What does "Sola Fide" mean?

[Cathoholic]

In post 96 you said:

do you agree with this?

Pope Benedict
By defining “faith” as “identification with Christ expressed in love for God and neighbor,” Pope Benedict qualified his statement, noting that the Apostle Paul had written about such faith in his letters, especially the one to the Philippians. . . .

THAT’S exactly the charity that I am talking about. It is a faith that is EXPRESSED in LOVE.

But notice it NEEDS to “EXPRESSED”. And it needs to be expressed in love or charity.

Pope Benedict
By defining “faith” as “identification with Christ expressed in love for God and neighbor,” . . .

I affirm this and all these quotes.

The NEED for “EXPRESSION” goes beyond a mere mental assent.

You would say you “will” express" it.

Then I would ask do you NEED to?

If you are going to hold to Reformed tradition, you will have to not answer the question by saying “you automatically WILL” or say “no”.

That’s the whole point I was making with a faith to move mountains but not “EXPRESSED” in charity quoting 1st Corinthians 13.

That is a SUPERNATURAL FAITH, but it is NOT ENOUGH if charity is rejected.

Moving mountains even in an allegorical sense goes beyond mere “mental assent”.

I asked you what happens if THAT occurs and you said that situation was an “impossibility”.

Well I know a lot of Bible ONLY Protestants who assert from the Bible ALONE that this situation that St. Paul HIMSELF asserts IS a distinct possibility.

Incidentally. These Protestants ALSO affirm the need to be IN JESUS, but then they have to REMAIN IN Jesus (notice you are IN Jesus, but you must REMAIN there). And they affirm that if they CHOOSE to NOT REMAIN IN Jesus, Christ will come and remove their lampstand. They will wither away and die and be “Burned”.

Reformed Protestant traditions deny these truths while saying they are NOT MINIMIZING the Gospel.

By the way. You need HOPE too. Not just charity.

You can throw your HOPE away like Judas did and fall into despair. Others throw away their hope by falling into the sin of PRESUMPTION that Jesus warns against (for example in Matthew 3:9, John 8:39 and elsewhere).

And you need perseverance.

And you need to COOPERATE with God’s grace.

And my Reformed friends would say . . . .

“NO! By necessitating “cooperation” you are taking away from the sufficiency of faith and Christ!”

But I quoted 2nd Corinthians 6:1 to you already and many other verses and the Reformed problem is with St. Paul and the Holy Spirit. Not with me.

The problem here is many fold.

You think justification is a moment ALONE.

Catholics and many Bible only Protestants teach that Justification is a moment followed by a lifelong PROCESS.

You think we are covered with the righteousness of Christ ALONE.

Catholics and some Bible only Protestants teach that we are covered by Christ AND TRANSFORMED by Christ.

You have a whole list of other “alones” many of which you explicitly put forth in the posts above.

Some Bible ONLY Protestants hold to some of them and not others.

This is WHY I said sola fide is a hodge podge among Bible ONLY Protestantism.

 

[LatinRight]

Fair enough Alwayswill.

But you can’t appropriately appeal to Ephesians 2:8-9 and ignore the other Ephesians items.

I’ve been through that routine enough times and I am not going to fall for it.

• You have to ALSO assert the reason we were made was for “good works” (Ephesians 2:10).
• You have to ALSO assert that God works IN US to DO far more abundantly than we ask including “ask” for salvation (Ephesians 3:20-21).
• You have to ALSO assert that God warned these same Ephesians they will have their lampstand REMOVED, if they don’t DO the works that they did at first.

You need a FULL Gospel.

You keep minimizing the Gospel by ADDING the word “ALONE” to Scripture when it is NOT THERE.

Go back and look at your posts and see how many “ALONE” assertions you made that are NOT lifted from Scripture but are mere inventions and human concoctions.

Ask yourself if you can be in JESUS, be in “the VINE” and choose to NOT “REMAIN” in Jesus (notice you are IN Jesus, but you MUST REMAIN IN JESUS).

Since you appealed to John 15 (here), so will I.

JOHN 15:1-6, 15 (NIV) 1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. 5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. . . . . 14 You are my friends** if** you do what I command.

EPHESIANS 2:10, 3:20-21 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. . . . .20 Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think, 21 to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, for ever and ever. Amen.

REVELATION 2:1-5 1 "To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: 'The words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand, who walks among the seven golden lampstands. 2 "'I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear evil men but have tested those who call themselves apostles but are not, and found them to be false; 3 I know you are enduring patiently and bearing up for my name’s sake, and you have not grown weary. 4 But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. 5 Remember then from what you have fallen, repent and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

**God bless Cathoholic,

CONDITIONS THAT OUR WORKS (OUR DEEDS) COUNT FOR ANYTHING

Conditions MUST BE PRESENT to make SUPERNATURAL MERIT possible.

The meritorious work must be morally good, that is, in accordance with the moral law in its

object, intent, and circumstances.

It MUST be done FREELY, WITHOUT any EXTERNAL COERCION or INTERNAL NECESSITY.

It MUST be SUPERNATURAL, that is, AROUSED and ACCOMPANIED by ACTUAL

GRACE, and proceeding from a SUPERNATURAL motive.

Strictly speaking only a person in the STATE OF GRACE can merit, as defined by the

Church (Denzinger 1576, 1582).

JUSTIFICATION IN CATHOLIC TEACHING by Jimmy Akin

Quote: “The essence of supernatural love is unselfishness—doing something NOT

BECAUSE IT WILL HELP US SOMEHOW, but because we want to do it out of SHEER

LOVE for the other person, whether that person is God or one of our fellow human beings

out of the love of God.

This is THE ONLY KIND of love that ultimately pleases God and therefore the ONLY

KIND that ultimately gets us a reward IN heaven.” End quote. Emphasize mine.

The answer of the following question might show the light and might help the

reconciliation between you and Alwayswill.

QUESTION

A Christian stands before the judgment seat and ALL his works are REJECTED by God

because not even an iota of his work was qualified as good work/supernatural work;

Where this person ends up in heaven or in hell?

What is your answer Cathoholic?

God bless

LatinRight**

 

[goout]

QUESTION

A Christian stands before the judgment seat and ALL his works are REJECTED by God

because not even an iota of his work was qualified as good work/supernatural work;

Where this person ends up in heaven or in hell?

What is your answer Cathoholic?

God bless

LatinRight

How could a person who has -not- done God’s will be in relationship with God? That is what heaven is: unification with God.

And I believe this is the element that is missing in these discussions: The difference between covenant and contract.
Faith is about covenant relationship, not merely fulfilling a contract.

Relationships of love are always in freedom. Faith is simply a “two way street”.
God’s grace does not force.
On the other end of the spectrum, grace that is not responded to is not effective.

If a person has faith, works are part of it. Responding to grace is itself an act.
A person may confess faith in all the tenets of the Catholic Church and if that faith does not bear fruit, he may still not be alive in Christ. (to be in heaven is to be in Christ)
Conversely, a person may do all sorts of works selfishly, and not have a faith relationship.

This is not an either/or thing. False dichotomy. Faith should be seen as a continuum of response involving the whole person.
Faith is

The adequate response to this invitation (God’s revelation).

143 By faith, man completely submits his intellect and his will to God.2 With his whole being man gives his assent to God the revealer. Sacred Scripture calls this human response to God, the author of revelation, “the obedience of faith”.

Notice the word “being”.

 

[ajcstr]

Faith that is a gift from God is salvific and assures you will do the will of the father *
(* if you live long enough and understand the will of the Father)

If I may, i just want to divert a little bit, I have always wondered about something in Calvinism.

Unconditional election - do either of these accurately reflect the results of this:

(a) only those predestined by God are given the grace and faith to seek God, so if i have faith, this is my assurance that I am of the elect.

OR is it possible that

(b) a person will seek God, have faith but still be damned because they are not among the elect - and the flip side, some persons are just saved even though they do not exhibit faith?

 

[goout]

If I may, i just want to divert a little bit, I have always wondered about something in Calvinism.

Unconditional election - do either of these accurately reflect the results of this:

(a) only those predestined by God are given the grace and faith to seek God, so if i have faith, this is my assurance that I am of the elect.

OR is it possible that

(b) a person will seek God, have faith but still be damned because they are not among the elect - and the flip side, some persons are just saved even though they do not exhibit faith?

One issue here is knowledge. You are talking about knowledge that is reserved to God.

How can anyone have knowledge of unconditional election?

 

[ajcstr]

One issue here is knowledge. You are talking about knowledge that is reserved to God.

How can anyone have knowledge of unconditional election?

I’m not a Calvinist, that’s why I’m asking the question. If a Calvinist can have assurance of salvation, then I would think he/she would have to know that he/she is among the elect.

(see post 53)

 

[goout]

I’m not a Calvinist, that’s why I’m asking the question. If a Calvinist can have assurance of salvation, then I would think he/she would have to know that he/she is among the elect.

Yes sorry I did not mean “you” personally.

It seems to me, having self-assurance that you are one of a select group is probably evidence that you are not. It just seems to run counter to everything the Gospel is about.

 

[spiderweb]

Originally Posted by alwayswill (Post #96)

Pope Francis says he agrees with Martin Luther about justification
dennyburk.com/pope-franci…justification/
“I think that the intentions of Martin Luther were not mistaken. He was a reformer. Perhaps some methods were not correct. But in that time, if we read the story of the Pastor, a German Lutheran who then converted when he saw reality – he became Catholic – in that time, the Church was not exactly a model to imitate. There was corruption in the Church, there was worldliness, attachment to money, to power…and this he protested. Then he was intelligent and took some steps forward justifying, and because he did this. And today Lutherans and Catholics, Protestants, all of us agree on the doctrine of justification. On this point, which is very important, he did not err. He made a medicine for the Church…”
-Pope Francis

This is a factual quote. In context it is talking about the joint declaration of justification in which Catholics and other protestant denominations agree, but there are still divisions.

Pope Francis
That document of justification I think is one of the richest ecumenical documents in the world, one in most agreement. But there are divisions, and these also depend on the Churches.

Full interview text here catholicnewsagency.com/news/full-text-pope-francis-inflight-press-conference-from-armenia-45222/

 

[alwayswill]

One issue here is knowledge. You are talking about knowledge that is reserved to God.

How can anyone have knowledge of unconditional election?

Basic point : does God want those who have eternal life to know they have eternal life?

1 John 5:13 “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.”

Do you know whether or not you have eternal life?

Does God want the elect to confirm their election?

2 Peter 1:10 “Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election.”

did you make every effort to confirm you election?

Yes sorry I did not mean “you” personally.

It seems to me, having self-assurance that you are one of a select group is probably evidence that you are not. It just seems to run counter to everything the Gospel is about.

Isn’t part of the Gospel believing the promises of Christ as if your eternal life depends upon it.

 

[goout]

Basic point : does God want those who have eternal life to know they have eternal life?

You are claiming you have God’s knowledge of these things?

Basic point: you misunderstand what the word “know” means.

 

[alwayswill]

If I may, i just want to divert a little bit, I have always wondered about something in Calvinism.

Unconditional election - do either of these accurately reflect the results of this:

(a) only those predestined by God are given the grace and faith to seek God, so if i have faith, this is my assurance that I am of the elect.

OR is it possible that

(b) a person will seek God, have faith but still be damned because they are not among the elect - and the flip side, some persons are just saved even though they do not exhibit faith?

(a) is closer to the the Calvinist view than (b), IF IF IF faith is defined as the gift from God that actually is tied to regeneration…
IOW your faith changes you.

I’ll add this: Calvinists proclaim that everyone that desires to be saved by faith (belief) in Christ; will be saved
John 3:16

 

[alwayswill]

You are claiming you have God’s knowledge of these things?

Basic point: you misunderstand what the word “know” means.

You don’t ever get tell me what I believe!!

Are we crystal clear on that?

I did not claim to have God’s knowledge of these things.
**
I am telling you**
I claim to believe the promises of Christ.
That’s a huge difference

so now I’ll ask you
do you claim to believe the promises of Christ?

and btw: you did not answer these questions:

Does God want those that have eternal life to know it?
Does God want the elect to confirm their election?

Strong’s Concordance
eidó: be aware, behold, consider, perceive
Original Word: οἶδα
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: eidó
Phonetic Spelling: (i’-do)
Short Definition: I know, remember
Definition: I know, remember, appreciate.
HELPS Word-studies

1492 eídō (oida) – properly, to see with physical eyes (cf. Ro 1:11), as it naturally bridges to the metaphorical sense: perceiving (“mentally seeing”). This is akin to the expressions: “I see what You mean”; “I see what you are saying.”

1492 /eídō (“seeing that becomes knowing”) then is a gateway to grasp spiritual truth (reality) from a physical plane. 1492 (eídō) then is physical seeing (sight) which should be the constant bridge to mental and spiritual seeing (comprehension).

 

[jane_doe]

Reminder from the OP: please be courteous to our Protestant guests here, and let them explain their beliefs for themselves.

If this turns into a bashing fest I will request to have the thread closed.

 

[goout]

Reminder from the OP: please be courteous to our Protestant guests here, and let them explain their beliefs for themselves.

If this turns into a bashing fest I will request to have the thread closed.

It was a fair question given the poster’s belief about knowledge of election. I did not tell the poster what his beliefs are. I asked a question.

The poster also made a comment that started “basic point”, as if we came to Christianity just this morning.

I for one happen to disagree with the poster’s sense of knowledge in relation to God. I believe he conflates head knowledge with the deep personal knowing that is offered to us by God.
It boils down to this: God is not a book, he is a **being. **

In any case, unsubscribed.

 

[ajcstr]

(a) is closer to the the Calvinist view than (b), IF IF IF faith is defined as the gift from God that actually is tied to regeneration…
IOW your faith changes you.

I’ll add this: Calvinists proclaim that everyone that desires to be saved by faith (belief) in Christ; will be saved
John 3:16

See, its that 2nd point I don’t get. If election is unconditional (I take that to mean its not based on anything I’ve done or will do - God chooses) then how could my desire to be saved play into it? Unless, as I said in option a, God chose me so he will give me the grace to move me to have the desire.

 

[spiderweb]

Basic point : does God want those who have eternal life to know they have eternal life?

1 John 5:13 “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.”

Do you know whether or not you have eternal life?

Objectively I can know that I have eternal life because I have Faith that Jesus died for my sins in order that I may have eternal life. Faith Alone absolutely applies here, which leads to…

Does God want the elect to confirm their election?

2 Peter 1:10 “Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election.”

did you make every effort to confirm you election?

I can objectively know that I have eternal life, as stated above, but I cannot know if that is applied to me personally, because it’s application is dependent with my cooperation with God’ s grace. I do not know that I have perfect repentance for sins. I do not know how completely I cooperated with God’s graces for me. I do not know how well I have confirmed my calling and election. I only know subjectively that I “think” I have cooperated to the best of my ability. But I also know that there are times when I do not cooperate completely. Those who claim to be without sin deceive themselves (1 John 1:8), therefore I know that I fall short. Because of this, Faith Alone does not apply here because my cooperation with the graces merited by Jesus on the Cross for my personal salvation is necessary.

If the effort is not made to confirm their election, or the effort is lacking in some respect, can anyone still say that they are saved by faith alone and the confirmation of their election is of no significance when it comes to their personal salvation?

Isn’t part of the Gospel believing the promises of Christ as if your eternal life depends upon it.

Yes, and it also requires a response. Believing without the response in cooperation on our part will not save anyone. Without the response, there is no personal relationship with Jesus. Without the relationship, we will hear “Depart from me for I never knew you”.

 

[rcwitness]

This is a factual quote. In context it is talking about the joint declaration of justification in which Catholics and other protestant denominations agree…

I wish Catholics and Protestants knew this then… Do Protestants agree with Trent? Do Catholics agree with Sola Fide?

I think, if we are honest, there is real common ground. But we are not honest. We prefer to feel as though we stand and defend Jesus, when it is really Him who must defend us.

But I would have to be shown evidence to accept that Pope Benedict said St Paul lived a life of Faith Alone after his conversion. I don’t know how either Protestants or Catholics could say such a thing…

 

[LatinRight]

Objectively I can know that I have eternal life because I have Faith that Jesus died for my sins in order that I may have eternal life. Faith Alone absolutely applies here, which leads to…

I can objectively know that I have eternal life, as stated above, but I cannot know if that is applied to me personally, because it’s application is dependent with my cooperation with God’ s grace. I do not know that I have perfect repentance for sins. I do not know how completely I cooperated with God’s graces for me. I do not know how well I have confirmed my calling and election. I only know subjectively that I “think” I have cooperated to the best of my ability. But I also know that there are times when I do not cooperate completely. Those who claim to be without sin deceive themselves (1 John 1:8), therefore I know that I fall short. Because of this, Faith Alone does not apply here because my cooperation with the graces merited by Jesus on the Cross for my personal salvation is necessary.

If the effort is not made to confirm their election, or the effort is lacking in some respect, can anyone still say that they are saved by faith alone and the confirmation of their election is of no significance when it comes to their personal salvation?

Yes, and it also requires a response. Believing without the response in cooperation on our part will not save anyone. Without the response, there is no personal relationship with Jesus. Without the relationship, we will hear “Depart from me for I never knew you”.

**God bless Spiderweb,

I agree with you. We should do our very best.

But at the same time, we shouldn’t think we saved by our perfection, we saved by our faith which is God’s gift.

If God would save us by our perfection we all would end up in hell.

We have been saved by our faith in God in His Word paid by Christ for our salvation on the cross.

We need to put our faith in what Christ has done for us on the cross, not faith in our limited ability. - 1 John 5:13; John 5:24; Rom.5:18; Rom.3:24; etc.

God bless

LatinRight**

 

[MichaelP3]

Basic point : does God want those who have eternal life to know they have eternal life?

1 John 5:13 “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.”

Do you know whether or not you have eternal life?

Does God want the elect to confirm their election?

2 Peter 1:10 “Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election.”

did you make every effort to confirm you election?

Isn’t part of the Gospel believing the promises of Christ as if your eternal life depends upon it.

Not that I am proclaiming Calvinism (Althouhh I was raised that way without even knowing about the guy until I was 16). And please I hope nobody is going to bash at me for even stating his name.

I just have a thought. If it is actually the case. "No free will’, "predestination '. Why is that so hard to accept? Yes there is a lot of things on this earth that happens and we don’t understand. And then we try to understand GOD and WHY it happened. What will be will be. We all have said it in some way. God’s plan will happen. If we believe God is as powerful as we should, why is this a problem. The Reformed thinking is so trusting in Gods divine will that nothing can happen outside of it. Yes many bad things happen, BUT ARE WE GOD, so I would say humans should not try to understand it. We are not God.

The Reformed view puts so much trust in God’s divine will that I seriously do not understand the bashing.

All who question it (and that’s okay) should maybe read Calvins Systematic Theology. He was a lawyer and he did a pretty good job not contradicting himself. One may not agree with it, but one can still start to get an idea where he came from.

 

[alwayswill]

Basic point : does God want those who have eternal life to know they have eternal life?

1 John 5:13 “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.”

Do you know whether or not you have eternal life?

Does God want the elect to confirm their election?

2 Peter 1:10 “Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election.”

did you make every effort to confirm you election?

Isn’t part of the Gospel believing the promises of Christ as if your eternal life depends upon it.

Yes God wants those that eternal life to know it.
Yes, God wants the elect to confirm their election.

And I believe the promises of my Lord and Savior as if my eternal life depends on it.

1 John 5:13 “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.”
2 Peter 1:10 “Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election.”

I know I have eternal life
I make every effort to confirm my calling and election.

Am I to be cursed?