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Cricket13
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I love learning about some of the living fossils that exist today, I mostly love sea based ones. They’re defiantly a cool insight to the past.
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SetInMotion
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As I said, the ECF, nearly unanimously taught that:
Lactantius (c. 250 – c. 325) -
"… [page 460] Plato and many others of the philosophers, since they were ignorant of the origin of all things, and of that primal period at which the world was made, said that many thousands of ages had passed since this beautiful arrangement of the world was completed; and in this they perhaps followed the Chaldeans [Babylonians] , who, as Cicero has related in his first book respecting divination, [1] foolishly say [2] that they possess comprised in their memorials 470,000 years; in which matter, because they thought that they could not be convicted, they believed that they were at liberty [3] to speak falsely . But we, whom the holy Scriptures instruct to the knowledge of the truth, know the beginning and the end of the world , respecting which we will now speak in the end of our work, since we have explained respecting the beginning in the second book. Therefore let the philosophers, who enumerate thousands of ages from the beginning of the world, know that the six thousandth year is not yet completed , [page 460-461] and that when this number is completed the consumation must take place …
Therefore, since all the works of God were completed in six days, the world must continue in its present state through six ages, that is, six thousand years. For the great day of God is limited by a circle of a thousand years, as the prophet shows, who says, [3] “In Thy sight, O Lord, a thousand years are as one day.” And as God laboured during those six days in creating such great works, so His religion and truth must labour during these six thousand years, while wickedness prevails and bears rule. And again, since God, having finished His works, rested the seventh day and blessed it, at the end of the six thousandth year all wickedness must be abolished from the earth, and righteousness reign for a thousand years; and there must be tranquility and rest from the labours which the world now has long endured. We have often said that lesser things and things of small importance are figures and previous shadowings forth of great things; as this day of ours, which is bounded by the rising and the setting of the sun, is a representation [4] of that great day to which the circuit of a thousand years affixes it limits. [5] [page 461] …" - Ante-Nicene Christian Library: Translations of the Writings of the Fathers ... - Google Books
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MJDorry
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Lactantius was not an ECF. He was an author and educator, but no more than that. Murmurs of heresy aside, of note is that he was more or less a premillenialist who believed Christ would come again at the fall of the then-Roman Empire…
St. Paul himelf, an actual ECF, also thought Jesus was returning in his lifetime. We’re human. We tend to miss the mark with pretty high consistency when we’re not defining doctrine. And the age of the physical universe is distinctly not definable doctrine.
The bible does not deal with time in this capacity, and frankly, insisting upon interposing such quantities within biblical cosmogeny is a gross misunderstanding of the spirit of the scripture.
St. Paul himelf, an actual ECF, also thought Jesus was returning in his lifetime. We’re human. We tend to miss the mark with pretty high consistency when we’re not defining doctrine. And the age of the physical universe is distinctly not definable doctrine.
The bible does not deal with time in this capacity, and frankly, insisting upon interposing such quantities within biblical cosmogeny is a gross misunderstanding of the spirit of the scripture.
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SetInMotion
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Sextus Julius Africanus (c. 160 – c. 240) -
"… [page 130] III. The Extant Fragments of the Five Books of the Chronography of Julius Africanus. I. [1] On the Mythological Chronology of the Egyptians and Chaldeans [Babylonians] .
The Egyptians, indeed, with their boastful notions of their own antiquity, have put forth a sort of account of it by the hand of their astrologers in cycles and myriads of years; which some of those who have had the repute of studying such subjects profoundly have in a summary way called lunar years; and inclining no less than others to the mythical, they think they fall in with the eight or nine thousands of years which the Egyptian priests in Plato falsely reckon up to Solon. [2] [page 130-131]
(And after some other matter
For why should I speak of the three myriad years of the Phœnicians, or of the follies of the Chaldeans, their forty-eight myriads? For the Jews, deriving their origin from them as descendants of Abraham, having been taught a modest mind, and one such as becomes men, together with the truth by the spirit of Moses, have handed down to us, by their extant Hebrew histories, the number of 5500 years as the period up to the advent of the Word of salvation, that was announced to the world in the time of the sway of the Cæsars. …" - The Ante-Nicene Fathers. Translations of The Writings of the Fathers down to A.D. 325.; The Rev. Alexander Roberts, D.D., and James Donaldson, LL.D., Editors.; American Reprint of the Edinburgh Edition.; Revised and Chronologically arranged, with brief prefaces and occasional notes, by A. Cleveland Coxe, D.D.; Volume VI., Gregory Thaumaturgus, Dionysius the Great, Julius Africanus, Anatolius and Minor Writers, Methodius, Arnobius.; Authorized Edition.; NewYork: Charles Scribner’s Sons. 1903. FRAGMENT 1; In Georgius Syncellus, Chron., p. 17, ed. Paris, 14 Venet.; pages 130-131 - The Ante-Nicene Fathers: Translations of the Writings of the Fathers Down to ... - Google Books
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SetInMotion
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Hippolytus of Rome (170 – 235 AD) -
“… And 6000 years must needs be accomplished in order that the Sabbath may come , the rest, the holy day on which God rested from all his works. For the Sabbath is the type and emblem of the future kingdom of the saints, when they shall reign with Christ, when he comes from Heaven, as John says in his Apocalypse: for a day with the Lord is as a thousand years. Since, then, in six days God made all things, it follows that six thousand years must be fulfilled. And they are not yet fulfilled …” - Commentaries on various Books of Scripture. Sect. 4, on Daniel.; The Ante-Nicene Fathers. Translations of The Writings of the Father down to A.D. 325. The Rev. Alexander Robert, D.D., and James Donaldson, LL.D., Editors, American Reprint of the Edinburgh Edition. Revised and Chronologically arranged, with Brief prefaces and Occasional Notes, by A. Cleveland Coxe, D.D., Volume V (5). Hippolytus, Cyprian, Caius, Novatian, Appendix. Authorized Edition. New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons. 1903., page 179 - The Ante-Nicene Fathers: Translations of the Writings of the Fathers Down to ... - Google Books
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SetInMotion
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Irenaeus (died about 202) -
“… and the number is six hundred and sixty-six.” [5] that is, six times a hundred, six times ten, and six units. [He gives this] as a summing up of the whole of that apostasy which has taken place during six thousand years .
3 For in as many days as this world was made, in so many thousand years shall it be concluded . And for this reason the Scripture says: “Thus the heaven and the earth were finished, and all their adornment. And God brought to a conclusion upon the sixth day the works that He had made; and God rested upon he seventh day from all His wokrs.” [6] This is an account of the things formerly created, as also it is a prophecy of what is to come. For the day of the Lord is as a thousand years ; [7] and in six days created things were completed: it is evident, therefore, that they will come to an end at the sixth thousand year . …" - The Ante-Nicene Fathers: The apostolic fathers. Justin Martyr. Irenaeus - Google Books
“… Thus, then, the six hundred years of Noah, in whose time the deluge occured because of the apostasy, and the number of the cubits of the image for which these just men were sent into the fiery furnace, do indicate the number of the name of that man in whom is concentrated the whole apostasy of six thousand years, and unrighteousness, and wickedness, and false prophecy, and deception; for which things’ sake a cataclysm of fire shall also come [upon the earth] . …” - The Ante-Nicene Fathers. Translations of The Writings of the Fathers down to A.D. 325. The Rev. Alexander Roberts, D.D., and James Donaldson, LL.D., Editors. American Reprint of the Edinburgh Edition. Revised and Chronologically Arranged, with Brief prefaces and Occasional Notes, by A. Cleveland Coxe, D.D. Volume I. The Apostolic Fathers. - Justin Martyr. - Irenaeus. New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons. 1903, Irenaeus, Against Heresies; Chapter XXIX. - All things have been created for the service of man. The deceits, wickedness, and apostate power of antichrist. This was prefigured at the deluge, as afterwards by the persecution of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.; page 558 - The Ante-Nicene Fathers: The apostolic fathers. Justin Martyr. Irenaeus - Google Books
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MJDorry
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I got a way shorter quote for you to chew on. Acts 1:6-7:
"So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom of Israel?” He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has fixed by his own authority.”
"So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom of Israel?” He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has fixed by his own authority.”
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SetInMotion
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Peter, Isaiah and John said:
2Pe 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: …
2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years , and a thousand years as one day .
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
2Pe 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless …
Isa_24:22 And they shall be gathered together, as prison ers are gathered in the pit , and shall be shut up in the prison , and after many days shall they be visited.
Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years ,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit , and shut him up , and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled : and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them : … and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years .
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years .
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison ,
See also John 6:39, 40,44,54,11:24, 12:48.
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SetInMotion
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Cyprian of Carthage (c. 200 – September 14, 258 AD) -
“… [page 52] It is an ancient adversary and an old enemy with whom we wage our battle: six thousand years are now nearly completed since the devil first attacked man . [page 52,69] … the first seven days in the divine arrangement containing seven thousand of years …” - The Writings of Cyprian, Bishop of Carthage. Volume II. Containing the remainder of the treatises., together with The Writings of Novatian, Minucius Felix, etc. Translated by Rev. Robert Ernest Wallis, PH.D., Senior Priest Vicar of Wells Cathedral, and Incumbent of Christ Church, Coxley, Somerest. Edinburgh: T. & T. Clark, 38, George Street. London: Hamilton, Adams, & Co. Dublin: J. Robertson & Co. MDCCCLXIX. (1869); The Treatises of Cyprian. Treatise XI., Exhortation to Martyrdom, Addressed to Fortunatus., page 52,69. - The Writings of Cyprian, Bishop of Carthage: Together with the Writings of ... - saint Cyprianus (évêque de Carthage), Novatien, Marcus Minucius Felix - Google Books
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SetInMotion
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Commodianus (AD 250) -
"… [page 451]** We shall be immortal when six thousand years are accomplished. … [page 451]
… [page 474] when six thousand years are completed, and the world has come to an end. **… [page 474] " - The Ante-Nicene Christian Library: Translations of The Writings of the Fathers down to A.D. 325. Edited by the Rev. Alexander Roberts, D.D., and James Donaldson, LL.D., Volume XVIII. The writings of Tertullian, Volume III. with the extant works of Victorinus and Commodianus.; Edinburgh: T. & T. Clark, 38, George Street. MDCCCLXX. (1870); printed by Murray and Gibb, for T. & T. Clark, Edinburgh. London: Hamilton, Adams, and Co.; Dublin: John Robertson and Co.; New York: C. Scribner and Co.; The instructions of Commodianus in favour of Christian Discipline, against the gods of the heathens. (expressed in acrostics); section 35. Of the tree of life and death. & section 80. The name of the man of Gaza; pages 451,474 (respectively) - Ante-Nicene Christian Library: The writings of Tertullian, v. 3, with the ... - Google Books
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MJDorry
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As I said, the ECF were not free of mistake. And anyone’s present preoccupation with such things is trivial at best, dangerous to both soul and mind at worst. Anything that even remotely borders numerology has no place in authentic Christianity.
P.S. Revelation is mystical in nature, not ennumerative.
P.S. Revelation is mystical in nature, not ennumerative.
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SetInMotion
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1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
Jesus even told of the season in Matthew 24:
Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Daniel told of the season:
Dan 2:35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
Jesus was speaking about the exact day/hour of His return, which the Father Himself will speak: Voice of God announcing the hour; Jeremiah 25:30; Joel 2:11, 3:16; Amos 1:2; Job 40:9; Psalms 18:13, 77:18, 104:7; 1 Samuel 2:10; 2 Samuel 22:14; Matthew 24:36; Mark 13:32; John 12:29; 2 Peter 1:17-18; Revelation 14:2; &c, which will come after ‘the door of the Ark’ closes, as it was in the days of Noah.
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SetInMotion
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They all erred? Together, though they repeatedly stated the same things, by scriptural and heirarchical authority?
Victorinus of Pettau (died 303 or 304) -
“… [page 342] that that true and just Sabbath should be observed in the seventh millenary of years. Wherefore to those seven days the Lord attributed to each a thousand years; for thus went the warning: “In Thine eyes, O lord, a thousand years are as one day.” [9] Therefore in the eyes of the Lord each thousand of years is ordained, for I find that the Lord’s eyes are seven. [10] Wherefore, as I have narrated, that true Sabbath will be in the seventh millenary of years, when Christ with His elect shall reign. [page 342] …” - The Ante-Nicene Fathers: Translations of the Writings of the Fathers Down to ... - Google Books
Methodius (died c. 311) -
“… For since in six days God made the heaven and the earth, and finished the whole world, and rested on the seventh day from all his works which he had made, and blessed the seventh day and sanctified it , so by a figure in the seventh month, when the fruits of the earth have been gathered in, we are commanded to keep the feast to the Lord, which signifies that, when this world shall be terminated at the seventh thousand years, when God shall have completed the world, he shall rejoice in us. " …” - The Writings of Methodius, Alexander of Lycopolis, Peter of Alexandria, and ... - Saint Methodius (of Olympus) - Google Books
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MJDorry
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They were describing the Second Coming with metaphor… In acts, Jesus uses the word “season” to make it clear that the time of His second coming is the sole knowledge of the Father.
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MJDorry
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You’re just a person who throws the words of others around haphazerdly to bolster your pre-held convictions. I’m bored with this conversation. Good bye, friend.
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SetInMotion
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They clearly stated that world had not yet reached 6,000 years, and even referred to the pagan calendars as false (such as the Egyptian and Babylonian), what will you do with the Astronomers among them citing the same? For instance Bardesanes:
Latin:
"… Unde sequitur ut pro 100 revolutionibus sex millia annorum essent hoc modo:
200 revolutiones Saturnii 6000 annis.
500 revolutiones Iovis 6000 annis.
4000 revolutiones Martis 6000 annis.
6000 revolutiones Solis 6000 annis.
7200 revolutiones Veneris 6000 annis.
12000 revolutiones Mercurii 6000 annis.
72000 revolutiones Lunae 6000 annis.
Et haec ita numeravit Bardensanes cum vellet ostendere sex millia annorum tantum hunc mundum permansurum esse. - Patrologia syriaca, complectens opera omnia SS. Patrum, doctorum ... - René Graffin - Google Books
Summa Theologica, Thomas Aquinas, stated that the days of Creation were literal, and 24 hours:
Thomas Aquinas ( 1225 – 7 March 1274 ) -
[He begins by rebutting and refuting Augustine] "…by the “evening” and the “morning” … But, according to Basil (Hom. ii in Hexaem.), the entire period takes its name, as is customary, from its more important part, the day . And instance of this is found in the words of Jacob, “The days of my pilgrimage,” where night is not mentioned at all. But the evening and the morning are mentioned as being the ends of the day, since day begins with morning and ends with evening, or because evening denotes the beginning of night, and morning the beginning of day. It seems fitting, also, that where the first distinction of creatures is described, divisions of time should be denoted only by what marks their beginning. And the reason for mentioning the evening first is that as the evening ends the day, which begins with the light, the termination of the light at evening precedes the termination of the darkness, which ends with the morning. But Chrysostom’s explanation is that thereby it is intended to show that the natural day does not end with the evening, but with the morning (Hom. v in Gen.). …
Reply to Objection 7. The words “one day” are used when day is first instituted, to denote that one day is made up of twenty-four hours . Hence, by mentioning “one,” the measure of a natural day is fixed . Another reason may be to signify that a day is completed by the return of the sun to the point from which it commenced its course. And yet another, because at the completion of a week of seven days , the first day returns…" - Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, Question 74, Article 3, Reply to Objection 6 and 7 [ The Summa Theologica of St. Thomas Aquinas
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SetInMotion
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Accusation, but may be safely ignored, since I have provided ample evidence to the contrary, and I will look at any of the above quotations in their original context and even original language if necessary.
I can also cite numerous Jesuit Astronomers, and commentators also.
In fact,
Richard Challoner (Roman Catholic Bishop; reviser of the Douay Rheims (Jesuit) Bible and noted commentator) (1691–1781) -
"… the world has not yet lasted six thousand years …" - Think Well On’t or Reflections on the Great Truths of the Christian Religion, for every day in the month., by Bishop Challoner, and Thirty Days’ Prayer; Clefton, Bristol. Printed and Published by G. Bowen. Sold also by S. Gilbert, 26, Paternoster Row; F.A. Little, Henrietta Street, Covent Garden; Rockliff & Ellis, Liverpool; Spencer, Bath; Clark, Southampton; Lellim Newport, Isle of Wight; and all Booksellers. MDCCCXLI. (1841)- page 52 - Think Well On't, Or, Reflections on the Great Thruths of the Christian ... - Richard Challoner - Google Books
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SetInMotion
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No, it was in regards something else entirely:
Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
“The Kingdom” isn’t restored to Israel at the 2nd coming.
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GiftofMercy
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I won’t watch that you tube because it is over an hour long . Thank you for the link. Unfortunately as far as the discussion about dinosaurs go and their validation as to having existed Mark H Armitage is a young earth creation scientist. I do not think his idea of dinosaurs and geomorphology match the science behind palaeontology.
He also has a very insulting book title out there. It compares The Christ to a microscope.
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GiftofMercy
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It does not. The Catholic Church teaches nothing of the sort.
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