What does "Sola Fide" mean?

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alwayswill said:
Yes God wants those that eternal life to know it.
Yes, God wants the elect to confirm their election.

And I believe the promises of my Lord and Savior as if my eternal life depends on it.

1 John 5:13 “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.”
2 Peter 1:10 “Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election.”

I know I have eternal life
I make every effort to confirm my calling and election.

Am I to be cursed?
Click to expand...
I don’t have a problem with this. But I’m not sure one should presume they will never fall away. I understand you would say that it is Christ who keeps you.

I see the two beliefs. One says, if you have genuine faith that leads to conversion and obedience, that person is among the elect that God will not cast out. The other says, if you have faith, you must persevere in faith, leading to a continual conversion through all the trials that you are given.

I don’t think they have to be opposed to one another. But some aspects are not necessarily in common.
 
rcwitness said:
I don’t have a problem with this. But I’m not sure one should presume they will never fall away. I understand you would say that it is Christ who keeps you.

I see the two beliefs. One says, if you have genuine faith that leads to conversion and obedience, that person is among the elect that God will not cast out. The other says, if you have faith, you must persevere in faith, leading to a continual conversion through all the trials that you are given.

I don’t think they have to be opposed to one another. But some aspects are not necessarily in common.
Click to expand...
I believe it is Catholic teaching that the elect will be saved at the end:is that correct?
It is also my understanding that eternal does not mean temporary: is that also correct?
 
alwayswill said:
I believe it is Catholic teaching that the elect will be saved at the end:is that correct?
It is also my understanding that eternal does not mean temporary: is that also correct?
Click to expand...
Not positive. Doesn’t it say, in Revelations, that some of the Elect will even be led away?
 
rcwitness said:
Not positive. Doesn’t it say, in Revelations, that some of the Elect will even be led away?
Click to expand...
For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Matthew 24:24

Even if the elect could be deceived: that does not mean they would be led “away”

biblicalcatholic.com/apologetics/num21.htm

“By definition, the ELECT are those whom God infallibly foresees will be saved (Rom 8:28-30).
By this definition, it is impossible for the elect to be lost, precisely because God foreknows who will not be lost”​

 
alwayswill said:
For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Matthew 24:24

Even if the elect could be deceived: that does not mean they would be led “away”

biblicalcatholic.com/apologetics/num21.htm

“By definition, the ELECT are those whom God infallibly foresees will be saved (Rom 8:28-30).
By this definition, it is impossible for the elect to be lost, precisely because God foreknows who will not be lost”​

Click to expand...
👍 Thanks.
 
alwayswill said:
I believe it is Catholic teaching that the elect will be saved at the end:is that correct?

It is also my understanding that eternal does not mean temporary: is that also correct?
Click to expand...
**God bless Alwayswill,

GOD’S PATTERN OF SALVATION AND THE RELATED THEOLOGICAL FACTS

[CCC 600] To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he

establishes his eternal plan of “PREDESTINATION,” he includes in it each person’s

free response to his grace.” End quote.

According to the principle pointed out in CCC 600, God has completed the Book of Life

before the foundation of the world by taken out the names of the reprobates for their

vehement rejection of God and His grace.

From the completion, the Book of Life admits NEITHER ADDITIONS NO ERASURES.

The names of God’s children/elect left in the Book of Life, all of them predestined to heaven.

THE PATTERN OF SALVATION OF THE CHILDREN OF GOD

The sequence of events in the salvation of the children of God:

Romans 8:29
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren.

Romans 8:30
And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.
  1. Foreknew
  2. Predestined
  3. Called
  4. Justified
  5. Glorified
No surprises, everything goes according to God’s plan of salvation.

The Catholic Church affirms predestination as a *DE FIDE *Dogma (the highest level of binding theological certainty).

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA

THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect

Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has

been IRREVOCABLY FIXED FROM ALL ETERNITY. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it

were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL or that

one not predestined should in the end REACH HEAVEN, then God would have been

MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge of future events; He would NO LONGER be omniscient.

God’s unerring foreknowledge and foreordaining is designated in the Bible by the beautiful

figure of the “Book of Life” (liber vitæ, to biblion tes zoes). This book of life is a list which

contains the names of ALL THE ELECT and admits NEITHER ADDITIONS NO ERASURES.

End quote. Emphasize added.

Quote: St. Thomas Aquinas, In his Summa Theologiae he wrote:

[P]erseverance is called he abiding in good TO the end of life.

And in order to have this perseverance man . . . needs the divine assistance guiding him

and guarding him against the attacks of the passions . . . that he may be kept from evil

TILL the end of his life (ST IIa:109:10)

This same teaching was infallibly taught by the Council of Trent after the Protestant Reformation.

A Tiptoe Through TULIP by James Akin

Quote: Trent’s Decree of Justification, canon 16, speaks of "That Great and Special Gift of

Final Perseverance," and chapter 13 of the decree speaks of "the gift of perseverance of

which it is written:

‘He who perseveres to the end shall be saved [Matt. 10:22, 24:13],’

Which cannot be obtained from anyone except from Him who is able to make him who

stands to stand [Rom. 14:4]."

Aquinas said it always saves a person because of the kind of grace it is; The gift of final

perseverance always works.

Catholics even have a special name for the GRACE God gives these people: “the gift of final perseverance.”

The Church formally teaches that there is a gift of final perseverance. [43] Aquinas (and

even Molina) said this grace always ensures that a person will persevere. [44] Aquinas

said, “Predestination [to final salvation] most certainly and infallibly takes effect.”

Aquinas (and even Molina) said this grace always ensures that a person will persevere.

In order to have this perseverance man…needs the divine assistance guiding and

guarding him against the attacks of the passions…” End quote

Without this gift of God’s special grace “The Gift of Final Perseverance.” NONE OF US COULD

MAKE IT TO HEAVEN, without it the destiny of ALL OF US would be IN HELL.

God gives this special protecting and guarding grace to every of His children at baptism

called “The Gift of Final Perseverance.”

THE EFFECTIVENESS OF THIS SPECIAL PROTECTING AND GUARDING GRACE

How far this special protecting and guarding grace goes in our protection?
  1. Aquinas said it always saves a person because of the kind of grace it is; The gift of final perseverance always works.
  2. Aquinas (and even Molina) said this grace always ensures that a person will persevere.
  3. St. Thomas Aquinas, In his Summa Theologiae he wrote:
[P]erseverance is called he abiding in good TO the end of life.

It is also my understanding that eternal does not mean temporary: is that also correct? – It is correct.

God bless

LatinRight**
 
alwayswill said:
I believe it is Catholic teaching that the elect will be saved at the end:is that correct?

It is also my understanding that eternal does not mean temporary: is that also correct?
Click to expand...
**God bless Alwayswill,

GOD’S PATTERN OF SALVATION AND THE RELATED THEOLOGICAL FACTS

[CCC 600] To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he

establishes his eternal plan of “PREDESTINATION,” he includes in it each person’s

free response to his grace.” End quote.

According to the principle pointed out in CCC 600, God has completed the Book of Life

before the foundation of the world by taken out the names of the reprobates for their

vehement rejection of God and His grace.

From the completion, the Book of Life admits NEITHER ADDITIONS NO ERASURES.

The names of God’s children/elect left in the Book of Life, all of them predestined to heaven.

THE PATTERN OF SALVATION OF THE CHILDREN OF GOD

The sequence of events in the salvation of the children of God:

Romans 8:29
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren.

Romans 8:30
And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.
  1. Foreknew
  2. Predestined
  3. Called
  4. Justified
  5. Glorified
No surprises, everything goes according to God’s plan of salvation.

The Catholic Church affirms predestination as a *DE FIDE *Dogma (the highest level of binding theological certainty).

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA

THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect

Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has

been IRREVOCABLY FIXED FROM ALL ETERNITY. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it

were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL or that

one not predestined should in the end REACH HEAVEN, then God would have been

MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge of future events; He would NO LONGER be omniscient.

God’s unerring foreknowledge and foreordaining is designated in the Bible by the beautiful

figure of the “Book of Life” (liber vitæ, to biblion tes zoes). This book of life is a list which

contains the names of ALL THE ELECT and admits NEITHER ADDITIONS NO ERASURES.

(2) The second quality of predestination, the DEFINITENESS of the number of the elect,

follows NATURALLY from the first. For if the eternal counsel of God regarding the

predestined is UNCHANGEABLE, then the number of the predestined must likewise be

UNCHANGEABLE and DEFINITE, subject NEITHER to ADDITIONS nor to

CANCELLATIONS. Anything indefinite in the number would eo ipso imply a lack of

certitude in God’s knowledge and would DESTROY His omniscience.

End quote Emphasize added.

Quote: St. Thomas Aquinas, In his Summa Theologiae he wrote:

[P]erseverance is called he abiding in good TO the end of life.

And in order to have this perseverance man . . . needs the divine assistance guiding him

and guarding him against the attacks of the passions . . . that he may be kept from evil

TILL the end of his life (ST IIa:109:10)

This same teaching was infallibly taught by the Council of Trent after the Protestant Reformation.

A Tiptoe Through TULIP by James Akin

Quote: Trent’s Decree of Justification, canon 16, speaks of "That Great and Special Gift of

Final Perseverance," and chapter 13 of the decree speaks of "the gift of perseverance of

which it is written:

‘He who perseveres to the end shall be saved [Matt. 10:22, 24:13],’

Which cannot be obtained from anyone except from Him who is able to make him who

stands to stand [Rom. 14:4]."

Aquinas said it always saves a person because of the kind of grace it is; The gift of final

perseverance always works.

Catholics even have a special name for the GRACE God gives these people: “the gift of final perseverance.”

The Church formally teaches that there is a gift of final perseverance. [43] Aquinas (and

even Molina) said this grace always ensures that a person will persevere. [44] Aquinas

said, “Predestination [to final salvation] most certainly and infallibly takes effect.”

Aquinas (and even Molina) said this grace always ensures that a person will persevere.

In order to have this perseverance man…needs the divine assistance guiding and

guarding him against the attacks of the passions…” End quote

Without this gift of God’s special grace “The Gift of Final Perseverance.” NONE OF US COULD

MAKE IT TO HEAVEN, without it the destiny of ALL OF US would be IN HELL.

God gives this special protecting and guarding grace to every of His children at baptism

called “The Gift of Final Perseverance.”

THE EFFECTIVENESS OF THIS SPECIAL PROTECTING AND GUARDING GRACE

How far this special protecting and guarding grace goes in our protection?
  1. Aquinas said it always saves a person because of the kind of grace it is; The gift of final perseverance always works.
  2. Aquinas (and even Molina) said this grace always ensures that a person will persevere.
  3. St. Thomas Aquinas, In his Summa Theologiae he wrote:
[P]erseverance is called he abiding in good TO the end of life.

It is also my understanding that eternal does not mean temporary: is that also correct? – It is correct.

God bless

LatinRight**
 
Free will and predestination BOTH occur.

HOW they BOTH take place in man is a mystery.
On this thread there has been (by some) an incorrect mixing-up or conflating of people who are “born again” (born of water and the Spirit) and “the elect”.

Being “born again” and being among “the elect” are not necessarily the same thing.
 
Cathoholic said:
Free will and predestination BOTH occur.

HOW they BOTH take place in man is a mystery.
On this thread there has been (by some) an incorrect mixing-up or conflating of people who are “born again” (born of water and the Spirit) and “the elect”.

Being “born again” and being among “the elect” are not necessarily the same thing.
Click to expand...
free will and predestination are both present in Scripture: to deny one or the other is to ignore huge sections of God’s word.
but ultimately ; who is the final “decider” ; God or man?

Catholic and Protestants don’t mean the same thing by born again:
In Catholicism being born again happens during baptism.

Catholic theology allows for the possibility that an infant could grow up NEVER believing in God their entire life at still be considered born again.

Being “born again” anda life long atheist is impossible by the Protestant use of the word.

Ordo salutis en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordo_salutis
(Calvinism/reformed)
Code: 
Predestination
Election
Calling
** Regeneration** = being born again
Faith
Repentance
Justification
Adoption
Sanctification
Perseverance
Glorification

The Reformed view is this:
There are none who were regenerated/born again that were not elect:
All the elect at some point will be regenerated /born again
 
Alwayswill. You said . . .

QUOTE:
All the elect at some point will be regenerated /born again

I won’t take issue with this statement (although there would be things to fill out this statement - but I won’t go into them here and now).

But you also said:

Quote:
The Reformed view is this:

There are none who were regenerated/born again that were not elect

Where in Scripture do you derive this teaching from?

Where does Scripture say if you are “born again” you are automatically one of “the elect”?
 
alwayswill said:
Catholic and Protestants don’t mean the same thing by born again:
In Catholicism being born again happens during baptism.
Click to expand...
Being born again in Baptism does not guarantee cooperation with that grace. Consentual faith (or cooperating with grace) is being “born of the Spirit”.
Catholic theology allows for the possibility that an infant could grow up NEVER believing in God their entire life at still be considered born again.
Click to expand...
Not entirely true. An infant grown up, is no longer an infant. When one is no longer an infant, they must give consentual faith (or cooperate with grace). For faith to produce fruit.
Being “born again” anda life long atheist is impossible by the Protestant use of the word.
Click to expand...
Yes, we would say there is a rejection of Baptismal grace.
The Reformed view is this:
There are none who were regenerated/born again that were not elect:
All the elect at some point will be regenerated /born again
Click to expand...
Don’t think this is oppositional to the Catholic faith.
 
Cathoholic said:
Free will and predestination BOTH occur.

HOW they BOTH take place in man is a mystery.
On this thread there has been (by some) an incorrect mixing-up or conflating of people who are “born again” (born of water and the Spirit) and “the elect”.

Being “born again” and being among “the elect” are not necessarily the same thing.
Click to expand...
**God bless Cathoholic,

You believe the born again and the elect are not necessarily the same people.

Let’s see about it.

GOD’S PATTERN OF SALVATION

[CCC 600] To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he

establishes his eternal plan of “PREDESTINATION,” he includes in it each person’s

free response to his grace.” End quote.

According to the principle pointed out in CCC 600, God has completed the Book of Life

before the foundation of the world by taken out the names of the reprobates for their

vehement rejection of God and His grace.

From the completion, the Book of Life admits NEITHER ADDITIONS NO ERASURES.

The names of God’s children/elect left in the Book of Life, all of them predestined to heaven.

According to above RCC teaching, there are only two groups of people in the world.

Those people whose names are in the Book of Life, God’s elect.

And those people whose names for THEIR VEHEMENT REJECTION OF GOD AND HIS

GRACE taken out from the Book of Life before the foundation of the world. – All on the way to hell.

Those whose names are in the Book of Life ALL OF THEM ARE PREDESTINED TO

HEAVEN. – At baptism they are born again (born of water and the Spirit), they make up

the BODY OF CHRIST / CHURCH / BRIDE OF CHRIST / ELECT. – All predestined to

heaven/all on the way to heaven.

Cathoholic, can you see any other group between the above two?

Do you believe the BRIDE OF CHRIST is a mixture of the reprobates whose names taken

out from the Book of life for their WEHEMENT REJECTION OF GOD AND HIS GRACE

before the foundation of the world?

Do you believe Cathoholic, while they are on the way to hell God baptizes them into the

Body of Christ and they are become part of the BRIDE OF CHRIST?

Did you think about, what would happen if just even one of them would die in the state of

grace? – God would instantly lose His omniscience.

Yes, some of the reprobates are among us in different Christian groups, some of them

even have water baptism but their baptisms are invalid, if they would have valid baptism

and some of them would die one second after their baptism, God would instantly lose His omniscience.

If you Cathoholic read the Joint Declaration you see, without faith the baptism is invalid.

By the way, I still waiting for your answer of my question.

Thanks in advance.

God bless

LatinRight**
 
LatinRite.

Go back and re-read your own posts concerning CCC 600.

Predestination is in there AND free will (“each person’s free response to his grace”) is in there.

Everything I said here I stand by.

Being born again does NOT mean you are automatically one of “the elect”.

Nothing you quoted remotely intimates this either.

Being born again means you have the life of God poured into you in a special way ordinarily through Baptism (God is not bound by this. We are CCC 1257).

But you need to consider “each person’s free response to his grace” of being born again (Baptized). This is a LIFELONG consideration.

Salvation is not a mere moment. It a moment followed by a lifelong process.

Some people may CHOOSE to REAMAIN in the Vine they were placed in with grace and helped maintain by grace.

Some people may FREELY CHOOSE NOT to REMAIN in the Vine.

If they “shipwreck their faith” (as St. Paul calls it in 1st Timothy 1:9), it is a very sad thing.
If they CHOOSE someday to throw away their gift of charity, it is terrible.
If they don’t repent of shipwrecking their faith or repenting of choosing to NOT DO the works they did at first Jesus will do as they wish. Jesus will respect their free will. Jesus will remove their lampstand.

If I recall correctly you said on another post from another thread that you came into the Catholic Church via some sort of Calvinism (if I recall correctly. Forgive me if I am not recollecting this perfectly). Those teachings can be hard to shake. I attended Baptist Sunday School as a kid. I know those ideas can be tough to dispel.

Catholicism does NOT teach once saved always saved!

(Nor does Lutheranism, and a host of other Protestant groups for that matter)

Eternal security (and variations of it) are NOT Catholic teaching.

Eternal security is taught NOWHERE in Scripture.

Many Bible-only Christians affirm the Catholic view on this (NO “once saved always saved”).

I think you are confused about “the elect” and being “born again”.
 
LatinRite said:

QUOTE:
QUESTION

A Christian stands before the judgment seat and ALL his works are REJECTED by God

because not even an iota of his work was qualified as good work/supernatural work;

Where this person ends up in heaven or in hell?

Then LatinRite later said:

QUOTE:
By the way, I still waiting for your answer of my question.

The reason I didn’t answer your question is because it has a flawed premise.

I already differentiated between our mere works and allowing God to work IN YOU earlier in the thread.

That’s part of what the GRACE of charity is LatinRite.

It’s not our mere works on our own.

It is our work united to Christ.

That’s WHY I quoted 2nd Corinthians 6:1.

That’s WHY I wrote about REMAINING in the Vine or REMAINING in Jesus.

(“Apart from me you can do nothing” Jesus says. . . . But WITH Jesus, you CAN do some things LatinRite).

That’s what St. Augustine is talking about when the CCC quotes him saying something to the effect that when Jesus crowns our good works He crowns HIS WORK just before CCC 2006.

I’ll paraphrase. Jesus is doing no less than crowning His own works in us and through us (COOPERATED with our free will).

So the fact that your works on your own are useless is irrelevant.

I don’t say my works on their own count for anything OK?

That’s why I didn’t answer your question. Because it has a built-in false premise that could lead readers here to think I assert that–and I don’t assert that.
 
Cathoholic said:
LatinRite.

Go back and re-read your own posts concerning CCC 600.

Predestination is in there AND free will (“each person’s free response to his grace”) is in there.

Everything I said here I stand by.

Being born again does NOT mean you are automatically one of “the elect”.

Nothing you quoted remotely intimates this either.

Being born again means you have the life of God poured into you in a special way ordinarily through Baptism (God is not bound by this. We are CCC 1257).

But you need to consider “each person’s free response to his grace” of being born again (Baptized). This is a LIFELONG consideration.

Salvation is not a mere moment. It a moment followed by a lifelong process.

Some people may CHOOSE to REAMAIN in the Vine they were placed in with grace and helped maintain by grace.

Some people may FREELY CHOOSE NOT to REMAIN in the Vine.

If they “shipwreck their faith” (as St. Paul calls it in 1st Timothy 1:9), it is a very sad thing.
If they CHOOSE someday to throw away their gift of charity, it is terrible.
If they don’t repent of shipwrecking their faith or repenting of choosing to NOT DO the works they did at first Jesus will do as they wish. Jesus will respect their free will. Jesus will remove their lampstand.

If I recall correctly you said on another post from another thread that you came into the Catholic Church via some sort of Calvinism (if I recall correctly. Forgive me if I am not recollecting this perfectly). Those teachings can be hard to shake. I attended Baptist Sunday School as a kid. I know those ideas can be tough to dispel.

Catholicism does NOT teach once saved always saved!

(Nor does Lutheranism, and a host of other Protestant groups for that matter)

Eternal security (and variations of it) are NOT Catholic teaching.

Eternal security is taught NOWHERE in Scripture.

Many Bible-only Christians affirm the Catholic view on this (NO “once saved always saved”).

I think you are confused about “the elect” and being “born again”.
Click to expand...
**God bless Cathoholic,

I was evangelical Christian. I didn’t know Calvinism and I never believed it.

I didn’t even believed OSAS until I read the Catholic teaching on Predestination of the elect.

Now let’s go back to the elect and the born again and I show you Cathoholic step by step

that the born again and the elect are the exact same people.

According to RCC teachings, there are only two groups of people.

a. Those whose names are in the Book of Life. – They are all on the way to heaven.

All of those whose names are in the Book of Life MUST END UP IN HEAVEN.

b. Those whose names are taken out from the Book of Life for their vehement rejection of

God and His grace. – They are all on the way to hell.

All those whose names taken out from the book of Life MUST END UP IN HELL.

Are we so far agree with each other Cathoholic?**
 
Cathoholic said:
LatinRite said:

QUOTE:
QUESTION

A Christian stands before the judgment seat and ALL his works are REJECTED by God

because not even an iota of his work was qualified as good work/supernatural work;

Where this person ends up in heaven or in hell?

Then LatinRite later said:

QUOTE:
By the way, I still waiting for your answer of my question.

The reason I didn’t answer your question is because it has a flawed premise.

I already differentiated between our mere works and allowing God to work IN YOU earlier in the thread.

That’s part of what the GRACE of charity is LatinRite.

It’s not our mere works on our own.

It is our work united to Christ.

That’s WHY I quoted 2nd Corinthians 6:1.

That’s WHY I wrote about REMAINING in the Vine or REMAINING in Jesus.

(“Apart from me you can do nothing” Jesus says. . . . But WITH Jesus, you CAN do some things LatinRite).

That’s what St. Augustine is talking about when the CCC quotes him saying something to the effect that when Jesus crowns our good works He crowns HIS WORK just before CCC 2006.

I’ll paraphrase. Jesus is doing no less than crowning His own works in us and through us (COOPERATED with our free will).

So the fact that your works on your own are useless is irrelevant.

I don’t say my works on their own count for anything OK?

That’s why I didn’t answer your question. Because it has a built-in false premise that could lead readers here to think I assert that–and I don’t assert that.
Click to expand...
**Cathoholic it is a simple question and the exact answer is in the Scripture.

Described in 1 Cor.3:12-15. - End up in heaven.

God bless LatinRight**
 
Cathoholic said:
LatinRite said:

QUOTE:
QUESTION

A Christian stands before the judgment seat and ALL his works are REJECTED by God

because not even an iota of his work was qualified as good work/supernatural work;

Where this person ends up in heaven or in hell?

Then LatinRite later said:

QUOTE:
By the way, I still waiting for your answer of my question.

The reason I didn’t answer your question is because it has a flawed premise.

I already differentiated between our mere works and allowing God to work IN YOU earlier in the thread.

That’s part of what the GRACE of charity is LatinRite.

It’s not our mere works on our own.

It is our work united to Christ.

That’s WHY I quoted 2nd Corinthians 6:1.

That’s WHY I wrote about REMAINING in the Vine or REMAINING in Jesus.

(“Apart from me you can do nothing” Jesus says. . . . But WITH Jesus, you CAN do some things LatinRite).

That’s what St. Augustine is talking about when the CCC quotes him saying something to the effect that when Jesus crowns our good works He crowns HIS WORK just before CCC 2006.

I’ll paraphrase. Jesus is doing no less than crowning His own works in us and through us (COOPERATED with our free will).

So the fact that your works on your own are useless is irrelevant.

I don’t say my works on their own count for anything OK?

That’s why I didn’t answer your question. Because it has a built-in false premise that could lead readers here to think I assert that–and I don’t assert that.
Click to expand...
**God bless Cathoholic,

Now I answer the question.

QUESTION

A Christian stands before the judgment seat and ALL his works are REJECTED by God

because not even an iota of his work was qualified as good work/supernatural work;

Where this person ends up in heaven or hell?

It is a simple Question.

The answer is described in 1 Cor.3:12-15. – He is end up in heaven.

God bless

LatinRight**
 
Ultimately refering to Tim Staples article here

catholic.com/blog/tim-staples/born-again-the-bible-way

does nothing concerning the errors I have pointed out.

Errors such as saying if you are born again (baptized), you are automatically one of the elect.

And I am saying that this is wrong, the Bible never teaches it, the Church has never taught it, the Fathers never taught it, and it contradicts other teachings which warn you can fall away from grace.
Now you see first hand jane_doe, why I said sola fide is a hodge podge of traditions all claiming to be the “true” Gospel, yet having positions of diametric opposition to one another in some areas . . . in many instances within Protestantism.

Since conflicting ideas cannot BOTH be true, they ALL cannot be the fullness of truth.

The (false) teachings that conflict with the true teaching have NOT come from God, at least in their totality.

This is WHY they are traditions of men.

And when these traditions of men, attack true truths they “make void the word of God” in that area.

“Sola fide” can be formulated in a TRUE way IF you define “Faith” as including graces of faith, hope, charity, perseverance, cooperation of free will, Baptism, Christ transforming and not merely covering you, etc. etc.

And besides Catholics, there are some Lutheran Protestant and other Protestant Christians that all believe this as Pope Francis has pointed out.

They “all” (in a group sense), hold to this teaching (there are people from all these groups who hold to correct teaching).

But there are INDIVIDUALS that do NOT “all” hold to these teachings too (not “all” Protestants in a universal sense hold to Catholic teachings on justification. Unfortunately sometimes Catholics deny Catholic teaching too).
  • “All” in a group sense different from . . . .
  • “All” in an individual sense
There is a universal individual sense where there is great division. And you’ve seen an example of it here on this thread.

You have people denying Baptism is being born again or being born of water and the Spirit.

We’ve seen people say being born again automatically makes you of the elect (saying in effect you cannot fall away from grace) with absolutely no support whatsoever (except repeating their opinion and adding more capital letters to their erroneous traditions).

We have seen it wrongly inferred that God predestines people to hell. Yet God predestines NOBODY to Hell.

We have seen people MINIMIZE the Gospel by saying Christ covers their sins (which sounds pretty good . . . until you look at it more carefully) thereby denying that Christ covers AND transforms the sinner.

We have seen people implicitly asserting being “born again” is merely their prayer to “accept Jesus into their heart as personal lord and savior” – something that is never once mentioned in the Bible.

We have seen people REDUCE salvation down to a moment instead of a MOMEMENT followed by a lifelong PROCESS.

We’ve seen grace reduced down to the grace of faith (implying a denial of the grace of supernatural hope and its necessity and another denial of the grace of supernatual charity and its necessity - or they imply they all are automatically there and remain there if you have faith).

I HAVE explicitly affirmed the need for supernatural grace, and still got (falsely) painted as denying the need for faith (the old “straw man” attack against the Catholic faith).

We’ve seen “faith alone” contorted into unworkable formulas so we can attempt to agree (which has some elements of truth IF you are very careful about definitions and everyone understands each other well).

And there are even MORE differences and traditions of men than these.

That’s WHY I mentioned way back in I think it was an early post here, that sola fide in Protestantism is undefinable unless you ask the sola fide adherent to define it for him/her self.

There is not just difference between Catholics and Protestants on this (and admittedly uninformed Catholics), but the differences WITHIN Protestantism is profound too.
 
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