What does the average secular person think of the Blessed Virgin Mary?

[WilliamE]

A delusion?
Or an intentional deception?
Or ignorance.

Those are descriptions of religion in general.

 

[goout]

Those are descriptions of religion in general.

Are you including your own in that assessment, or only that of others?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Who?

 

[WilliamE]

Are you including your own in that assessment, or only that of others?

I don’t have one.

 

[goout]

I don’t have one.

You don’t have beliefs?
Or you don’t claim to have them?

You may reply that you simply don’t claim an organized religion. That doesn’t mean you aren’t here with your beliefs.
You have beliefs about Catholicism obviously.

 

[WilliamE]

You don’t have beliefs?
Or you don’t claim to have them?

You may reply that you simply don’t claim an organized religion. That doesn’t mean you aren’t here with your beliefs.
You have beliefs about Catholicism obviously.

I have an opinion about Catholicism, but I’m not sure it rises to the level of a belief.

Anyway…I really didn’t intend for my off-the-cuff comment to result in a big back-and-forth with anyone. Honestly, this is a topic about which I have little interest. So with that, let me bid you a good day.

 

[YehoiakhinEx232]

It is part of what gives you hope, happiness, and satisfaction in life.

Wrong! (Well unless by happiness you mean joy, there is a slight difference between the meaning of the words “happiness” and “joy” that most people don’t understand)

One of my favourite aspects of the Catholic faith is its teaching on suffering. I know from my own experiences that meaningful suffering is better than meaningless pleasure, the Catholic Church with it’s doctrines on redemptive suffering and the sacrifice of the cross takes this to a whole new level. This by the way is my No. 1 biggest problem with Protestants, they don’t preach Christ Crucified as St. Paul commands us to, for them the crucifixion is just something that happened in the past that we don’t have worry about anymore, not something one’s life should revolve around.

Religion, or at least Catholicism is not about happiness and satisfaction, it is about meaning. Our God is Meaning Himself, Being Himself, Truth Himself, His name in Hebrew is YHWH which translate to “He Who Is” and God the Son is referred to as the Logos which is often translated as “The Word” but actually means something along the lines of “The rationality of existence.” My favourite argument for the existence of God is the Argument from Contingency which basically states that (this is an oversimplification of it) all things in existence are not existence itself (for when something ceases to exist existence itself doesn’t cease to exist) but are dependent upon something in order to exist, this something is called God, for He is Existence Himself, Truth Himself (again this an over simplified and kind of messy form of the argument, feel free to look it up in your spare time) This what I seek Meaning and Truth not pleasure and satisfaction.

Glory to God!
and
Hail Mary!

 

[YehoiakhinEx232]

Not, necessarily, no. Why? I don’t know if you are aware of this, but many non-believers think Jesus himself is just another pious myth that has come down thru the ages, and that would mean they think the same Mary.

There are others who agree that there may have been a historical Jesus, but the whole Son of God, divine part, was part of the legend that grew over time with the cult following (using the word “cult” the way the Church uses it here; not meaning it in it’s more modern definition)

Why do I say this? Because I have extended family who think this way.

That’s true, by the way don’t get used to the idea of an “historical Jesus” being around for much longer. My personal speculation is that as atheists begin to realize more and more the overwhelming evidence for the historical fact of Jesus’ resurrection from the dead, the more they’ll turn to becoming Christ-mythers and deny Jesus’ existence as that will be the only way out.

Glory to God!
and
Hail Mary!

 

[YehoiakhinEx232]

I think the average secular person is not connected with Mary, who for a long time, was the most well-known woman in history (it’s been said).

In my 12 years of Catholic school, I only knew what I was told, and that was what Catholic Tradition was passing on. Even with that background, I found myself immersed in Marian hymns and rosaries without a conviction for that – even May crowning ceremonies.

I know a guy who was brought up Catholic but as an adult just made fun of it, singing “daily daily sing to Mary” as what seemed to be mockery.

A purely secular person may have no idea of who Mary is and why she is important, and wouldn’t appreciate it if you told them (unless they were suddenly converted by the grace of God). The only time I hear Mary’s name used publicly is during professional football games (US) in the context of “hail mary pass” - referring to someone presumably praying to Mary that a football pass is completed - probably a sacriligious prayer anyway.

Yeah it’s funny you bring up the collapse of the faith and lukewarm Marian devotions among Catholics. I have a leather-bound version of Saint Louis De Montfort’s True Devotion to The Blessed Virgin Mary and in it is a preface by a Father Faber written 1862 where he reports indifference and a reluctance to preach on Mary. The Traditional Catholic narrative of all the current problems in the Church stemming from Vatican II is a myth, this Crisis goes back centuries and quite frankly we need to do something about it because it’s getting worse!

“All the evil in the world is do to lukewarm Catholics” - Pope St. Pius V

Glory to God!
and
Hail Mary!

 

[cheese_sdc]

Doubt she crosses their minds.

I dunno. I’m pretty secular and I think the devotion to Mary is sorta funny. Y’all have removed all trace of the divine feminine from your deity, so you aggrandize Mary to the point were she’s near divine.

And before there are 1000 posts defending Marian theology, I already know y’all Catholics don’t consider her divine.

The OP was asking the average secular person’s opinion. Well, that’s mine. Y’all have nearly placed her as co-mediatrix because you can’t bear the thought of a feminine god. But human nature craves that balance of masculine/feminine.

runs for cover

 

[goout]

I dunno. I’m pretty secular and I think the devotion to Mary is sorta funny. Y’all have removed all trace of the divine feminine from your deity, so you aggrandize Mary to the point were she’s near divine.

And before there are 1000 posts defending Marian theology, I already know y’all Catholics don’t consider her divine.

The OP was asking the average secular person’s opinion. Well, that’s mine. Y’all have nearly placed her as co-mediatrix because you can’t bear the thought of a feminine god. But human nature craves that balance of masculine/feminine.

runs for cover

You do realize that God has no gender?

 

[YehoiakhinEx232]

That’s all within the Christian narrative which they (like me) don’t share.

I just thought that, the way people react to new and unusual things that they’ve never heard of before, like they do with other religions, they might be drawn to the Gebirah Shamayim and Mariology. As Mary and our faith not only contain beautiful things few on the outside has ever heard of, but are also rational and true. Unfortunately, not only do people have a prejudice against our faith but, and I hate to bring this up, recent events have revealed that some people are actually appalled at the idea of a rational religion: ncregister.com/daily-news/presidential-politics-and-the-abolition-of-truth

Glory to God!
and
Hail Mary!

 

[Kaninchen]

I just thought that, the way people react to new and unusual things that they’ve never heard of before, like they do with other religions, they might be drawn to the Gebirah Shamayim and Mariology. As Mary and our faith not only contain beautiful things few on the outside has ever heard of, but are also rational and true. Unfortunately, not only do people have a prejudice against our faith but, and I hate to bring this up, recent events have revealed that some people are actually appalled at the idea of a rational religion: ncregister.com/daily-news/presidential-politics-and-the-abolition-of-truth

Glory to God!
and
Hail Mary!

As I intimated in another reply, there are areas that complete outsiders are better off avoiding.

 

[YehoiakhinEx232]

I dunno. I’m pretty secular and I think the devotion to Mary is sorta funny. Y’all have removed all trace of the divine feminine from your deity, so you aggrandize Mary to the point were she’s near divine.

And before there are 1000 posts defending Marian theology, I already know y’all Catholics don’t consider her divine.

The OP was asking the average secular person’s opinion. Well, that’s mine. Y’all have nearly placed her as co-mediatrix because you can’t bear the thought of a feminine god. But human nature craves that balance of masculine/feminine.

runs for cover

As another person has pointed out, God has no gender (well that’s not entirely true, as God the Son incarnated as a man and has risen body and soul into Heaven as a man and is still a man today) although it is more complicated than that and I’m more than happy to discuss that. Though not tomorrow because tomorrow is Sunday and every Sunday after Mass, I plan on spending most of the day praying, meditating and reading and avoiding the internet, so I won’t be able to talk then.

In regards to Mary’s high place of honour, first off, as I mentioned at the beginning of this thread, Mary plays a special role in the human race, she is humanity at it’s absolute height. She is the Queen of Humanity, not just in the sense she is a powerful woman who has authority over us, though she is that too, but in the sense that a mother bee is queen of her hive. That’s why I said that people who want to “restore their faith in humanity” or claim to have a “love for humanity” need to learn about Mary, because people who try to glorify humanity really don’t humanity enough credit because they have no idea how great Humanity is, unless they know the greatest human being ever (well apart from Jesus but he is also 100% God as well as 100% Human so it’s kind of confusing), Mary is not just femininity at its absolute height but humanity at its absolute height. In regards to Mary as Co-Mediatrix, that one is actually quite easy to understand because quite simple, without a Co-Mediatrix, there would be no Mediator. Mary had to mediate between God the Father and humanity by allowing God the Son to incarnate in her womb in order for Him to become the Mediator. Now if Mary already had been the Mediatrix of the Son of God, so to speak, between God the Father and Humanity than (not to down play her role) her being the Mediatrix of All Grace isn’t really that big of a deal.

Now, in regards to the masculine/feminine balance. I really don’t want to open up a discussion about feminism because my mom, while definitely not a feminist and she probably strongly disagrees with a lot of feminists’ beliefs, she has the same weakness and cowardice I see among feminists and feminist ideology. So I really don’t want to get into a discussion about feminism because I’m scared I might get mad and lose it. But I would like to comment on how feminism (and also the transgender movement and other, similar movements for that matter) messes with the masculine/feminine balance and question whether you have concern about that?

Glory to God!
and
Hail Mary!

 

[cheese_sdc]

You do realize that God has no gender?

Hahahaha!

Please show me where, in any Catholic document, that God the Father is referenced in anything but masculine terms.

 

[cheese_sdc]

So I really don’t want to get into a discussion about feminism because I’m scared I might get mad and lose it. But I would like to comment on how feminism (and also the transgender movement and other, similar movements for that matter) messes with the masculine/feminine balance and question whether you have concern about that?

If you want to discuss feminism, there are much smarter people than I. I am a feminist, and I have lots of transgender friends, but I don’t understand your question.

 

[goout]

Hahahaha!

Please show me where, in any Catholic document, that God the Father is referenced in anything but masculine terms.

Let me repeat the point which you obviously do not understand:
God does not have a gender. You can do research on the Catholic pov, you don’t need to rely on me.
Go ahead…

 

[cheese_sdc]

Let me repeat the point which you obviously do not understand:
God does not have a gender. You can do research on the Catholic pov, you don’t need to rely on me.
Go ahead…

This is why I don’t think you are discussing the issue in good faith. You are absolutely correct in saying that Catholic teaching doesn’t ascribe a gender to God. Yet the reality is that for 2000 years the language, symbolism, and iconography of God has been so overwhelming masculine I don’t understand how this is even a discussion.

Have you ever prayed “Our Mother, who art in Heaven…”?

 

[YehoiakhinEx232]

If you want to discuss feminism, there are much smarter people than I. I am a feminist, and I have lots of transgender friends, but I don’t understand your question.

I too am a bit feministic (though certainly not mainstream, which is the type of feminism I am referring to) in fact one of the last things that kept me form reverting to the Catholic Faith, was the Church’s teaching on authentic femininity. I like to think that my stance was based off of an genuine concern for the dignity of women. But in hind sight, it looks like it stemmed from my being raised by a weak mother and thus when I heard Catholics preaching about authentic femininity I falsely assumed that the Church wanted to make women weak and cowardly like my mother.

Mainstream feminists undermine the masculine/feminine balance in two ways first, (and all forms of mainstream feminists share this belief in whole or in part) they claim that being a woman is essentially a disability that needs to be cured through contraception and abortion and that only men are really persons, women to be men in order to be persons. The second way that feminists undermine the masculine/feminine balance, and this is done more by the new “pro-sex” feminists (really anti-sex because they’re not promoting real sex, but stimulating thoughts and behavior that mocks real sex) that woman are sub-human sex beasts, that can only gain a say in society by degrading themselves in order to seduce men.

In regards to the transgender movement, it treats the sexes not as gifts from God, that are deep and meaningful aspect of who and what one is. But as merely outward bodily features that can be removed and replaced at the arbitrary caprice of the individual.

Glory to God!
and
Hail Mary!

 

[YehoiakhinEx232]

In regards to comparing asking the questions “what if Mary said no” to “what if Jesus sinned” I mean in the sense that everything happened according to God’s plan He knew completely and totally what He was doing when He made Mary and had His Son become incarnate through her.

Maybe a better analogy might be: What if the Jews accepted Jesus as their Messiah and He never died on the Cross as a sacrifice for our sins? Everything happened and everyone acted exactly as God planned it.

Glory to God!
and
Hail Mary!