wouldn’t want anyone on this thread to get banned…Now back on the subject…

 

[Tom317]

Calamaties will never overtake us (being the true Church - the spouse of Christ). That is a defeatist perspective.

If by calamaties, you mean, trials and tribulations, yes, we must endure this because as St. Augustine said,

St. John Chrystotom said, even thou Christ has won the battle, we still have to deal with the residual effects of Satan and his angels. The image he uses was that Christ cut off the head of Satan, but even thou he is headless now, his serpent body is still moving violently and causing destruction.

to quicky answer the question,
What Does Revelations Say?
Revelations is the story of the Christ and His Church. And for all those who think that there is some secret message in there, remember the name, REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST, meaning it was meant to be understood and not cryptic.

God Bless

Yes, but clearly for 2,000 years the vast majority of people, even in the Church, do not fully understand the book. So, if that is not cryptic, then I am not sure what is.

 

[maryj]

Yes, but clearly for 2,000 years the vast majority of people, even in the Church, do not fully understand the book. So, if that is not cryptic, then I am not sure what is.

But the church does understand!!

 

[spauline]

Yes, and perhaps to help save some souls if we can read the signs.

well, here I would actually agree with the liberals: WE MUST ALWAYS BE ABOUT SAVING SOULS. For people can go to hell in any age. I surmise that even in Catholic Christendom, when the Church’s influence was at its peak, mortal sin was still common and confession was often needed.

What I’m talking about is more UNDERSTANDING the Divine Plan, recognizing, first ,what the fullness of the Gentiles will be, and then, secondly, discerning when humanity gets into, historically, not individually, an incurable apostasy.

Sort of like Hebrews 6: once a person experiences the “fullness” of the Redemption of Christ, if they apostatize, the author is saying it will usually be PRACTICALLY (alhtough not absolutely) impossible for the person to be restored.

But so then one of the biggest Q’s in this regard is, was Catholic Christendom the fullness of the Gentiles? Or could God perhaps restore humanity to faith and give to the world a greater share in the Redemption, at least a temporary age of peace in which the near whole of the world embraces Christ and His Church? For there are pessimistic augustinians who think, “there will most likely never be such an age of peace because sin is always significantly present”, versus the general position of the mystics, which is there is an intermediate apostasy that is healed through an epic chastisment that manifests the full consequences of all non-Catholic errors in such a way that it restores humanity to the Gospel through a crisis, in much the same way that God restored the Jews to their Covenant through the crisis of the exile.

 

[M-Dent]

What Does Revelations Say?
Revelations is the story of the Christ and His Church. And for all those who think that there is some secret message in there, remember the name, REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST, meaning it was meant to be understood and not cryptic.

It certainly lead to centuries of ‘speculative theology.’ And remains a difficult writing to truly discern all it’s meaning and inspiration.

One thing I am grateful for in this thread - it hasn’t lead to the silly lets play the 666 name game.

 

[spauline]

You might want to check out the rules for posting in apologetics forum under “consolidated stickys for the apologetics forum” post #8 rule #6. wouldn’t want anyone on this thread to get banned…Now back on the subject…

Yes, actually, you are right! I do apologize. Yes, it is a bad habit of me to use derogotory terms like “fundie”. I will take effort not to use this term in the future, for truly they are our separated brothers and sisters, many of whom are more committed to Christ in their subjective condition than many Catholics.

And so I wish to apologize to any evangelicals who read this, in the future, I will use the term Fundamentalist.

Thank you for pointing this out Mary.
scott

 

[spauline]

But the church does understand!!

And please let me emphasize that I too beleive the Church understands. I guess what I mean is, the understandings and layers of meaning become deeper. Or put another way, more implications of what is contained in the deposit of faith are realized, ie., doctrinal development. But let me once again clarify that all of the layers proposed by general Catholic theologians can be legit, provided nothing contradicts already existing teaching. In other words, I’m not at all advocating, “this is interpretation is right, and all others are wrong.” From what i understand, there are at least four layers of meaning possible from the get go, all at once: preterism, futurism, idealism, historicism, and from what I gather, Catholics have freedom to explore any of these levels provided they remain within the confines of settled doctrine, and none of it needs to be exclusive of the others. Scripture is rich, many times having many latyers of meaning at once.

 

[Tom317]

well, here I would actually agree with the liberals: WE MUST ALWAYS BE ABOUT SAVING SOULS. For people can go to hell in any age. I surmise that even in Catholic Christendom, when the Church’s influence was at its peak, mortal sin was still common and confession was often needed.

What I’m talking about is more UNDERSTANDING the Divine Plan, recognizing, first ,what the fullness of the Gentiles will be, and then, secondly, discerning when humanity gets into, historically, not individually, an incurable apostasy.

Sort of like Hebrews 6: once a person experiences the “fullness” of the Redemption of Christ, if they apostatize, the author is saying it will usually be PRACTICALLY (alhtough not absolutely) impossible for the person to be restored.

But so then one of the biggest Q’s in this regard is, was Catholic Christendom the fullness of the Gentiles? Or could God perhaps restore humanity to faith and give to the world a greater share in the Redemption, at least a temporary age of peace in which the near whole of the world embraces Christ and His Church? For there are pessimistic augustinians who think, “there will most likely never be such an age of peace because sin is always significantly present”, versus the general position of the mystics, which is there is an intermediate apostasy that is healed through an epic chastisment that manifests the full consequences of all non-Catholic errors in such a way that it restores humanity to the Gospel through a crisis, in much the same way that God restored the Jews to their Covenant through the crisis of the exile.

I believe we are very likely at the beginning of the tribulation and at the beginning of the great apostasy…so we would agree in the events, but probably not in the details.

 

[Tom317]

But the church does understand!!

The Church does not declare any understanding of the book. It uses select passages as support for some of its teachings. It has never declared what the many cryptic passages mean.

 

[spauline]

I believe we are very likely at the beginning of the tribulation and at the beginning of the great apostasy…so we would agree in the events, but probably not in the details.

well, no no no, I do NOT believe that this is the great apostasy! I don’t believe we’re in a chastisement. A Chastisement? You’ve got to be kidding! The vast majority of the global north is not in any major war. I mean the Iraq war is nothing. More babies are killed by abortion in a month than the total number of persons that have died in that war.

Not only that, the Minor Chas is conditional. I personally feel it’ll probably have to come because humanity continues in apostasy more or less and doesn’t listen. But no, the coming chastisement, if it comes, I don’t believe is the end. I agree with EWTN that it is the vehicle for the great restoration of faith. For there are TWO sabbaths, not one. The New Creation fulfills the eighth day, but what about the seventh? No, even if “entire nations are annihilated”, as Our Lady warns, there will follow the greatest moral miracle short only of the New Creation itself: the reunion of Christians and the glorious restoration of Catholicism throughout the world. Perhaps even a “millennium of Springtime”. No, only after the world falls away AFTER the glorious age of peace will it have no excuse, will it be irredeemable. For the modern world is not yet, IMHO, utterly deserving of punishment, for the roots of the modern apostasy are ultimately the fault of hypocritical Catholic clergy that was the seed of the unimaginable division in Christianity. No, Christ has yet to heal the wounds of division, in order that the “world may believe that [the Father] sent [Christ]”.

 

[Tom317]

well, no no no, I do NOT believe that this is the great apostasy! I don’t believe we’re in a chastisement. A Chastisement? You’ve got to be kidding! The vast majority of the global north is not in any major war. I mean the Iraq war is nothing. More babies are killed by abortion in a month than the total number of persons that have died in that war.

Not only that, the Minor Chas is conditional. I personally feel it’ll probably have to come because humanity continues in apostasy more or less and doesn’t listen. But no, the coming chastisement, if it comes, I don’t believe is the end. I agree with EWTN that it is the vehicle for the great restoration of faith. For there are TWO sabbaths, not one. The New Creation fulfills the eighth day, but what about the seventh? No, even if “entire nations are annihilated”, as Our Lady warns, there will follow the greatest moral miracle short only of the New Creation itself: the reunion of Christians and the glorious restoration of Catholicism throughout the world. Perhaps even a “millennium of Springtime”. No, only after the world falls away AFTER the glorious age of peace will it have no excuse, will it be irredeemable. For the modern world is not yet, IMHO, utterly deserving of punishment, for the roots of the modern apostasy are ultimately the fault of hypocritical Catholic clergy that was the seed of the unimaginable division in Christianity. No, Christ has yet to heal the wounds of division, in order that the “world may believe that [the Father] sent [Christ]”.

Now you are catching on. The Bible tells us the vast numbers that will be wiped out, but it does not tell us precisley how. Abortion and birth control has likely wiped out at least one billion people, I would say that is a failry unprecendented slaughter of innocent humans.

 

[spauline]

Now you are catching on. The Bible tells us the vast numbers that will be wiped out, but it does not tell us precisley how. Abortion and birth control has likely wiped out at least one billion people, I would say that is a failry unprecendented slaughter of innocent humans.

well, like what, are you refering to the sixth trumpet per chance? If that is the case, here, we are departing. In the Middle Ages, supposedly a third of Europe died in the Black Plague. But that has nothing to do with the apocalypse. So what if a third of humanity died a PHYSICAL death? If these people ultimately wind up saved, then that is not tragic. and there is good chance that many of the third of the Middle Ages who died in the Plague WERE saved, seeing as most people practiced Catholicism and would then consequently had access to Extreme Unction and Confession.

But, hey, if a third of mankind were to die a SUPERNATURAL death, that is a real tragedy, and that is basically what happened in the Enlightenment. In the “Enlightenment”, the supernatural essence of relgiion was cast aside, in exchange for a merely “natural” religion, namely, infidelity. That, then, to me, seems more in line with Catholic thought as the sixth trumpet than that LITERALISTCIALLY a third of humanity dying (physically).

 

[Tom317]

well, like what, are you refering to the sixth trumpet per chance? If that is the case, here, we are departing. In the Middle Ages, supposedly a third of Europe died in the Black Plague. But that has nothing to do with the apocalypse. So what if a third of humanity died a PHYSICAL death? If these people ultimately wind up saved, then that is not tragic. and there is good chance that many of the third of the Middle Ages who died in the Plague WERE saved, seeing as most people practiced Catholicism and would then consequently had access to Extreme Unction and Confession.

But, hey, if a third of mankind were to die a SUPERNATURAL death, that is a real tragedy, and that is basically what happened in the Enlightenment. In the “Enlightenment”, the supernatural essence of relgiion was cast aside, in exchange for a merely “natural” religion, namely, infidelity. That, then, to me, seems more in line with Catholic thought as the sixth trumpet than that LITERALISTCIALLY a third of humanity dying (physically).

See, you are catching on as I said.

80% of Catholics reject part of the faith, and many critical beleifs such as the Real Presence.

The Christian world is all but dead in Europe, and dying fast in many other places.

I would personally guess that 90% of the Christian world no longers hold fast to the faith Christ gave, which certainly places them at great spiritual risk.

So, we have a huge spiritual apostasy going on as we write these posts, and we have a huge unprecendented slaughter of innocents to the tune of 1/6 of mankind, and still counting.

 

[spauline]

See, you are catching on as I said.

80% of Catholics reject part of the faith, and many critical beleifs such as the Real Presence.

The Christian world is all but dead in Europe, and dying fast in many other places.

I would personally guess that 90% of the Christian world no longers hold fast to the faith Christ gave, which certainly places them at great spiritual risk.

So, we have a huge spiritual apostasy going on as we write these posts, and we have a huge unprecendented slaughter of innocents to the tune of 1/6 of mankind, and still counting.

well, I’m not sure what you are suggesting, but I don’t believe the sixth trumpet is meant to be taken as PHYSICAL death, nor do I see it as an UTTER apostasy. For a fuller explanation, I might refer you to my article that goes over the whole issue:

The Seal, the Mark, and Everything in Between

Toward this end, I see the final trumpets (or three Great Woes) as, respectively:

The Protestant Revolt
The Enlightenment
The Modern Secular Apostasy

Toward that end, I say we are already past the sixth trumpet. The “beast and false prophet” are already present in an allegorical sense: the Church itself condemns secular messianism, the late Holy Father called materialism the false prophet of our day. A comment though: the beast is multi-layered. It doesn’t refer merely to the big guy AC at the very end. In its broadest sense, it is fulfilled in any of the great ages of sin throughout salvation history.

But anyway, again, I don’t take the sixth trumpet as literal physical death. I take it as supernatural death, yet one that retains, at least in its first stage, natural goodness. For deists and rationalists are not TOTALLY depraved, for they still admit at least the necessity of a natural religious disposition, in the sense that there is some God up there who should be honored, that one should strive for the natural law that is rather evident from creation, and that one should feel remorse to the degree that one fails in this. But the essence of their supernatural death is that they no longer admit either the possibility or even the necessity of Divine Intervention or Revelation. But for the previous goodness just mentioned, they cannot be relegated to status of utter children of the devil. That is reserved for the imagery of the false prophet, the utterly false logos that denies the totality of the sources of divine truth and goodness, even reason, which the deists and rationalists at least retain.

 

[maryj]

Yes, actually, you are right! I do apologize. Yes, it is a bad habit of me to use derogotory terms like “fundie”. I will take effort not to use this term in the future, for truly they are our separated brothers and sisters, many of whom are more committed to Christ in their subjective condition than many Catholics.

And so I wish to apologize to any evangelicals who read this, in the future, I will use the term Fundamentalist.

Thank you for pointing this out Mary.
scott

You are more than welcome. I am very much enjoying your posts. Let us continue…

 

[Odell]

I think the Mass can be seen in a great deal of Scripture, yet imo Revelation is a narrative history of the Church. It is similar to the woman clothed with the sun, she can be seen symbolically as Mary, yet I believe the literal interpreatation is the woman represents the Church.

There are many senses to Scripture, so Scott Hahn’s interpretation can be seen as correct on a symbolic level, yet I do not think he is correct suing the literal sense.

This is what the Catechism says

I. Who Celebrates?

1136
Liturgy is an “action” of the whole Christ (Christus totus). Those who even now celebrate it without signs are already in the heavenly liturgy, where celebration is wholly communion and feast.
The celebrants of the heavenly liturgy

1137
The book of Revelation of St. John, read in the Church’s liturgy, first reveals to us, “A throne stood in heaven, with one seated on the throne”: "the Lord God."1 It then shows the Lamb, “standing, as though it had been slain”: Christ crucified and risen, the one high priest of the true sanctuary, the same one "who offers and is offered, who gives and is given."2 Finally it presents “the river of the water of life . . . flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb,” one of most beautiful symbols of the Holy Spirit.3

1138
“Recapitulated in Christ,” these are the ones who take part in the service of the praise of God and the fulfillment of his plan: the heavenly powers, all creation (the four living beings), the servants of the Old and New Covenants (the twenty-four elders), the new People of God (the one hundred and forty-four thousand),4 especially the martyrs “slain for the word of God,” and the all-holy Mother of God (the Woman), the Bride of the Lamb,5 and finally "a great multitude which no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes, and peoples and tongues."6

1139
It is in this eternal liturgy that the Spirit and the Church enable us to participate whenever we celebrate the mystery of salvation in the sacraments.

So its not just Scott Hanns interpritation but the Churhes.

And I would like for you to know im not arguing. I do believe there are several plausible interpritations. but i think this is the strongest.

We are fighting the spiritual battle at mass that is what John was seeing the fight that we take place in. I dont think it is just a futurestic battle but one we can be part of now.

 

[Tom317]

This is what the Catechism says

I. Who Celebrates?

1136
Liturgy is an “action” of the whole Christ (Christus totus). Those who even now celebrate it without signs are already in the heavenly liturgy, where celebration is wholly communion and feast.
The celebrants of the heavenly liturgy

1137
The book of Revelation of St. John, read in the Church’s liturgy, first reveals to us, “A throne stood in heaven, with one seated on the throne”: "the Lord God."1 It then shows the Lamb, “standing, as though it had been slain”: Christ crucified and risen, the one high priest of the true sanctuary, the same one "who offers and is offered, who gives and is given."2 Finally it presents “the river of the water of life . . . flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb,” one of most beautiful symbols of the Holy Spirit.3

1138
“Recapitulated in Christ,” these are the ones who take part in the service of the praise of God and the fulfillment of his plan: the heavenly powers, all creation (the four living beings), the servants of the Old and New Covenants (the twenty-four elders), the new People of God (the one hundred and forty-four thousand),4 especially the martyrs “slain for the word of God,” and the all-holy Mother of God (the Woman), the Bride of the Lamb,5 and finally "a great multitude which no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes, and peoples and tongues."6

1139
It is in this eternal liturgy that the Spirit and the Church enable us to participate whenever we celebrate the mystery of salvation in the sacraments.

So its not just Scott Hanns interpritation but the Churhes.

And I would like for you to know im not arguing. I do believe there are several plausible interpritations. but i think this is the strongest.

We are fighting the spiritual battle at mass that is what John was seeing the fight that we take place in. I dont think it is just a futurestic battle but one we can be part of now.

Yes, and notice most of this is symbolism, and is not an interpretation of the entire book of Revelation, as I said before.
I never doubted that many passages in Revelation can be seen as pointing to the Liturgy, yet I also believe their is literal interpretation that goes far beyond the symbolic. Do not think I am saying the Church has it wrong, that would be utterly ridiculous. I am saying that the Church uses some parts of Revelation to support their teachings and to show the truths contained in the Liturgy.

Until the Church declares a formal interpretation of the book, I, and others, are free to believe as we will so long as our beliefs do not contradict any Church teachings.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Calamaties will never overtake us (being the true Church - the spouse of Christ). That is a defeatist perspective.

If by calamaties, you mean, trials and tribulations, yes, we must endure this because as St. Augustine said,

What did you think I meant?

Calamity – 1. Deep trouble or misery. 2. Any extreme misfortune, disaster.

It’s hard to deny that things like the genocide of the Armenian Christians in 1915, the Holocaust, and other disasters don’t qualify.

St. John Chrystotom said, even thou Christ has won the battle, we still have to deal with the residual effects of Satan and his angels. The image he uses was that Christ cut off the head of Satan, but even thou he is headless now, his serpent body is still moving violently and causing destruction.

to quicky answer the question,
What Does Revelations Say?
Revelations is the story of the Christ and His Church. And for all those who think that there is some secret message in there, remember the name, REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST, meaning it was meant to be understood and not cryptic.

God Bless

Which is why I say it can best be understood by examining John’s four aims, not by trying to winkle out hidden meanings from various pericopes.