What does seperate us from universe?

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So here is the problem that I am thinking right now. This problem applies to materialism. The idea is very simple. Everything in materialism are particles and particles interact with each other through forces. Lets assume that consciousness (the ability to have subjective experience) can be explained in materialism. The problem is that there is really no border between person and external world since in practice all particles interact with each other. So the question is that how we could have personal experience? What does separate us from universe?
 
I guess I am a little confused as to what you are asking. Are you asking specifically how we can have personal experiences FROM a Materialist point of view? Or are you asking in general “how can we have personal experiences”?

And what separates us from the universe can be answered after the first is established and well grounded.
 
Bballer32 said:
I guess I am a little confused as to what you are asking. Are you asking specifically how we can have personal experiences FROM a Materialist point of view? Or are you asking in general “how can we have personal experiences”?

And what separates us from the universe can be answered after the first is established and well grounded.
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Let me formulate the idea in another way: Materialists believe that experience is the result of process which is happening in the brain. The process is the result of moving particles in the brain due to interaction. We however know that universe is the accumulation of interacting particles. So the question is how we could possibly have personal experience if everything is interacting with each other?
 
STT said:
So the question is how we could possibly have personal experience if everything is interacting with each other?
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Well, exactly. Your answer is within your question. This is one of the many flaws in the materialist ideology. You are exactly right: How CAN we have personal experiences if everything is already automatically generated and acted upon by particles. How can we experience depression? How can we experience Love? Are we all just a bunch of mindless drones? Are our decisions solely based off of a pre-determined interaction which began with the creation of the universe? If so, then why do we punish murderers, and adultery, and theft?

So, no, we cannot have personal experiences in a materialist world.
 
STT said:
Let me formulate the idea in another way: Materialists believe that experience is the result of process which is happening in the brain. The process is the result of moving particles in the brain due to interaction. We however know that universe is the accumulation of interacting particles. So the question is how we could possibly have personal experience if everything is interacting with each other?
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Well, the thing is… it’s not the case that “everything is interacting with each other”.

I am interacting with things in my environment, which means that I’m inhaling oxygen and nitrogen and particles of air freshener and molecules from my wine glass and photons which have been energized by the sun… but that doesn’t mean that they become ‘me’. There might be particles that come in contact with me in various ways, but they do not ‘become’ me, if by ‘me’ you mean the conscious person who I am.

Your question was whether materialism fails to explain consciousness if all particles interact with all other particles. The answer is both “yes, materialism fails to explain consciousness cogently (but not for the reason you suggest” and “no, all particles are not in contact with all other particles in the universe.” Hope that helps. 😉
 
Gorgias said:
Well, the thing is… it’s not the case that “everything is interacting with each other”.
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That is not correct. Particles for example interact with each other through electromagnetic filed which is long range interaction.
Gorgias said:
I am interacting with things in my environment, which means that I’m inhaling oxygen and nitrogen and particles of air freshener and molecules from my wine glass and photons which have been energized by the sun… but that doesn’t mean that they become ‘me’. There might be particles that come in contact with me in various ways, but they do not ‘become’ me, if by ‘me’ you mean the conscious person who I am.
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How you can define “me” under materialism when particles entering into and exiting from your body?
 
We are not.

Our human bodies are part of the earth, which is part of the physical universe, although our ability to move and breathe makes us seem distinct from it.

It is our mind (unshared by the rest of the cosmos) that distinguishes us from it.

ICXC NIKA
 
STT said:
That is not correct. Particles for example interact with each other through electromagnetic filed which is long range interaction.

How you can define “me” under materialism when particles entering into and exiting from your body?
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Simple.

The me, or the “you” is the being bounded by the sensorium of the anatomical body, which roughly though inexactly corresponds to the solid bounded by the surface of the skin.

ICXC. NIKA
 
GEddie said:
Simple.

The me, or the “you” is the being bounded by the sensorium of the anatomical body, which roughly though inexactly corresponds to the solid bounded by the surface of the skin.

ICXC. NIKA
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This I understand but it does not negate what I argue. It is simple. Particles interact with each other through electromagnetic fields which is long range (Coulomb interaction).
 
STT said:
This I understand but it does not negate what I argue. It is simple. Particles interact with each other through electromagnetic fields which is long range (Coulomb interaction).
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So?

Neutrinos pass through your soma as if you were no-body, and do not affect the “you” at all.

ICXC NIKA
 
STT said:
How you can define “me” under materialism when particles entering into and exiting from your body?
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Why are you arguing with non-materialists about the nature of materialism? None of us (non-materialists) think that particular philosophy is valid so how could we answer the question? Ask a materialist.
 
seagal said:
Why are you arguing with non-materialists about the nature of materialism? None of us (non-materialists) think that particular philosophy is valid so how could we answer the question? Ask a materialist.
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Well, you can think about it and use it as an argument when you discuss with a materialist.
 
Bradski said:
We’re just bits of the universe that have become self aware.
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Is self awareness and consciousness a part of the material universe? How did it arise from pure matter? How would you take a couple of rocks or some other chemical substances and combine them to form a self aware and conscious object that can observe and reflect on the universe around him and perform altruistic deeds for his self aware neighboring chemical object?
 
GEddie said:
Simple.

The me, or the “you” is the being bounded by the sensorium of the anatomical body, which roughly though inexactly corresponds to the solid bounded by the surface of the skin.

ICXC. NIKA
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I would agree.

It would be the “matter” connected directly to the nervous system which is connected to the brain.

Though i am not a materialist and would use such words as ‘connected’ in the sense that there is a primary reality that really connects everything, though in our secondary existence we can’t see that.
 
Bradski said:
We’re just bits of the universe that have become self aware.
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The main question in this thread is that how you could draw a line between yourself and universe when everything is interacting with each other.
 
STT said:
The main question in this thread is that how you could draw a line between yourself and universe when everything is interacting with each other.
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The line is the boundary of our mind, through the body sensorium.

ICXC NIKA
 
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