What Does Revelations Say?

[Tom317]

well, I’m not sure what you are suggesting, but I don’t believe the sixth trumpet is meant to be taken as PHYSICAL death, nor do I see it as an UTTER apostasy. For a fuller explanation, I might refer you to my article that goes over the whole issue:

The Seal, the Mark, and Everything in Between

Toward this end, I see the final trumpets (or three Great Woes) as, respectively:

The Protestant Revolt
The Enlightenment
The Modern Secular Apostasy

Toward that end, I say we are already past the sixth trumpet. The “beast and false prophet” are already present in an allegorical sense: the Church itself condemns secular messianism, the late Holy Father called materialism the false prophet of our day. A comment though: the beast is multi-layered. It doesn’t refer merely to the big guy AC at the very end. In its broadest sense, it is fulfilled in any of the great ages of sin throughout salvation history.

But anyway, again, I don’t take the sixth trumpet as literal physical death. I take it as supernatural death, yet one that retains, at least in its first stage, natural goodness. For deists and rationalists are not TOTALLY depraved, for they still admit at least the necessity of a natural religious disposition, in the sense that there is some God up there who should be honored, that one should strive for the natural law that is rather evident from creation, and that one should feel remorse to the degree that one fails in this. But the essence of their supernatural death is that they no longer admit either the possibility or even the necessity of Divine Intervention or Revelation. But for the previous goodness just mentioned, they cannot be relegated to status of utter children of the devil. That is reserved for the imagery of the false prophet, the utterly false logos that denies the totality of the sources of divine truth and goodness, even reason, which the deists and rationalists at least retain.

I am trying to say that everything that is going on today tells me that we are at the fifth trumpet and very fast heading towards the sixth trumpet, and that the entire book of Revelation is one long narrative history of the Church. It is written in very cryptic and allegorical language that has caused great problems for interpreters through the course of Christianity.

I feel the first half of chapter nine and the fifth trumpet literally describes Luther and the Protestant revolt against the Church:

*And the fifth angel blew his trumpet, and I saw a star fallen from heaven to earth, *

==> The star is Luther (stars in the Apocalypse are members of the clergy, Bishops or Priests).

*and he was given the key of the shaft of the bottomless pit; *

==> Luther, having perverted his vocation, holds the key to open the pit.

and so on…

 

[spauline]

I am trying to say that everything that is going on today tells me that we are at the fifth trumpet and very fast heading towards the sixth trumpet, and that the entire book of Revelation is one long narrative history of the Church. It is written in very cryptic and allegorical language that has caused great problems for interpreters through the course of Christianity.

I feel the first half of chapter nine and the fifth trumpet literally describes Luther and the Protestant revolt against the Church:

*And the fifth angel blew his trumpet, and I saw a star fallen from heaven to earth, *

==> The star is Luther (stars in the Apocalypse are members of the clergy, Bishops or Priests).

*and he was given the key of the shaft of the bottomless pit; *

==> Luther, having perverted his vocation, holds the key to open the pit.

and so on…

well, I think that’s a good beginning, and I agree with this snippet to the best of my knowledge. But I would also say that we need to be systematic in our whole approach. Toward that end, if you haven’t read my “Why Both Futurists and Preterists miss the point”, I’d suggest that first.

Perhaps you will allow me to elaborate, and excuse me if I tell you stuff that some of which you quite probably already know, but that I will nevertheless review so as to best present my point.

We need to understand that the essence of history, both Old and New, is driven by spiritual forces. Even in the OT, this was the case, although the Gentiles were basically clueless of this, and the Jews were but only getting a little taste of it. But Christ has now revealed the ultimate underlying force that impacts human history: the spiritual. Prior to Christ, humanity asks, why is there evil? Why can there not be peace? The Jews basically felt, well, when the Messiah comes, he’ll fix everything politically. Christ says, you don’t get it! The greatest of sufferings are from moral evil, and moral evil exists because you are fallen spiritually. A mere political leader cannot fix things. Human hearts must be transformed, healed, one by one. For if man has not peace with God, all the more so will he not have peace with his fellow man, who is imperfect and fallen.

So what is ultimately driving Church history is a spiritual process. What humanity needs to be healed is to be healed in the two faculties of soul, intellect and will. His intellect is fallen because he does not know the truths about God and His Love, Nature, and relationship to man. His will is fallen because it lacks the supernatural grace of God to give it the power to live the truths that he still does not know.

But so then the devil’s ultimate end is to prevent this renewal. That is, he wants not so much to kill people literally but rather kill them spiritually, i.e., he wants people in Hell. How do people go to Hell? By dying in mortal sin. What is mortal sin: to commit a grave act with full culpablity in intellect and will. Full culpability in intellect can either be they have full knowledge, or else they take no serious pains even to form their intellect. But so then the more a person knows about God, the more likely they will be to pursue the truths of God. So then what must the devil do? Get them either to not know or not believe in these truths as much as possible. For how did the devil get Eve to take the fruit (figuratively). By first telling her she didn’t need to believe in what God had said. Hence, in the overall scheme, the devil wishes to undermine how much truth people either believe or will accept, so as to make his job of getting them into hell all the more easy

Now consider this: when Christ formed the Church, the war starts: for Christ has opened the fullness of truth and grace for all humanity. and the truth is like a lion, it is its own defense (Scott Hahn?). But so then, the devil has to try to stop it from overtaking humanity. So he must lie about the true nature of Christians. They are cannibals, seditionists, traitors. Well it backfires because the blood of the martyrs speaks louder than his lies. So then he was cast from heaven. No longer does he hold dominion over humanity, for with Constantine, the Church has triumphed. Paganism is becoming a thing of the past.

… continued

 

[spauline]

… continued

Now what does the devil do? Well, what are his options? So long as humanity remains convinced of the truth of Catholicism, he’s probably out of luck, as I said. So then what other options does the devil have except to get humanity to disbelieve as much of Catholicism as he can.

But can he do it overnight? Can he immediately after Constantine get humanity to totally cast aside all sources of Divine Truth that they’ve just been brought into? Uh, no, I don’t think so. Ever heard of boiling a frog? You can’t place a frog in a pot of water that is already boiling. He’ll jump out. So then he needs to work gradually. But then what approach does he take? How does he go about gradually diminishing the truths and sources of Divine Truth that humanity believes in? Well, let’s just look at the facts, especially since history and the lessons of history are behind us.

… continued

Clearly, we discern that Catholicism formally defines sources of Divine Truth, and we have seen that they are not all equal in reliability. Obviously, it would not make sense for the devil to attack the most evident of sources first and work toward the least evident. For if the devil were able to first get the world to reject the most evident sources, it would imply they already reject the lesser evident ones. For example, if somebody does not even live according to reason, why in the heck would they listen to an Orthodox priest? Let alone the notion of the Trinity, which transcends reason? So then clearly the devil must work backwards. Start with the ***least *evident sources of truth and gradually work toward the more evident ones. **

But this is basically what the devil has already done. For clearly, based upon evidency, the sources are as follows, from least evident (but MOST reliable) to most evident (but LEAST reliable):

I. the Trinity and Incarnation
II. the Pope
III. the Rest of Apostolic Succession and Oral Tradition
IV. the Written Tradition
V. Reason

This then is the history of the Church since Constantine: the devil is basically getting humanity to cast aside more and more of the truths and sources of the truths of Mother Church until there is basically nothing left. For again, the less truth a person believes about God, let alone knows ,the more likely they are to commit serious sins and end up in hell.

The point I’m making is that spiritual attacks are the source of what is truly driving the history of humanity since the Church’s relative freedom from paganism. For, as I have said, and as Christ has revealed, what ultimately underlies the relationships between persons and socities is precisely tied to their spiritual condition. And the spiritual condition of persons and societies is inseparable from how much truth about God the people believe, and, for that matter, are willing to accept.

The connotation is then this, what I propose: the Seal and the Mark are metaphors for this spiritual process. In the beginning, then, of Chapter 7, just preceding the trumpets, we have those who are “Sealed” by God in the forehead. What does the forehead cover? The mind. What is the purpose of the mind? To contemplate truth, which it does via the intellect of the soul. So then, does not the Seal represent those who shall be “virgins” not in a literal sense but in a spiritual sense, that is, their INTELELCTS shall not be corrupted by any stain of impurity. They shall preserve the truths of God in all their purity. But how can this be except these 144,000 represent the faithful Catholics of all ages, for no person can preserve in his soul the fullness of truth with no admixture of error, save with the protection of the Magisterium of the RCC, which infallibly guides the faithful into “all truth”, which is itself the “pillar and ground of the truth.”

… continued

 

[spauline]

… continued…

What then is the opposite end of the Trumpets, the Mark of the Beast? Does it not represent the total antithesis of a faithful Catholic, a person who will hear NONE of the truths of God, nor will listen to any of the sources of Divine Truth? A person who is UTTERLY impure in their intellect, with no trace of light whatsoever. But does not such utter depravity already exist in our own time, especially with the two great and fully apostate ideologies of the global North: atheistic materialism, and relativistic, hedonistic materialism? So then as JPII pointed out, the false prophet is already here, especially in materialism! For materialism places its faith in this world alone. Even natural religion is of no concern, which was at least held in the first stage of the Enlightenment.

But then also, how do we discern the intermediate states of faith between the full Catholic and the full Apostate? Are they not appropriately veiled in the trumpets, that “harm” their victims in the very same forehead, by causing them to cast aside some share of the truth, or at least some source or sources of Divine Truth? That is the basis for my analysis of the Trumpets, and associatedly, the Seal and Mark. From this perspective, we are truly looking at the history of the Church through a spiritual lense, getting at the root of the issue, which is a progressive undermining of humanity’s faith in the one true God, gradually digressing the doctrinal condition of the victims until, again, with the “Mark”, they become utterly depraved! For just as the Seal in the forehead means the human creature lovingly receives all of the truths of God and trusts in the sources of His Loving Veracities, so the Mark imprints on an individual the character of one who will hear nothing of what God has said. Who will hear neither the Trinity, nor Incarnation, nor the special mediated fatherhood of Rome, nor the general mediated fatherhood of Apostolic Succession and Oral Tradition, nor the Written Tradition, nor even reason itself, which is common to all humanity.

Well, I know this long, but that is my take on things.
Blessings!
Scott

 

[maryj]

I am trying to say that everything that is going on today tells me that we are at the fifth trumpet and very fast heading towards the sixth trumpet, and that the entire book of Revelation is one long narrative history of the Church. It is written in very cryptic and allegorical language that has caused great problems for interpreters through the course of Christianity.

I feel the first half of chapter nine and the fifth trumpet literally describes Luther and the Protestant revolt against the Church:

*And the fifth angel blew his trumpet, and I saw a star fallen from heaven to earth, *

==> The star is Luther (stars in the Apocalypse are members of the clergy, Bishops or Priests).

*and he was given the key of the shaft of the bottomless pit; *

==> Luther, having perverted his vocation, holds the key to open the pit.

and so on…

For your consideration…how about this…
the fifth trumpet sounds. A power comet falls from the sky, plunges to the earth, with a force that opens up the very gates of hell. “It opened the passage to…the abyss” (verse 2).
biblical imagination thought of hell as a world underneath the earth. Actually there were two worlds.
One was Sheol, the abode of the dead who had died reconciled to God. It was a “waiting room” where the souls of the just were housed until redemption. In our creed we say that after his death, Jesus descended into hell. this was not the hell of the damned, but the resting place of the just. In Christian thinking Jesus met all the souls of history who had remained faithful to God. Jesus brought them the Good News of their imminent ressurection with Him and their forthcoming passage to heaven.

So… Christ is the star, who opens the gates that had been closed so that the souls who had remained faithful to God could go with Him to heaven. Dying He destroyed death, Rising He restored Life. Revelation the story of Christ and His Church.

 

[Lev23]

…

The connotation is then this, what I propose: the Seal and the Mark are metaphors for this spiritual process. In the beginning, then, of Chapter 7, just preceding the trumpets, we have those who are “Sealed” by God in the forehead. What does the forehead cover? The mind. What is the purpose of the mind? To contemplate truth, which it does via the intellect of the soul. So then, does not the Seal represent those who shall be “virgins” not in a literal sense but in a spiritual sense, that is, their INTELELCTS shall not be corrupted by any stain of impurity. They shall preserve the truths of God in all their purity. But how can this be except these 144,000 represent the faithful Catholics of all ages, for no person can preserve in his soul the fullness of truth with no admixture of error, save with the protection of the Magisterium of the RCC, which infallibly guides the faithful into “all truth”, which is itself the “pillar and ground of the truth.”

… continued

FYI, Jesus talks to the “churches” directly in Rev.3. If the 144,000 to be sealed are “Catholics of all ages”, why are the 144,000 referred to as from all of the 12 tribes of Israel?

 

[Lev23]

One of the very worst things that people try to tell you about Revelation is that it is all prophecy. That’s just not true and they mess up because they choose to believe that just because St. John saw something in a vision, that it is all prophetic and that it is for the future. If you read it, you see that that is simply not true. (Case in point: the fall of the dragon and his angels).

Man up and read the Word of God Bro!

You are absolutely 100% correct about it being all prophecy. Rev.1-3 sets the goundwork of who this prophecy is from, and then its go-time for the tribulation, which is all prophetic. Yes, I know there are spots where John was told to eat the scroll and at the very end of the book there is the warning about taking away or adding, etc., but everything else is prophetic

 

[Tom317]

For your consideration…how about this…
the fifth trumpet sounds. A power comet falls from the sky, plunges to the earth, with a force that opens up the very gates of hell. “It opened the passage to…the abyss” (verse 2).
biblical imagination thought of hell as a world underneath the earth. Actually there were two worlds.
One was Sheol, the abode of the dead who had died reconciled to God. It was a “waiting room” where the souls of the just were housed until redemption. In our creed we say that after his death, Jesus descended into hell. this was not the hell of the damned, but the resting place of the just. In Christian thinking Jesus met all the souls of history who had remained faithful to God. Jesus brought them the Good News of their imminent ressurection with Him and their forthcoming passage to heaven.

So… Christ is the star, who opens the gates that had been closed so that the souls who had remained faithful to God could go with Him to heaven. Dying He destroyed death, Rising He restored Life. Revelation the story of Christ and His Church.

The problem I see with this right away is that if Jesus is the star, then He cannot be God. I say this because the star was given the key to the bottomless pit and Jesus (as we know) already posseses the keys to give to others because He is God. God alone is the one that holds all keys and distributes them according to His perfect will. We see this proved in chapter one when Jesus is known to hold the keys to death and hell. Also, “stars” in the book of Revelation represent Bishops and clergy, which means the stars in the seven letters represent seven Bishops that Jesus was speaking to through St. John. The word “heaven” in Revelation often means the Church or the Kingdom of God.

IMO, Revelation is not all that tough if we realize it describes the Catholic Church then, since then, now and in the future–which means the proper interpreation (imo) must look like the Catholic Church and Catholic faith as we have all known. Further, the horros found in the book describe the terrible events that have happened in Church history, then, since then, now, and in the future.

Luther, imo, was the star (Priest) that fell from Heaven (the Church or the Kingdom of God), and using the power (keys) of his vocation (the Priesthood) as given by God (Jesus), Luther was able to drag millions into the abyss.

 

[maryj]

FYI, Jesus talks to the “churches” directly in Rev.3. If the 144,000 to be sealed are “Catholics of all ages”, why are the 144,000 referred to as from all of the 12 tribes of Israel?

How many are sealed with God’s saving love. John uses the number 144,000. It is a multiple of 12x12x1000. John is thinking of those who will be saved in his own day as well as in the whole history of salvation. the number refers to completeness, to the perfect number of all who will be actually saed. Though John goes on to speak of the numbers in terms of the twelve tribes of Israel, he is not talking about the old Israel. John is talking about the new Israel, the church. The numbers will include saved Jewish Christians. They also show all the saved gentile Christians .
The angel marks their forheads. Do we have a custom of this in our church? Ash Wednesday, catholics are marked on the forehead with ashes to remind us of our martality, of our belonging to Christ, and our committment to remain faithful(the letters to the seven churches)to the Gospels. It is a ceremonial reminder of belonging to God.

 

[Tom317]

How many are sealed with God’s saving love. John uses the number 144,000. It is a multiple of 12x12x1000. John is thinking of those who will be saved in his own day as well as in the whole history of salvation. the number refers to completeness, to the perfect number of all who will be actually saed. Though John goes on to speak of the numbers in terms of the twelve tribes of Israel, he is not talking about the old Israel. John is talking about the new Israel, the church. The numbers will include saved Jewish Christians. They also show all the saved gentile Christians .
The angel marks their forheads. Do we have a custom of this in our church? Ash Wednesday, catholics are marked on the forehead with ashes to remind us of our martality, of our belonging to Christ, and our committment to remain faithful(the letters to the seven churches)to the Gospels. It is a ceremonial reminder of belonging to God.

I believe the 144,000 is a real number and it represents Jewish converts to the Catholic faith.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Does it strike anyone as ironic that we 21st Century Christians, who don’t speak Greek, and have never studied the various systems of symbology and numerology that John uses, think we can tease a meaning out of these apocalyptic figures of speech?

That’s why I say, grasp John’s primary concerns in witing the book and then the meaning will be much clearer.

 

[tryin2follow]

I want to put this lightly, read what is says, it says standing with Him on mt. Zion, not saved. it also says they were celibate.

where do you get this belief of them being Jewish converts?

I think simply that the star is Lucifer, the image of stars in the BIble is only used to describe angels. in fact, I think it is the same greek word, but i’m not 100% sure.

simply put I accept that the book of Revelation is a prophetic message about the persecution of Christians, and destruction of the temple in Jerusalem in 70AD. it would take days for me to explain why, but simply I’ll say that when John describes the beast in chapter 13, starting at verse 11, the number 666, (his name) when translated it is also 616 in hebrew, which is Nero Ceasar

I would recomend the book “Coming Soon” by Michael Barber, and “The Lamb’s Supper” by Scott Hahn

 

[Tom317]

Does it strike anyone as ironic that we 21st Century Christians, who don’t speak Greek, and have never studied the various systems of symbology and numerology that John uses, think we can tease a meaning out of these apocalyptic figures of speech?

That’s why I say, grasp John’s primary concerns in witing the book and then the meaning will be much clearer.

There is no purpose in the Holy Spirit giving us the Apocalypse if we are not intended, at some point in time, to understand what it means. You have your view and you are comfortable with that, good for you, I take nothing away from you by disagreeing with your assessment, and neither of us are doing anything wrong so long as we do not interpret in a way that megates known truths of the faith. The Apocalypse seems to have nearly as many interpretations as there are people reading it (exageration of course).

 

[vern_humphrey]

There is no purpose in the Holy Spirit giving us the Apocalypse if we are not intended, at some point in time, to understand what it means. You have your view and you are comfortable with that, good for you, I take nothing away from you by disagreeing with your assessment, and neither of us are doing anything wrong so long as we do not interpret in a way that megates known truths of the faith. The Apocalypse seems to have nearly as many interpretations as there are people reading it (exageration of course).

That’s getting close to fundamentalism – “Anyone can interpret the Bible.”

But that isn’t true – it takes years of study and the mastery of ancient languages, history, and other skills before one is truly qualified to interpret the meaning of a First Century writer who uses such elaborate symbolism.

 

[Tom317]

That’s getting close to fundamentalism – “Anyone can interpret the Bible.”

But that isn’t true – it takes years of study and the mastery of ancient languages, history, and other skills before one is truly qualified to interpret the meaning of a First Century writer who uses such elaborate symbolism.

There really is not need to toss the fundamentalist label towards people. My work has received impirmaturs by very orthodox scholars, so I most certainly would never accept anything that does not 100% conform with Church teachings, which I made clear in my last post. Using the fundamentist tag is simply a slam when used towards Catholics.

I am not saying we are free to interpret any way we want, everything must conform with Church teachings. Period.

Therre is nothing I have written that goes against Church teaching, and it you disagree, then please tell me what statements are contrary.

 

[spauline]

You are more than welcome. I am very much enjoying your posts. Let us continue…

Hi, Mary, thank you, and I am enjoying the discourse as well. Also, with regards to your comment on the 144,000 being the totality of the elect, and the mark of beast being the damned, that I would say is plausible. But I would also supplement it on another layer with my theory of the Sealed ones being only the faithful Catholic elect, for the following reason:

Evidently, the trumpets do not harm the “sealed ones”. I would say it is not right to take this literalistically, as though any elect persons will never suffer physically. I mean, when natural disasters occur, are we to believe that they never harm people who will eventually be in heaven. I surmise that you would never believe this anyway, but so then on this basis, I would say that the “protection” the sealed ones have is not physical but spiritual.

But, then, no that basis, consider this: is not one “harmed” spiritually when one believes things that are not true religiously? For example, if a Protestant, for example, cannot accept a particular Catholic doctrine, is he not being “harmed” in the very depths of his soul, for are not the doctrines of God part of our redemption, illumining our souls with the truths of a God who Loves us immeasurably, and who desires that we understand Him as fully as possible.

But then consider this very language of Scripture in the Two Witnesses: “and if any man will harm them, in this manner must he be harmed!”

There could be no more Catholic statement than this! For if a person, even if they are not subjectively culpable for their error, nevertheless cannot accept a particular truth of God, they are truly being harmed spiritually precisely to the degree that they are resisting the truth of God. For then, these errors pose a PARTIAL barrier between that person and God, a barrier that prevents the poor soul from receiving the full fruits of God’s Love and Grace. Take a perfect example even from a saint. I don’t know which saint this was (St. Teresa of Avila?), but she was experiencing a great ecstasy with God , but the fullness of the ecstasy could not be attained for her because she could not accept the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. Now, granted, she was not in sin, for the Church would not settle this issue dogmatically until several centuries later. But it does show that the inability to receive in love a particular set of truths of God does pose an obstacle to that persons fuller sanctification, and hence is truly a spiritual harm.

In that vein, you might consider my fuller take on the Two Witnesses here:

The Two Witnesses and the Witness of Scripture and Tradition

But to get to the final point, it is this: simply because a person is one of the elect does not ipso facto mean they cannot be harmed in their soul, and in particular in their faculty of intellect. For we can surmise there are many elect in the Muslims, the Orthodox, and the Protestants, and yet, in varying degrees and types, there are spiritual harms that are intrinsic to the fact they all possesss errors. Hence, only Catholics can have the fullness of spiritual protection in the matter of truth while on earth.

Blessings to you, Mary!
scott

 

[vern_humphrey]

There really is not need to toss the fundamentalist label towards people. My work has received impirmaturs by very orthodox scholars, so I most certainly would never accept anything that does not 100% conform with Church teachings, which I made clear in my last post. Using the fundamentist tag is simply a slam when used towards Catholics.

What’s this “tossing the fundamentalist label?” I pointed out that entering the Bible – especially a complex book like Revelation – requires skills that most don’t have when it comes to detailed interpretation.

Do you disagree with that?

I am not saying we are free to interpret any way we want, everything must conform with Church teachings. Period.

Therre is nothing I have written that goes against Church teaching, and it you disagree, then please tell me what statements are contrary.

I don’t really believe Revelation prophesied the coming of Martin Luther. Does it discuss him throwing the inkwell at the devil?

Do you have an imprimateur for that?

 

[spauline]

I support what Tom317 is saying in the sense that poor Vern is unnecessarily limiting the possibilities of meaning. I agree to the extent that a person who wishes to personally meditate on Scripture should have a good grounding in the essentials of OT history, the history of the Church, as well as very good grounding in understanding the truths of the Catholic faith as put forth in the Catechism. And, admittedly, knowing Greek and/or Hebrew would be a great asset as well. On the other hand, deeply mystical relationships with God have been known by persons who were less than possessing academic credentials. Consider that St. Faustina had but a third grade education. And yet there is unimaginable depth in her wondrous diary, which has been enormous and profound spiritual food for countless of the faithful. I remember seeing this movie about a St. Guiseppi, who was a complete goof up. It took him until he was 21 to complete grade school (if I have that right), and yet when there was a bishop visiting his monastery and fellow “educated” monk of Guiseppi was giving a “long, drawn out academic” discourse on the Trinity, but the Bishop was falling asleep from boredom. But when he went outside and found Guiseppi, Guiseppi used a humble and simple metaphor: One garment that is folded thrice. “Brilliant, Guiseppi”, said the bishop.

Now, don’t get me wrong, academic knowledge in many instances is crucial, but as Father Corapi has put it, some people can be educated into stupidity. And I see this especially in the stigma of preterism. “Biblical scholars” who “know Greek and detailed Early Church history” simply flat out declare as a “scholarly fact” that no other meanings were intended or will ever be known beyond preterism.

 

[Tom317]

What’s this “tossing the fundamentalist label?” I pointed out that entering the Bible – especially a complex book like Revelation – requires skills that most don’t have when it comes to detailed interpretation.

Do you disagree with that?

I don’t really believe Revelation prophesied the coming of Martin Luther. Does it discuss him throwing the inkwell at the devil?

Do you have an imprimateur for that?

I think when you tossed a label when you wrote: That’s getting close to fundamentalism – “Anyone can interpret the Bible.”

You are completely missing the mark. I have no issue with you not believing that the book of Revelation contains nothing about Luther or the Protestant Revolt against our Lord’s One True Church. You have every right to interpret Revelation that way so long as your view never contradicts known truths of the faith. Likewise, my belief that the book of Revelation (specifically chapter nine) speaks about Luther and the Protestant Revolt is also not against formal known truths of the faith. Therefore, we are both completely free to cotinue to believe as we do regarding that intriguing book.

Do I think have a deep education helps? Yes I do.

Do you know my education level, what I have studied, what I know, or even how I received imprimaturs for Roman Catholic Scripture studies? No you do not.

I think we must be very, very careful when we start to think that only the highly educated can interpret the Bible, because that eliminates the working of the Holy Spirit. After all, the Apostles were NOT degreed in Catholic education, they received their knowledge from Jesus and from the Holy Spirit, not from books and classrooms, and there is a plethora of highly educated Catholic scholars that trip over basic truths of the faith.

I respectfully advise you to walk carefully when you choose to diminish the skills, knowledge and gifts of fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.

 

[Tom317]

I support what Tom317 is saying in the sense that poor Vern is unnecessarily limiting the possibilities of meaning. I agree to the extent that a person who wishes to personally meditate on Scripture should have a good grounding in the essentials of OT history, the history of the Church, as well as very good grounding in understanding the truths of the Catholic faith as put forth in the Catechism. And, admittedly, knowing Greek and/or Hebrew would be a great asset as well. On the other hand, deeply mystical relationships with God have been known by persons who were less than possessing academic credentials. Consider that St. Faustina had but a third grade education. And yet there is unimaginable depth in her wondrous diary, which has been enormous and profound spiritual food for countless of the faithful. I remember seeing this movie about a St. Guiseppi, who was a complete goof up. It took him until he was 21 to complete grade school (if I have that right), and yet when there was a bishop visiting his monastery and fellow “educated” monk of Guiseppi was giving a “long, drawn out academic” discourse on the Trinity, but the Bishop was falling asleep from boredom. But when he went outside and found Guiseppi, Guiseppi used a humble and simple metaphor: One garment that is folded thrice. “Brilliant, Guiseppi”, said the bishop.

Now, don’t get me wrong, academic knowledge in many instances is crucial, but as Father Corapi has put it, some people can be educated into stupidity. And I see this especially in the stigma of preterism. “Biblical scholars” who “know Greek and detailed Early Church history” simply flat out declare as a “scholarly fact” that no other meanings were intended or will ever be known beyond preterism.

Well said.