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Michael68
Guest
Yes, I agree with this. Its very similar to what St. Loius De Montefort wrote.
What does the average secular person think of the Blessed Virgin Mary?
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Michael68
Guest
What is too far?
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Kaninchen
Guest
This thread seems to have wandered quite a way from what secular people do or do not think. 
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Marie5890
Guest
In both Catholicism and Orthodoxy she is known under numberless titles,
There are many devotions to her even besides the Rosary, etc.
I know we don’t worship Mary, and I have my own devotion to her.
Having come from the outside though, I can understand why those who Non-Catholic Non Orthodox Christian can have the view that devotions to her go too far.
It’s also important to point out that all the devotions etc are private devotions and not required.
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Marie5890
Guest
I think, ultimately, Drac nailed it.This thread seems to have wandered quite a way from what secular people do or do not think.
Secularists don’t believe in the virgin birth, so, well for them with that belief, makes everything associated with her a house of cards that falls.
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MichaelP3
Guest
So taking your first part you say we should all thank Mary because her choice would have made God damn us all… interesting
Comparing “what if Mary said no” to “what if Jesus had sinned” is quite concerning considering Catholics actually ascertain they are not putting her in an equal place with Christ. Thus I give you the chance to make a different comparison that will help your case.
Try not to read into my posts to what I may imply? I argue it from a Catholic viewpoint. My belief in this regard doesn’t matter in this case. Point, the Catholic understanding of Free Will does not reconcile with this, if you disagree, focus on that point.
The bolded part is firstly a bit mean and I will try not to be too sensitive. Secondly as you should have noticed, I responded to someones off topic post in the first place. You don’t just need to target the Protestant.
Anyway. Regards!
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MichaelP3
Guest
If you believe in the Trinity, then I have absolutely no idea why you would even state that?
And also this comparing “What Mary did” to “What Jesus did” is somewhat a concern.
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Kaninchen
Guest
I suppose it depends on what one means by ‘secularists’ as well, if they’re non-believers in God/the divinity of Jesus and so on, she’d be just a character in a story.
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YehoiakhinEx232
Guest
Well, how do you think they’d react to all the things I’ve said in this thread and more?
Like how she is the strongest and bravest women ever! No women could ever surpass her in strength and courage and only one man can and does surpass her in this, although He’s also God so it could be debatable whether that counts. She went through her seven sorrows, seeing her Son go through His passion and never uttered or thought one complaint and even willed it to some degree for our sake, though crucified her Son and her God she feels no anger or resentment towards but embraces us as her children and desires our salvation and eternal happiness.
Wouldn’t that at least spark their curiosity?
Glory to God!
and
Hail Mary!
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YehoiakhinEx232
Guest
Well most non-believers these days get pretty impassioned over fictional stories so again, you’d think they’d be interested in His-story.
Glory to God!
and
Hail Mary!
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HerCrazierHalf
Guest
Why would there be much reaction? Aren’t most “secularist” former Christians anyways? Therefore, what you stated above is something they were previously taught and possibly believed?
It is part of what gives you hope, happiness, and satisfaction in life. Therefore, why would there be a huge reaction? That would just be rude.
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YehoiakhinEx232
Guest
Does God have freewill or not? If not what’s controlling Him?
Yes, in His divine nature Jesus cannot sin because sin is totally against His nature. He couldn’t sin because His human will and His divine will were united but He did feel the full wait of temptation, so yes He, unlike Mary couldn’t say “no”. But it’s not because He doesn’t have freewill (though probably not like ours) after all it was His will to become incarnate and sacrifice Himself for us. It was because sin goes totally against His Divine nature that He couldn’t say “no”.
Just as a side note since we’re on Christology and sin, in the Agony of the Garden, some commentators believe (and I believe this too) that what’s happening here is that Jesus is experiencing all the sins of all humanity throughout all of history. Now God himself cannot suffer, the fathers and the doctors of the Church are very clear on that, but He sees sin clearly for what it is and how evil and against Him it is! But the Son of God, being incarnate can suffer it through His Human nature and so that is why He’s sweating blood. So if anyone here is struggle with sin (like me) and or is somewhat or fully a willing slave to sin I’d you meditate on this when you have the time.
Glory to God!
and
Hail Mary!
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Lea101
Guest
My friends tend to think she is the result of the church worshipping motherhood and virginity (you know, like they like mothers but they don’t like women who have sex, so mary is a virgin and a mother). Many christians from other churches sometimes have this view, I usually see comments like that
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YehoiakhinEx232
Guest
If Adam and Eve’s saying “no” to God would condemn us to this life of sickness, mortality and sin, than it would make sense that if Mary said “no” we all would suffer a serious consequence for Mary’s choice. Mary is the New Eve as the early Church Fathers say, her choice determined whether or not Humanity would be saved, just as the old Eve’s decision determined whether or not Humanity would fall.
In regards to comparing asking the questions “what if Mary said no” to “what if Jesus sinned” I mean in the sense that everything happened according to God’s plan He knew completely and totally what He was doing when He made Mary and had His Son become incarnate through her. Jesus couldn’t sin because He was God. Mary could, but God totally predisposed her not to and made her totally free from sin so that she could carry God incarnate in her womb and care for Him as His Mother. Why would the Son of God have as His mother one who was a daughter of Satan? Surely His Mother had to be completely free from the World, the Flesh, and the Devil in order be a Mother over Him who emptied Himself and took the form of a servant though not to sin.
Glory to God!
and
Hail Mary!
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Marie5890
Guest
Not, necessarily, no. Why? I don’t know if you are aware of this, but many non-believers think Jesus himself is just another pious myth that has come down thru the ages, and that would mean they think the same Mary.
There are others who agree that there may have been a historical Jesus, but the whole Son of God, divine part, was part of the legend that grew over time with the cult following (using the word “cult” the way the Church uses it here; not meaning it in it’s more modern definition)
Why do I say this? Because I have extended family who think this way.
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psalm90
Guest
I think the average secular person is not connected with Mary, who for a long time, was the most well-known woman in history (it’s been said).
In my 12 years of Catholic school, I only knew what I was told, and that was what Catholic Tradition was passing on. Even with that background, I found myself immersed in Marian hymns and rosaries without a conviction for that – even May crowning ceremonies.
I know a guy who was brought up Catholic but as an adult just made fun of it, singing “daily daily sing to Mary” as what seemed to be mockery.
A purely secular person may have no idea of who Mary is and why she is important, and wouldn’t appreciate it if you told them (unless they were suddenly converted by the grace of God). The only time I hear Mary’s name used publicly is during professional football games (US) in the context of “hail mary pass” - referring to someone presumably praying to Mary that a football pass is completed - probably a sacriligious prayer anyway.
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Kaninchen
Guest
That’s all within the Christian narrative which they (like me) don’t share - mothers of sons crucified by the Romans were not exactly thin on the ground anywhere in the Empire, you know, there would have been many, many thousands of them alive at any one time.
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Kaninchen
Guest
The devotion to Mary is remarkable in that there’s so little about her in the Christian scriptures. The thing is that conjecturing about her, outside the Catholic narrative, is territory upon which this particular Veteran Member is very wary of travelling. 
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WilliamE
Guest
I think that’s the best description of Catholicism I’ve ever seen.
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goout
Guest
One have one small problem: it doesn’t describe Catholicism.
So then what is your description?
A delusion?
Or an intentional deception?
Or ignorance.
The choices are pretty easy.
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