What Does the Pope Say About Female Servers?

[Genesis315]

Here’s a good article on this by Fr. William Most. It provides the text of the Gelasian letter cited in the OP as well as “ordination” rites of deaconesses, including one in the East as from the 17th century.

ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/OTRANTO.TXT

 

[Layman]

Ordained or no, a priest with ****, if you’ll forgive my vulgarity, is a non-starter, with me. A priestess is a different creature entirely. Look at the Wiccans; there’s an echo of Babylon if I ever saw one.

You can dig up a lot of things out of the midden-heap of history. Doesn’t mean they’ll help you get closer to The Presence.

I saw a picture of a well-endowed lady vicar, recently. My reactions were 1. Laughter 2. Cripes, how distracting is that?

Women out of the sancturay I say. Segregate women and men into different rows, so they won’t be tempted by a pair of attractive buttocks; heads down, get on with yer prayers. Like the Muslims do, funnily enough. I think we did it too also, didn’t we?

I just want a good man who’s ‘in’ with Jesus to do a solemn Mass. I come to Church to get a tase of Heaven, not to gaze on Men. Or pretty girls. Or ugly ones, for that matter.

I guess that’s why priests wear flowing robes, also; less distracting to female members of the congregation.

We’ve been diluting our religious practice for decades, yet no mass conversion from Protestants yet. Just a few more things to go, and we’d be no different anyay.

 

[eichenb2]

They are preparing to be among the 1st female priestessessss. Why not Christians follow the culture in everything else

 

[eichenb2]

Ordained or no, a priest with ****, if you’ll forgive my vulgarity, is a non-starter, with me. A priestess is a different creature entirely. Look at the Wiccans; there’s an echo of Babylon if I ever saw one.

You can dig up a lot of things out of the midden-heap of history. Doesn’t mean they’ll help you get closer to The Presence.

I saw a picture of a well-endowed lady vicar, recently. My reactions were 1. Laughter 2. Cripes, how distracting is that?

Women out of the sancturay I say. Segregate women and men into different rows, so they won’t be tempted by a pair of attractive buttocks; heads down, get on with yer prayers. Like the Muslims do, funnily enough. I think we did it too also, didn’t we?

I just want a good man who’s ‘in’ with Jesus to do a solemn Mass. I come to Church to get a tase of Heaven, not to gaze on Men. Or pretty girls. Or ugly ones, for that matter.

I guess that’s why priests wear flowing robes, also; less distracting to female members of the congregation.

We’ve been diluting our religious practice for decades, yet no mass conversion from Protestants yet. Just a few more things to go, and we’d be no different anyay.

Good man. Christians did previously separate men and women in church. Not now though. Christians fall all over themselves to be culturally relevant!

 

[weepixie71]

There is no evidence that the Church “caved” to anything.

But you also claim you never go to the “novus ordo” Mass – so you are clearly in no position to comment on what takes place there.

No, the Church does not have the authority to ordain women.
Equal does not mean the same. Women cannot be fathers and men cannot be mothers. Women cannot be priests.
No, it’s not.

I tire of this discussion since it goes nowhere. Enjoy your life.

Deacon Ed

no what i claim is that i have not gone to a novus ordo mass in a long time. i was raised in the novus ordo mass. the changes were stressful for me to the point to where i would cry at mass because so many things felt empty and wrong. i have said many times the last straw for me was when a priest told me that i should not wear my veil to mass because he feels it is disruptive to his mass because it makes his parishioners feel uncomfortable. so i thought fine ill go where i am not disruptive.
do you think i do not have any friends that go to the novus ordo?i went through 12yrs of catholic schooling in a novus ordo parish. my daughter is homeschooled. we are in a catholic homeschool group. do you think their are no families that are novus ordo in their? some of my siblings still attend the novus ordo!

you are right that the pope said female altar people servers whatever you want to call them says its ok. so now its ok. but this is ok only by a technicality. it is not ok when it causes an upset. hey if i were the only person who felt this way id pout over it and get over it. but im not. what i am trying to tell you, and obviously doing a poor job of it, that women who are wanting female priests are giddy with excitement about this. it is one more thing that can cause a dissension in the church. so why are they risking it? they had to this would upset a lot of people.

what else i see and feel is this is one more thing that in a very short period of time the church has done to cause a larger split between the traditionalists and the modernists at a critical time when we were told the church wants us to be more cohesive. every time the church makes a very bold a drastic change for us it just makes it harder for us to trust what the pope, cardinals, bishops, and priests are doing.

 

[weepixie71]

Unfortunately, Jimmy’s answer was both incomplete and wrong. Women were ordained. The question is whether or not the ordination resulted in Holy Orders (different question). Remember that the term “ordination” used to be applied to many different events other than the conferral of Holy Orders. Men were “ordained” as lectors, as acolytes and even as porters – none of which implied Holy Orders.

We have to be careful about terminology – and this is where Mr. Akin was lacking in his reply.

Deacon Ed

ok lets say you are right. women were once likely to have been ordained deacons as a complete sacramental. why did they stop? why for centuries did the popes throughout most of its history speak like it never happened?
is it possible that like today some disreputable bishops ordained female priestesses that some bishops back then pushed the envelope and ordained female deacons?
is their canon law that you can find that ever supported that this was alright to be done?

some people also say in the 12th century women were ordained priests. in the 12th and 13th century during a struggle for political power women were “vilified”. they were then demoted to deaconesses. the catholic church covered it up quickly till it was all but forgotten.

 

[savienu]

ok lets say you are right. women were once likely to have been ordained deacons as a complete sacramental. why did they stop? why for centuries did the popes throughout most of its history speak like it never happened?
is it possible that like today some disreputable bishops ordained female priestesses that some bishops back then pushed the envelope and ordained female deacons?
is their canon law that you can find that ever supported that this was alright to be done?

some people also say in the 12th century women were ordained priests. in the 12th and 13th century during a struggle for political power women were “vilified”. they were then demoted to deaconesses. the catholic church covered it up quickly till it was all but forgotten.

Thank you. Lest we not forget there were abuses even then, and no one in the Vatican has ever said women were ordained.

 

[Just_Lurking]

why did they stop?

Women cannot be ordained as priests. When the permanent diaconate disappeared, so that the only deacons were transitional deacons on their way to becoming priests, how could deaconesses still fit in this new picture?

why for centuries did the popes throughout most of its history speak like it never happened?

I don’t know what papal statement(s) you are referring to here. Could you identify them?

is it possible that like today some disreputable bishops ordained female priestesses that some bishops back then pushed the envelope and ordained female deacons?

No, that is not possible. It is clear that deaconesses were permitted (i.e. licit).

The only question is whether the liturgical ceremony by which they were installed into office conveyed the sacrament of Holy Orders.

 

[kyria]

As a mother who has both a boy and a girl and who both served as alter servers last year, I have no problem with girls serving. My son pulled out, but his sister didn’t. She wants to be seen as a worthwhile member of the Church, and she was able to participate in some way for a short period. I think linking girls serving with female priest ideas is a bit of a stretch. And with the shortage of nuns, if allowing girls to be servers might actually encourage some girls to head towards this vocation, I am all for it.

You have a small group of dissenters that want female priests, but you also have groups of dissenters that want the Church to change it’s mind about Contraception, homosexuality, abortion etc. We’ve always had some dissenters pushing certain reforms.

I don’t buy the argument about the worry it will promote more people to push for female priests. What I do see is an opportunity for our daughters, if they choose, to have an opportunity to be more involved in our Church, and hopefully by feeling they are contributing and being involved, they will stick with the Faith in adult life and be encouraged to aim for vocations, whether single or married, within the Catholic Faith.

If our children are given the confidence now then they might make good leaders in Youth Ministry or other works for the Church later.

I want to encourage my daughter’s enthusiasm, not crush her interest and confidence and feelings of worthwhileness now. If by serving on the alter, that gives her encouragement in interest, drive, confidence and feeling a worthwhile member who can contribute at a young age now, then hopefully that will stand her in good stead to continue to feel the same later on so she can do good works for the Church in teenage and adult years.

I once asked a protestant colleague why there were so many youth at her Church and who were interested. She said they always had a practice of involving their children from avery early years to feel worthwhile contributers to their Church, given leadership roles and encouraged to be involved in their Church service.

If I worry that some girls might have this view about female priests, then I am doing my daughter an injustice, because there aren’t many opportunities for our children, let alone our daughters to be involved in our mass, to be involved in our Church, except when they are teenagers or do readings at a children’s or school mass. I am not waiting until my daughter is 15 and then say, you can do stuff with Youth Ministry now if you want, because her interest and feelings of worthwhileness might have gone by then.

In Australia, only 14% of Catholics attend regular mass. If female alter servers now might increase opportunity for leaders to be encouraged, that might increase this figure in the next generation, then I am all for it. Those leaders, whether they are girls or boys, will give the Church an increased opportunity in the next generation to lead more Faithful back into the Church, to breed more Faithful to stay and to lead more into vocations for the Church. In my mind, that overrides the worry that a few might think female priests are ok, and the bottom line is, we have the ability to explain to our daughters now why we only men become priests.

This is just my thoughts, and I know many won’t agree with them.

 

[weepixie71]

Female altar girls are a novelty, which, added to a list of others, inline me not to take the Novus Ordo Mass, as currently, commonly said, seriously.

I stopped going to Mass in the late '70’s, I think. I only knew the N. O. Mass. I was a teenager. I came back to the church in 2007, I think. I noticed even more novelties had been introduced, as I now understand them, like female altar servers.

I then found out about the Latin Mass. I like it far better. It’s ‘hardcore’! The N. O. Mass seems more Protestant. Like, I heard of ‘Charismatic Masses’, where people are very demonstrative, singing and clapping and ‘speaking in tongues’(?)

Now when I go to the N. O. Mass, to fulfil a Sunday obligation, the demonic part of my nature laughs cynically at just how bowdlerised it can be.

The part of me I perceive as angelic is grieved. Why do people now seem to be pleasing themselves rather than Christ The King in His temple?

I’ve read the arguments about validity and obedience. I have to say, as a ‘punter’ who sits at the back, the Latin Mass beats the N.O. in the appearance of holiness, if nothing else. I don’t think you can assume everyone attending is theologically advanced.

Beautiful chant, solemnity, everyone facing the tabernacle, a foreign, yet familiar language and the absence of distractions like female servers or your neighbours reading lessons all help to keep the ‘boys in the back’ from fidgeting, and thereby save some souls.

i couldnt agree more except for one thing. i take the novus ordo and what things they do to it seriously because although it is hard to believe because it is so different than any of our other rites, it is still the a mass with a true consecration. i find it hard to believe that worshiping like protestants, the very people who do not believe in the one true church, that this makes our Lord happy.

 

[Deacon_Ed]

ok lets say you are right. women were once likely to have been ordained deacons as a complete sacramental. why did they stop? why for centuries did the popes throughout most of its history speak like it never happened?

Why did it stop? That’s a good question. Most likely it stopped for several reasons. First, it’s clear that the Church in those days envisioned a permanent diaconate like we have today. Thus, the diaconate was not, necessarily, a step toward the priesthood. When the permanent diaconate was reduced to a transitional step, it was impossible for women to move forward and, thus, they were no longer ordained as deacons. There are, of course, other possibilities, but this seems most likely. Supporting this idea we see canonical prohibition (in the 1917 code) against a bishop ordaining anyone who was not going forward toward the priesthood. Thus, according to the 1917 code, there could be no general permanent diaconate. Those deacon who choose not to become priests were generally laicized (there were exceptions). Thus, when Vatican II ordered the restoration of the permanent diaconate (first ordered at the Council of Trent) it was necessary to change canon law.

is it possible that like today some disreputable bishops ordained female priestesses that some bishops back then pushed the envelope and ordained female deacons?

Not likely. It appears that having women as deacons dates back as far as the time of Paul (he writes of Phoebe whom he calls a “deacon” – not a deaconess). It may be that there were bishops who tried to ordain women as priest – something that Pope Gelasius condemned. However, from the very beginning it seems that women were not to be ordained to the priesthood so such action would be contrary to the Church while ordaining women to the diaconate was not.

is their canon law that you can find that ever supported that this was alright to be done?

This question is a problem. First, canon law as we know it today doesn’t arise until 1917. Prior to that we deal mostly with the Code of Justinian which doesn’t address the issue one way or another. Instead we have to focus on the disciplinary canons of the various councils (both local and general). These codes, like the councils themselves, were reactions to what was happening and, in general, were put in place to regulate that way in which the Church operated. As a result, there are conflicting canons that cover different places and times. So, no, there is nothing that says it’s all right and there are places where particular settings required prohibitions.

some people also say in the 12th century women were ordained priests. in the 12th and 13th century during a struggle for political power women were “vilified”. they were then demoted to deaconesses. the catholic church covered it up quickly till it was all but forgotten.

Nothing in my research supports this claim (although I’ve seen it in various feminist writings). By the 12th century it was pretty clear that our sacramental theology had developed to a sufficient point that this was no longer an issue. While the Eastern Church was just discontinuing the use of women as deacons, the Western Church had ceased any ordinations of women several centuries before.

Deacon Ed

 

[tulsacubfan]

I will admit I have not read the entire thread, and I do not know the gender of a lot of the posters, but…

The Bishop of each diocese is permitted to determine if females may serve on the altar in His diocese. I feel blessed that the Bishop in my diocese allows women to serve. We have many women and young girls who are altar servers, Eucharistic Ministers, and lectors. We have many women who started serving as young girls and are very active in the Church (and in community outreach programs through the parish). I find it interesting the number of women who do not want to serve and do not think women should serve. I don’t think women should be priests (I liked the comparison made by Deacon Ed - women can’t be fathers, men can’t be mothers, women can’t be priests), but I think it is perfectly acceptable for women to serve the church and God in other ways during the Mass. There is nothing I enjoy more than when I am serving as a Eucharistic Minister and there is a moment when it is me, the person receiving the Eucharistic, and Christ. What a special moment!

 

[weepixie71]

As a mother who has both a boy and a girl and who both served as alter servers last year, I have no problem with girls serving. My son pulled out, but his sister didn’t. She wants to be seen as a worthwhile member of the Church, and she was able to participate in some way for a short period. I think linking girls serving with female priest ideas is a bit of a stretch. And with the shortage of nuns, if allowing girls to be servers might actually encourage some girls to head towards this vocation, I am all for it.

You have a small group of dissenters that want female priests, but you also have groups of dissenters that want the Church to change it’s mind about Contraception, homosexuality, abortion etc. We’ve always had some dissenters pushing certain reforms.

I don’t buy the argument about the worry it will promote more people to push for female priests. What I do see is an opportunity for our daughters, if they choose, to have an opportunity to be more involved in our Church, and hopefully by feeling they are contributing and being involved, they will stick with the Faith in adult life and be encouraged to aim for vocations, whether single or married, within the Catholic Faith.

If our children are given the confidence now then they might make good leaders in Youth Ministry or other works for the Church later.

I want to encourage my daughter’s enthusiasm, not crush her interest and confidence and feelings of worthwhileness now. If by serving on the alter, that gives her encouragement in interest, drive, confidence and feeling a worthwhile member who can contribute at a young age now, then hopefully that will stand her in good stead to continue to feel the same later on so she can do good works for the Church in teenage and adult years.

I once asked a protestant colleague why there were so many youth at her Church and who were interested. She said they always had a practice of involving their children from avery early years to feel worthwhile contributers to their Church, given leadership roles and encouraged to be involved in their Church service.

If I worry that some girls might have this view about female priests, then I am doing my daughter an injustice, because there aren’t many opportunities for our children, let alone our daughters to be involved in our mass, to be involved in our Church, except when they are teenagers or do readings at a children’s or school mass. I am not waiting until my daughter is 15 and then say, you can do stuff with Youth Ministry now if you want, because her interest and feelings of worthwhileness might have gone by then.

In Australia, only 14% of Catholics attend regular mass. If female alter servers now might increase opportunity for leaders to be encouraged, that might increase this figure in the next generation, then I am all for it. Those leaders, whether they are girls or boys, will give the Church an increased opportunity in the next generation to lead more Faithful back into the Church, to breed more Faithful to stay and to lead more into vocations for the Church. In my mind, that overrides the worry that a few might think female priests are ok, and the bottom line is, we have the ability to explain to our daughters now why we only men become priests.

This is just my thoughts, and I know many won’t agree with them.

my daughter loves the mass. ive taught my daughter how blessed she is to be a witness to the consecration. and how we please the Lord by attending mass by covering our heads. this is something a man can not do. it is an outward sign to show our humility to Christ.
there are other ways to encourage your daughter to become a nun if she shows the interest. get her books on saintly nuns, have her talk with some of the nuns about the vocation at a convent, let her do volunteer work with them. there are also camps she can attend. my daughter goes to one in ohio. it is all ran by nuns when the girls are there. and they talk to girls about being a nun.
i worry that people want to be apart of the mass so much that they can lose sight of the importance of witnessing.

 

[savienu]

As a mother who has both a boy and a girl and who both served as alter servers last year, I have no problem with girls serving. My son pulled out, but his sister didn’t. She wants to be seen as a worthwhile member of the Church, and she was able to participate in some way for a short period. I think linking girls serving with female priest ideas is a bit of a stretch. And with the shortage of nuns, if allowing girls to be servers might actually encourage some girls to head towards this vocation, I am all for it.

You have a small group of dissenters that want female priests, but you also have groups of dissenters that want the Church to change it’s mind about Contraception, homosexuality, abortion etc. We’ve always had some dissenters pushing certain reforms.

I don’t buy the argument about the worry it will promote more people to push for female priests. What I do see is an opportunity for our daughters, if they choose, to have an opportunity to be more involved in our Church, and hopefully by feeling they are contributing and being involved, they will stick with the Faith in adult life and be encouraged to aim for vocations, whether single or married, within the Catholic Faith.

If our children are given the confidence now then they might make good leaders in Youth Ministry or other works for the Church later.

I want to encourage my daughter’s enthusiasm, not crush her interest and confidence and feelings of worthwhileness now. If by serving on the alter, that gives her encouragement in interest, drive, confidence and feeling a worthwhile member who can contribute at a young age now, then hopefully that will stand her in good stead to continue to feel the same later on so she can do good works for the Church in teenage and adult years.

I once asked a protestant colleague why there were so many youth at her Church and who were interested. She said they always had a practice of involving their children from avery early years to feel worthwhile contributers to their Church, given leadership roles and encouraged to be involved in their Church service.

If I worry that some girls might have this view about female priests, then I am doing my daughter an injustice, because there aren’t many opportunities for our children, let alone our daughters to be involved in our mass, to be involved in our Church, except when they are teenagers or do readings at a children’s or school mass. I am not waiting until my daughter is 15 and then say, you can do stuff with Youth Ministry now if you want, because her interest and feelings of worthwhileness might have gone by then.

In Australia, only 14% of Catholics attend regular mass. If female alter servers now might increase opportunity for leaders to be encouraged, that might increase this figure in the next generation, then I am all for it. Those leaders, whether they are girls or boys, will give the Church an increased opportunity in the next generation to lead more Faithful back into the Church, to breed more Faithful to stay and to lead more into vocations for the Church. In my mind, that overrides the worry that a few might think female priests are ok, and the bottom line is, we have the ability to explain to our daughters now why we only men become priests.

This is just my thoughts, and I know many won’t agree with them.

I guess I’m just wondering why you feel the way for her to serve the church is to be an altar server? Are there not other ways to do this? Women have served the Church for 2000 years, and for 1990 years they were not allowed to serve at the altar. This is a novelty, licit or not, and yet, somehow, we have managed to have many women of faith (there are more female canonized saints than men, I’ve been told), without them serving the Priest in a traditionally male capacity.

 

[Extempore]

Out of curiosity, are those who advocate for female servers more inclined to do so only within the context of the Novus Ordo or both forms equally?

Its obviously more of a hypothetical, since I know of no TLM parishes that would allow for such a thing…

 

[Just_Lurking]

I forgot the question about canon law.

Canon 15 from the Council of Chalcedon (see here) says:

No woman under forty years of age is to be ordained a deacon, and then only after close scrutiny. If after receiving ordination and spending some time in the ministry she despises God’s grace and gets married, such a person is to be anathematised along with her spouse.

 

[eichenb2]

Out of curiosity, are those who advocate for female servers more inclined to do so only within the context of the Novus Ordo or both forms equally?

Its obviously more of a hypothetical, since I know of no TLM parishes that would allow for such a thing…

Women should not be servers, in any capacity. Give the job back to the altar boys! Why has the altar girl thing persisted???

 

[Layman]

To: Kyria:

I’m not worried at all about women’s numbers in our religion. Women are naturally drawn to religion, and to its dark mirror, occultism e.g. tarot, horoscopes, spiritualism, psychics etc.

Women can bear children, a very sobering ordeal, and a deep joy. The have wider and deeper emotions and they delight in being helpful, wanted and ‘belonging’.

So a priest will never want for female helpers.

What has been remarked on by ‘Trads’ is how much more involved men are in the Old Rite, and a good deal less so in the New. See for yourself the proportion of EMCs(?), servers and lectors in the N. O. rite who are women, and who are men.

I have seen this myself. An ancient church in London near me had a changeover of pastor. The new one isn’t as keen on the old rite. The church was also being repaired, so it’s in a state. The Latin Mass there seemed to be in some doubt, if only because of the disruption.

The last Latin Mass I went to there, on a First Friday, in the evening, had only about eight souls, if that. And seven of them were men. In retrospect, I was proud to be one of them.

Regardless of what rite you do, women will come. They have joy in being there, in helping to keep the Church is good order etc.

Getting the men in is another thing. The N.O. Mass with the abuses and alterations that have crept in, seems effeminate to me. It’s a short step from the N. O. Mass to a disorderly Charismatic-type Mass, and from there to something more pagan: singing, dancing, clapping, a great welling up of all sorts of emotions, a feast (Mass as a meal) and homage paid to the Earth (‘eco issues’) and vague amity (‘social justice’).

Back to Babylon, in other words!

 

[weepixie71]

Out of curiosity, are those who advocate for female servers more inclined to do so only within the context of the Novus Ordo or both forms equally?

Its obviously more of a hypothetical, since I know of no TLM parishes that would allow for such a thing…

the tlm is the mass before vatican II and traditionalists like to keep it as much like pre vatican II as possible. we dont like change. change makes us twitch.:frighten:

 

[kyria]

I guess I’m just wondering why you feel the way for her to serve the church is to be an altar server? .

Because it is something she was able to do now while she is young and still interested.