What Does the Pope Say About Female Servers?

[weepixie71]

Nothing at all stopping boys from alter serving. She wasn’t taking any boys position. There didn’t appear to be enough boys putting up their hands, so what is wrong if she did?

If you feel the way to go with your daughter is the TLM and wearing lace on your heads go for it, I like the type of mass we attend and I am in no way raising my daughter that she needs to wear lace on her head as a way of showing humility and that is the best way for her to serve Christ.

if you do not teach your children the act of humility then in no way can they imitate Christ. God humbled Himself when He became. He humbled Himself when he preached, He humbled Himself when he washed His apostles feet. He humbled Himself in front of pontius piolot. the biggest act ever in history of all mankind Jesus humbled Himself with the way He was crucified.

Jesus also taught the importance of humility by saying, “unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 18:3 & 4).

also that THING i wear on my head! is so much more than an act of humility and it is rude to not respect my traditions as i am trying to respect yours

 

[jw9495]

Originally Posted by kyria View Post
Nothing at all stopping boys from alter serving. She wasn’t taking any boys position. There didn’t appear to be enough boys putting up their hands, so what is wrong if she did?

If you feel the way to go with your daughter is the TLM and wearing lace on your heads go for it, I like the type of mass we attend and I am in no way raising my daughter that she needs to wear lace on her head as a way of showing humility and that is the best way for her to serve Christ.

if you do not teach your children the act of humility then in no way can they imitate Christ. God humbled Himself when He became. He humbled Himself when he preached, He humbled Himself when he washed His apostles feet. He humbled Himself in front of pontius piolot. the biggest act ever in history of all mankind Jesus humbled Himself with the way He was crucified.

Jesus also taught the importance of humility by saying, “unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 18:3 & 4).

also that THING i wear on my head! is so much more than an act of humility and it is rude to not respect my traditions as i am trying to respect yours

kyria never called the lace on your head a “THING”. You seem to be very angry. She simply stated that she was not teaching her daughter that particular tradition. That does not mean she is not teaching her daughter humility. Also the lace on your head is a lower case t tradition as well as the altar boys/girls. I have no problem with being respectful of your traditions.

 

[weepixie71]

The Pope has ALLOWED it, after widespread abuses. he hasn’t mandated it. I’m wondering if HE has female altar servers. The current Pope is reforming a lot of things; I wouldn’t be surprised if at some point in the future girls are no longer allowed to serve at the altar.

we can only pray . i would like to see lay people removed from the sanctuary altogether since the little boys and girls cant seem to get along. well if he gets to do this then she should…
the tridentine does not have these problems because laity is made useful in a lot of ways just not in the Holy Mass. my mother participates by arranging the flowers for the altars and my father participates by mopping the floors and polishing the pews.
mr cooper from the front row does not say the readings. mrs jones and her family doesnt bring the bread and wine up to the alter in the middle of the mass. several of the altar boys are seminarians and young men who are seriously considering being priests.
as a matter of fact the tridentine mass is so different from that of the novus ordo that if vatican II is not careful with its changes the only things we will have in common are dogma.

 

[jw9495]

The Pope has ALLOWED it, after widespread abuses. he hasn’t mandated it. I’m wondering if HE has female altar servers. The current Pope is reforming a lot of things; I wouldn’t be surprised if at some point in the future girls are no longer allowed to serve at the altar.

Well good luck with that thought. I have seen pictures of our current Pope receiving gifts from families. So to say that he will stop girls from coming up to the altar is far from what he is already allowing.

 

[savienu]

Well good luck with that thought. I have seen pictures of our current Pope receiving gifts from families. So to say that he will stop girls from coming up to the altar is far from what he is already allowing.

Does he have FEMALE ALTAR SERVERS? There is a bit of a difference between delivering the gifts (those who deliver do not walk onto the altar, the Priest/Bishop meets them at the front aisle), and serving at the altar in the capacity of what used to be an acolyte.

 

[Layman]

Errrr… ‘receiving gifts from families’ is rather different to girls serving at the altar.

Perhaps in the end statistics will dictate the outcome.** If post-Vat. II novelties are putting off men becoming priests and churches are closing, something drastic will have to be done. And more novelty i.e. female priests is not the answer. **

 

[IridescentAngel]

I am sorry your husband walked out on you. My heart goes out to you and I think you are an amazing woman for raising your child on your own. However, I disagree with you that women were set aside in the Church, especially if you mean because they couldn’t be servers. There are roles for men in the church and there are roles for women. It has only been a little over a decade that women have been allowed to serve at the older. St. Terese the Little Flower did not serve at the altar; St. Maria Goretti did not serve at the altar. Our mothers did not serve at the altar. Are we really to believe that these women were set aside because they couldn’t serve the Priest at the altar? Women are the heart of the Church!

Thank you for your kind words.

 

[BayernAnhaenger]

Such as what? People occasionally make this comment but fail to back it up with suggestions. So far all I’ve heard is sitting in the pew with lace on one’s head. What parts of the mass give a girl an opportunity to serve Christ? please don’t come back with she can help me bake cookies for the Church stall.

What opportunities are there now to asist her to be a leader later on? because she is a leader, and women can lead others as they follow Christ. Youth Ministry for example is not just for boys and so I want her to feel like she can contribute and serve now, so that later on she might feel encouraged to do something with her leadership skills later on. So that she is interested and willing to serve the Church in another capacity when she is older.

One of the boys had no issue about serving with her and her with him. Being a girl didn’t put boys off. Her brother pulled out but at least she kept going and finished her year.

If we attended a TLM then she wouldn’t have served. But the mass we attend allows it and I am glad it gave her an opportunity now to prepare her for later on.

You can raise her to be a great homemaker. And I don’t mean that derogatorily.

The Mass is not the ONLY PLACE IN THE WORLD where people serve. If it would get rid of this foolish notion that I have to be PHYSICALLY DOING SOMETHING, I would propose to ban laymen altogether from the sanctuary, and just let it be the realm of the priest, and ordained people (like deacons and seminarians).

A group of graduates from Notre Dame, who all seem to be in their late-20s (?) have a wonderful blog:
church-ladies.blogspot.com/
The Pious Sodality of the Church Ladies.

In this blog they give advice on how to learn things such as mending cassocks, throw wonderful Catholic parties (on pertinent saint days), in addition to how to foster a Catholic home. That is traditionally the place of the woman. Now, this may offend “modern sensibilities”, but it’s true. The Church needs women who are prepared to lead their households in the Faith. Plus, lace is sweet. You could teach your daughter to make lace. I, as a guy, think it’s pretty cool. If she gets good enough, she could make lace for the altar, or a priest - which is a wonderful gift! Were I a priest, and I received some form of homemade lace, I would include the giver and her family in my prayers for as long as I could remember.

With all that said, i have to ask. For what did you prepare her? She is unlikely to serve again in the future, and she can never become a priest. It instills a false hope, I think.

Also, serving at Mass is not the only way to render one’s service to the Church. Devout prayers offered are necessary. The cleaning of the church linens is necessary. Repairs made to altar cloths, priest’s clothing, liturgical cloths, etc, etc are all necessary. Church decoration. Church cleaning. All of this can be done by women. Sure, she may not be standing at the altar with the priest, but there’s really no precedent for her to do so, so why instill in her the false sense that she can be up there? In addition, no lay person has a right to be in the sanctuary.

I know that is long winded, but I hope you find my response useful, and the blog useful. I check it nearly everyday (and I’m a 21 year old guy!).

Also, I hope your attitude softens towards the EF. It is a wonderful Mass, and you should at least give it a fair shake. If you can, attend one with an open mind. Don’t bring a missal, and don’t try to follow along in the missal if the church provides one. Just go, follow the priest’s actions at the altar, and just take in the surroundings.

God bless.

 

[weepixie71]

Men have always offered sacrifices on the altar, the ‘high place’. Women trying to wangle and force their way up there is an impertinence.

A priestess has historically been a very different creature. Women menstruate. They have serious mood swings. I’d guess the Jews saw what happened in neighbouring cultures that had priestesses, and forbade it.

Whereas with men, what you see is largely what you get. One mood, all the time. He goes in, does the job, goes home, and forgets about it. He won’t be simmering for days about what such-and-such a one said or did.

Men also are direct. Is there an enemy at the gate? Destroy it! Is there something wrong? Fix it, now! Simple, direct, no fuss, have a laugh afterwards and take your ease.

Such a creature is ideal in the serious technical operation of performing a ritual to invoke the presence of The King Of Kings and Lord of Hosts.

Primitive cultures know this. Men and women have clearly defined ritual roles. They know what works, because appeasing their gods (demons, archangels, fairies, tribal thought-forms or whatever) is vital to their survival. If they don’t, the crops fail.

The first principle of engineering is: if it works, leave it alone. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.

Because our religion, like our culture, has become heavily intellectualised, we can put forward perverse notions and entertain them, like females in the Holy Of Holies. There’s also the phenomenon of ‘buggin’s turn’: “Aw, let her have a go, it’s not fairrrrrr”.

I was surprised to read recently that our Pope, as cardinal Ratzinger, was very keen on the second Vatican council and it’s likely fruits. Now, what do you suppose has happened to cause him to become such a notable conservative in recent years, hmmm?

PS: Just thought of this one: Which saint, archangel or other Heavenly being told Man to make such sweeping changes to the main ritual of our religion?

We argue over what the Popes meant and what the bishops can or can’t do, but did Jesus or Mary appear to anyone and say “Make these changes”, like Fatima and Lourdes?

Did anyone run these changes by The Boss and get definite clearance before going ahead? Seems to me it’s the sort of big change that should have come from a revelation, and nothing less.

now im a young whipper snapper compared to the vat II but my mother told me that is was to encourage protestants to come to the catholic church. the tridentine mass was too different and intimidating to protestants. they didnt trust that God would show them the true beauty of the tridentine mass.
what i find funny is that a lot of the things that protestants complain about in the OM… kneeling to bread, praying to saints, only men in the sanctuary, etc… is disappearing in their mass. and yet they say these decisions are not protestant based? how could they not be if for the purpose of that very mass was indeed created for the conversion of protestants.
some like to say that it was also because priests were abusing the tridentine mass by not saying it properly. this in my opinion is hogwash. it is the bishops job to discipline the priests if they were indeed abusing the mass and the parishioners job to let the bishops know it was going on.

 

[weepixie71]

Of course the Pope is guided by the Holy Spirit. But, honestly, what do you really think Jesus would say? Do you think he would reject a woman or girl who wants to serve Him? He was very accepting of women. It’s the Church that had (and has) issue with it.

Forgive me if I’m out of line. But I’m a devout Catholic who has been a Catholic all my life. My husband walked out on me and our infant baby 11 1/2 years ago, and I haven’t dated or looked at another man since. From that time, I had to totally take care of myself and my child with help from no one. I was very successful, and I am very blessed. But after what I’ve done as a woman, I don’t have much tolerance for for women being “set aside” anywhere.

see!!! how terribly sad for this woman. i would hate to attend a mass that because solely of my gender i felt looked down upon.

Inaestimabile Donum 3, April 1980.

  10.     The faithful, whether religious or lay, who are authorized as Extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist can distribute Communion only when there is no priest, deacon or acolyte, when the priest is impeded by illness or advanced age, or when the number of the faithful going to communion is so large as to make the celebration of Mass excessively long. (20.)
  Accordingly, a reprehensible attitude is shown by those priests who, though present at the celebration, refrain from distributing Communion and leave this task to the laity.
        (20) from the Sacred Congregation for the Discipline of the Sacraments, , Instruction Immensae Caritatis, 1, 

  9.     Eucharistic Communion. Communion is a gift of the Lord, given to the faithful through the minister appointed for this purpose. It is not permitted that the faithful should themselves pick up the consecrated bread and the sacred chalice, still less that they should hand them from one to another.

it was not supposed to be a free for all for laity in the first place to participate. in the latin mass no one is up at the altar during mass but the priest and altar boy. and the fact that it is an altar boy and not an altar girl does not phase us in the least because we have such strong hopes that he will want to be a good holy priest. i have never seen a lay person, and let me tell you we have some very elderly in pretty bad shape priests that could use the help, reading scripture, or giving communion, etc. the laity remain seated in the pews. men and women alike.

 

[Layman]

I attended a Franciscan Mass some months ago where the priest sat down and let the EMCs distribute all the Communion.

Hee hee, like he was tired and it was hard work!

[Yes, I know that wasn’t his rationale, but that’s the image that came to mind.]

**Aha, I have had a revelation. Is it down to this?:

If you think of the Mass as a sacred rite of sacrifice and are afraid of God’s wrath and judgement, you go for the TLM.

If you think of Jesus mainly as a pal and the Mass mainly as a re-enactment of the Last Supper and a Communal meal, then the Novus Ordo, as currently performed, seems jolly good.**

If the latter is true is doesn’t really matter what novelties you introduce because Jesus loves you, He won’t mind and it’s a celebration, isn’t it?

PS: I’m not being sarcastic here, just trying to get at motives.

 

[jw9495]

I attended a Franciscan Mass some months ago where the priest sat down and let the EMCs distribute all the Communion.

Hee hee, like he was tired and it was hard work!

[Yes, I know that wasn’t his rationale, but that’s the image that came to mind.]

**Aha, I have had a revelation. Is it down to this?:

If you think of the Mass as a sacred rite of sacrifice and are afraid of God’s wrath and judgement, you go for the TLM.

If you think of Jesus mainly as a pal and the Mass mainly as a re-enactment of the Last Supper and a Communal meal, then the Novus Ordo, as currently performed, seems jolly good.**

If the latter is true is doesn’t really matter what novelties you introduce because Jesus loves you, He won’t mind and it’s a celebration, isn’t it?

PS: I’m not being sarcastic here, just trying to get at motives.

Just because people attend the Novus Ordo mass instead of the TLM does in no way mean that they believe or see Jesus Christ our savior as our pal! And as far as mass in Latin… well priest can say mass in Latin any time. But to go to a mass in Latin because you feel it is the only true way well read up on your history.

Although our Lord could speak all languages he spoke the Aramaic language so that the Jews could understand him.
When the apostles dispersed after the siege of Jerusalem by the Romans, in the year 70 A.D., they had to adopt the local languages in order to be able to preach. (They were imitating Jesus so they could take the word of God to others so they could understand.)
In the Roman empire, the Greek language was the universal vehicle for literature, for worldly correspondence, and for commercial affairs. For that reason, the early Church spoke Greek and read the sacred books in that language as well. Then, as time passed, Greek lost its influence in the West and Latin progressively took its place.

As it seems to me Jesus spoke the language of the people he was teaching. So did the early Popes. Now our priests speak the language of the people to bring the word of God to them so we can understand. The Latin mass may be beautiful, but in no way does Latin make you a better Catholic.
:tsktsk:

I find that many Catholics are confused when it comes to tradition and what exactly Sacred Tradition means. It can be a difficult concept to grasp. When we as Catholics speak of or refer to Tradition or Sacred Tradition we are talking about a specific body of unchanging divine revelation. This would be different from traditions that include customs, disciplines, or practices that possibly change from time to time or place to place. i.e. , to pray facing a certain way or fast on certain days, or altar girls. Sacred Tradition is not simply “doing it the way we’ve always done it”. Check out your CCC.

 

[Layman]

“The Latin mass may be beautiful, but in no way does Latin make you a better Catholic.”

Sure it does. We’re in the Roman Catholic Church, after all. [grin].

More seriously, using a dead, foreign language means there will be no slang words associated with the ritual and prayers; English changes meaning, Latin does not.

I used to be an ‘armchair occultist’; I read a lot of dubious books. I noted that occultists were admonished not to change their rituals, otherwise they might be attacked by demons, or the thing just wouldn’t work. They’d only make changes based on experience.

I suppose we’re safe with our Mass, as Jesus is kind, **but I have the sense that it’s up to us to make the running with Him. Jesus doesn’t need us, especially, but we surely need Him. **

So the most pious, reverent and humble display you can put on directed towards him, the better, in my opinion.

I think the Pope made reference to the ‘closed circle’ of the priest and the congregation facing each other in the N. O. mass, instead of both facing east and towards the tabernacle.

I have the idea that theologians and not living saints have made the Mass as it is now performed. I’ve read the modern mass is nothing like what was intended by the bishops who were actually at Vatican II.

 

[weepixie71]

I attended a Franciscan Mass some months ago where the priest sat down and let the EMCs distribute all the Communion.

Hee hee, like he was tired and it was hard work!

[Yes, I know that wasn’t his rationale, but that’s the image that came to mind.]

**Aha, I have had a revelation. Is it down to this?:

If you think of the Mass as a sacred rite of sacrifice and are afraid of God’s wrath and judgement, you go for the TLM.

If you think of Jesus mainly as a pal and the Mass mainly as a re-enactment of the Last Supper and a Communal meal, then the Novus Ordo, as currently performed, seems jolly good.**

If the latter is true is doesn’t really matter what novelties you introduce because Jesus loves you, He won’t mind and it’s a celebration, isn’t it?

PS: I’m not being sarcastic here, just trying to get at motives.

i think for most its just easier for them to stay where they are at. not all OM mass but a lot of them feel the only thing asked of them is to go to confession once a yr,(though they make this optional), church on sunday and holy days of obligation (if it doesnt effect there work), and say the rosary.
the EM is work work work. you have to make sure your whole family is dressed appropriately, they are usually far away and early in the morning, 3hr fasts, no meat every friday, confession at least once a month, they probably feel they need to learn latin but they dont, missals have latin on one side and english on the other. OM priests are far from encourageable. i heard a priest tell a member of his parish that the EM was just a long drawn out mass that goes on forever.

 

[savienu]

Just because people attend the Novus Ordo mass instead of the TLM does in no way mean that they believe or see Jesus Christ our savior as our pal! And as far as mass in Latin… well priest can say mass in Latin any time. But to go to a mass in Latin because you feel it is the only true way well read up on your history.

Although our Lord could speak all languages he spoke the Aramaic language so that the Jews could understand him.
When the apostles dispersed after the siege of Jerusalem by the Romans, in the year 70 A.D., they had to adopt the local languages in order to be able to preach. (They were imitating Jesus so they could take the word of God to others so they could understand.)
In the Roman empire, the Greek language was the universal vehicle for literature, for worldly correspondence, and for commercial affairs. For that reason, the early Church spoke Greek and read the sacred books in that language as well. Then, as time passed, Greek lost its influence in the West and Latin progressively took its place.

As it seems to me Jesus spoke the language of the people he was teaching. So did the early Popes. Now our priests speak the language of the people to bring the word of God to them so we can understand. The Latin mass may be beautiful, but in no way does Latin make you a better Catholic.
:tsktsk:

I find that many Catholics are confused when it comes to tradition and what exactly Sacred Tradition means. It can be a difficult concept to grasp. When we as Catholics speak of or refer to Tradition or Sacred Tradition we are talking about a specific body of unchanging divine revelation. This would be different from traditions that include customs, disciplines, or practices that possibly change from time to time or place to place. i.e. , to pray facing a certain way or fast on certain days, or altar girls. Sacred Tradition is not simply “doing it the way we’ve always done it”. Check out your CCC.

What you miss about this though is the Mass being in Latin made it so that EVERYONE could understand, no matter what language they spoke. I don’t speak Japanese- but if I found a Catholic Church in Japan, I could understand, because it was Latin. Not so, anymore.

 

[Layman]

Seconded. A church near me has Masses in Tamil. When I caught the tail-end of one once, I hadn’t a clue what was going on.

It’s like the Tower of Babel, in a way. And, to use a modern phrase, not very ‘inclusive’ at all.

Just found this. Useful, and a little perturbing, as I’m not sure I haven’t seen some of these things done:

ourladyswarriors.org/articles/badliturgy.htm

 

[weepixie71]

Such as what? People occasionally make this comment but fail to back it up with suggestions. So far all I’ve heard is sitting in the pew with lace on one’s head. What parts of the mass give a girl an opportunity to serve Christ? please don’t come back with she can help me bake cookies for the Church stall.

What opportunities are there now to asist her to be a leader later on? because she is a leader, and women can lead others as they follow Christ. Youth Ministry for example is not just for boys and so I want her to feel like she can contribute and serve now, so that later on she might feel encouraged to do something with her leadership skills later on. So that she is interested and willing to serve the Church in another capacity when she is older.

One of the boys had no issue about serving with her and her with him. Being a girl didn’t put boys off. Her brother pulled out but at least she kept going and finished her year.

If we attended a TLM then she wouldn’t have served. But the mass we attend allows it and I am glad it gave her an opportunity now to prepare her for later on.

mass is not a feminist boot camp… i am appalled at your hateful views towards woman in the catholic church. there are so many other things she can do.
start a program she is passionate about, like a childrens rosary, have her lead it and help her guide it.
help decorate and clean church
repair vestments, cassocks, and albs
offer to wash altar clothes
heck put her in girl scouts if you want her to learn leadership skills
BUT DO NOT USE A SACRED MASS FOR YOUR PERSONAL AGENDA

 

[rfpapcun]

It seems to me that it’s the introduction of altar girls which is really “culturally conditioned”. Our feminist culture demanded that the Church do this, and it crumbled. It gave in to the world.

Opponents of altar girls are opposing the modern culture and the spirit of the world. Their opposition isn’t based on cultural demands, but a conviction that altar girls are being used as a backdoor route to female “ordination”. The more women crowding the sanctuary, the less practical difference female ordination makes.

Permitting the use of altar girls was a gravely imprudent decision. The Church will come to regret it, but it will be too late by the time it’s reversed. The seeds of dissent have been firmly sewn.

Yes, yes! Dauphin is absolutely correct. These novelties always begin as gross abuses, then gain a following, then a group of bishops puts on pressure, then approval from Rome as an experiment, and then permanent approval.

Those of you who are Church positivists – i.e., whatever the Pope does has to be right – need a different perspective. The legality of a practice says nothing about its merits or demerits.

 

[EvelynEVF]

I’ll just note that I go to a very reverent Novus Ordo Mass, where the priest goes by the book. The music isn’t always ideal, but there is lots of chanting. Those of you who believe that the EF is the only reverent form out there just haven’t found a good NO parish yet. I will admit that in all my travels, I’ve seen an awful lot of illicit stuff in the Novus Ordo, but really transcendent NO Masses do happen, even with altar girls up there!

 

[weepixie71]

Seconded. A church near me has Masses in Tamil. When I caught the tail-end of one once, I hadn’t a clue what was going on.

It’s like the Tower of Babel, in a way. And, to use a modern phrase, not very ‘inclusive’ at all.

Just found this. Useful, and a little perturbing, as I’m not sure I haven’t seen some of these things done:

ourladyswarriors.org/articles/badliturgy.htm

the fact that you could not recognize a mass that was used for 1500yrs in our Catholic church and in less than 60yrs you cant recognize it, does that not send up ANY red flags?