What Does the Pope Say About Female Servers?

[Deacon_Ed]

Are Catholic pastors the same thing as priests?
The reason I ask is that I was listening to Teresa Tomeo on the radio and she referred to her pastor as “she”.
I know the Catholic church does not approve of female priests,but are there female pastors then?
I always thought of pastors and priests as equal.
Or Maybe Teresa Tomeo isn’t a Catholic. Her show is on EWTN.

According to canon law the title “pastor” can only be given to a priest (which, of course, includes bishops). It may be that she is in a priestless parish and has an “administrator” who may be a woman, but that person is not and cannot be a “pastor.”

Deacon Ed

 

[EvelynEVF]

Organs give a feeling of reverence. NO guitar can do that.

A really good classical guitar played by a really talented guitarist who knows how to pick instead of strum? Yes, that can be extraordinarily reverent and create that atmosphere. I think that pretty well goes for any instrument–a really excellent player can do it. The problem with guitars is that they are easy to pick up and learn, and I don’t meet many people who really study them with the depth expected by, say, a violinist. With some instruments, you’re either good or bad, but with the guitar, there is a wide range in between.

We have both in our congregation, and there is a huge difference.

 

[mystified]

One of the posters here is a guitarist. He/she suggests that the organ is really the best for litugical services.
Not in our parish. No matter what the music, it is done so slowly that it is sometime hard to keep one’s place in the song, or even to stay awake. Alelu-zzzzzzzzz.-ya.

 

[weepixie71]

Somebody in the wider Forum once asked me why I am a lapsed Catholic who still goes to Mass (where my grand-daughter serves as an altar girl ) but declines communion and confession. The fact that you are even having this mysogenist debate when the world (which God so loves) is stricken by war, violence, disease, hunger, ignorance and hatreds, confirms me in my self-impose exile .

because God punishes us through war, violence, disease, hunger, ignorance, and hatred. and the best way to make it stop is through prayer and worship. mass is a huge part of worship and if we do things the way we want instead of the way He wants, its offensive to him. Jesus told us how he wants the mass done already.Jesus had female followers… but when he preached it was always Him and His apostles. when he was at the last supper He didnt invite His mother, or any other female followers, just His apostles because they were going to be future priests and bishops. Who would have complained as special as Mary was if she were to be made a bishop or priest? who would not have listened to the Saviors mother? but He didnt make her one. we have to respect the way Jesus wants things done.

 

[EvelynEVF]

I hear a lot of frustration, from some of the posters, because they feel that the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is being toyed with, particularly in the Novus Ordo. I just want to say that I hear you!

I have been to some screwy Masses, and it just drives me out of my mind. The last time I traveled, a parish that had been quite orthodox a few months ago has taken down its crucifix, changed hymnals, and added a rock band. The priest did not vest properly, and his “stole” was a patchwork of Frosty the Snowman, the nutcracker, bears with angel wings, and a gingerbread man. He changed many words in the liturgy to make himself one of us.

Had I the nerve, I would have begged him to please stay in persona Christi, because we need him there!

I realize how blessed I am to be at an NO parish where there is a great deal of reverence, depending on which Mass. I tell my priest and deacon how grateful I am for what they do. The new priest is bringing back the sanctus bells for daily Mass (never left on the weekend!), he chants, etc etc.

I have seen both sides, and I hear your sorrow, frustration, and anger. I have felt the same way, but my feelings are tempered with the knowledge that when I get back home, everything will be fine. I hope that you can find a reasonably convenient place to worship the way you heart longs to.

Just please, please don’t paint the rest of us with such a broad brush. Many of the things you’ve listed are not abuses. If they really keep you from worshiping and cause you to sin in bitterness, and you can’t be the agent of change yourself, find another parish. I know that you shouldn’t have to, but we do what we have to do.

 

[weepixie71]

Not Girl Scouts! My wife is ending her and our daughters’ affiliation there due to ties with Planned Parenthood. Boy Scouts offers Venture Patrols which can be coed or not, for teens aged 14 and up.
I am told Girl Scouts has become quite hostile to traditional feminine roles and virtues, and the religious element is gone or going. (Some places have eliminated God from the oath.)

i said that in an a way that i should not have said… it is an organization known for teaching leadership skills… it was a point i admittedly poorly made. unfortunately though in a lot of catholic schools they do still use the program

 

[Joannm]

I agree with everything you said here! I love the cries of “I’m not a feminist, but the patriarchal society of 1993 (since women weren’t granted even ANY permission to serve until after then) was suppressing women!!” Forgive the sarcasm, but c’mon, give me a break! I wonder if St. Therese the Little Flower felt like she wasn’t being honored as a woman because she couldn’t serve the Priest at the altar.

Actually, as written in her diary, Therese would have liked to be a priest.

“To be betrothed to You, Jesus, to be a Carmelite, to become, through my union with You, a mother of souls — surely that ought to be enough for anybody? But somehow, not for me. I seem to have so many other vocations as well! I feel as if I were called to be a fighter, a priest, an apostle, a doctor, a martyr. . . I want to be a priest.”

 

[weepixie71]

I hear a lot of frustration, from some of the posters, because they feel that the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is being toyed with, particularly in the Novus Ordo. I just want to say that I hear you!

I have been to some screwy Masses, and it just drives me out of my mind. The last time I traveled, a parish that had been quite orthodox a few months ago has taken down its crucifix, changed hymnals, and added a rock band. The priest did not vest properly, and his “stole” was a patchwork of Frosty the Snowman, the nutcracker, bears with angel wings, and a gingerbread man. He changed many words in the liturgy to make himself one of us.

Had I the nerve, I would have begged him to please stay in persona Christi, because we need him there!

I realize how blessed I am to be at an NO parish where there is a great deal of reverence, depending on which Mass. I tell my priest and deacon how grateful I am for what they do. The new priest is bringing back the sanctus bells for daily Mass (never left on the weekend!), he chants, etc etc.

I have seen both sides, and I hear your sorrow, frustration, and anger. I have felt the same way, but my feelings are tempered with the knowledge that when I get back home, everything will be fine. I hope that you can find a reasonably convenient place to worship the way you heart longs to.

Just please, please don’t paint the rest of us with such a broad brush. Many of the things you’ve listed are not abuses. If they really keep you from worshiping and cause you to sin in bitterness, and you can’t be the agent of change yourself, find another parish. I know that you shouldn’t have to, but we do what we have to do.

here lyes some of the problem. your bishop acknowledges your need for your mass. for traditionalists, a lot of bishops are giving us our mass but making it very hard. exp… this sunday mass is at 5:00 am. so my husband and i have to make a decision. do we pack up 4 children on sat. and stay at a hotel because it is an 1hr and 15min dr.(imagine the expense in gas motel room food donation) or do we get up at 2:00am. or do we go to a mass that we do not agree with how things are done and will not let us receive Christ the way we see reverent. if we want to go to a Solemn High Mass for Christmas or Easter we have to drive 2hrs and 30min. peoria, il to st. louis, mo. now i can go to one closer but they are in schism. i know i should be greatful that we can even have a tridentine mass to go to but it feels like even with the moto poprio they will not make it easy. so when we see the bounty of the novis ordo masses and the careless abuse that seems to be in so many of them it really frustrates us to know end.

 

[ASD]

The reason for raising the point is to help you to understand that the Catholic Church is much bigger than your vision appears to allow for.

The same point, in reverse, is what Summorum Pontificum is all about. The Church and its traditions are much bigger than many liberals have been willing to admit for decades.

But to tear down the OF is to fail to be fully Catholic.

Perhaps. But, presumably that’s a two-edged sword. So, if you’re right, then we can say that all the priests and bishops who “tear down” the TLM/EF fail to be fully Catholic, too.

ASD​

Traditional Latin Mass: Translation and Grammar

 

[weepixie71]

Actually, as written in her diary, Therese would have liked to be a priest.

“To be betrothed to You, Jesus, to be a Carmelite, to become, through my union with You, a mother of souls — surely that ought to be enough for anybody? But somehow, not for me. I seem to have so many other vocations as well! I feel as if I were called to be a fighter, a priest, an apostle, a doctor, a martyr. . . I want to be a priest.”

and as much as he loved and adored therese did he grant her wish?.. if that is what God wanted of her, she would have been a priest.

 

[Member]

Pope Benedict XIV explicitly condemned females serving the priest at the altar with the following words:

"Pope Gelasius in his ninth letter (chap. 26) to the bishops of Lucania condemned the evil practice which had been introduced of women serving the priest at the celebration of Mass. Since this abuse had spread to the Greeks, Innocent IV strictly forbade it in his letter to the bishop of Tusculum: "Women should not dare to serve at the altar; they should be altogether refused this ministry." We too have forbidden this practice in the same words in Our oft-repeated constitution Etsi Pastoralis, sect. 6, no. 21."[2]

A female person may not minister. An exception is permitted only when no male person is available and if a just cause is present. The female person may not, however, approach the altar under any circumstances, and may only respond from afar’. (Canon 813/2).

1980 Pope John Paul II stipulated in an instruction entitled ‘The Inestimable Gift’ that ‘women are not permitted the functions of an altar server’.

The decision came in the form of a circular letter[7] from the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments to presidents of episcopal conferences on 15 March 1994, which announced a 30 June 1992 authentic interpretation (confirmed on 11 July 1992 by Pope John Paul II) from the Pontifical Council for the Interpretation of Legislative Texts. This authentic interpretation said that canon 230 §2 states that service at the altar is one of the liturgical functions that can be performed by both lay men and women. The circular letter, written by the cardinal-prefect of the Congregation, also clarified that canon 230 §2 has a permissive and not a preceptive character, that is, it allows, but does not require, the use of female altar servers. Thus it was for each diocesan bishop to decide whether to allow them in his diocese.

so what in your opinion is the right thing to do?

I do not think girls should be allowed to act as servers at mass. Doing this gives the impression that it is OK to have women priests.

 

[savienu]

Actually, as written in her diary, Therese would have liked to be a priest.

“To be betrothed to You, Jesus, to be a Carmelite, to become, through my union with You, a mother of souls — surely that ought to be enough for anybody? But somehow, not for me. I seem to have so many other vocations as well! I feel as if I were called to be a fighter, a priest, an apostle, a doctor, a martyr. . . I want to be a priest.”

Did she say, “Jesus, you are discriminating against me because I can not be a priest? Jesus, I don’t like the way things are set up, so I’m going to find a priest who agrees with me to let me AT LEAST serve at the altar, and maybe if we disobey Rome enough, they will concede a little bit?” No, she didn’t.

 

[EvelynEVF]

5am to go to a TLM on Sunday? That feels like a slap in the face.

Yikes!

Does not the bishop realize that this is also a great burden on the celebrant?

I am so sorry that your bishop does not value the EF more.

 

[hays1122]

Did she say, “Jesus, you are discriminating against me because I can not be a priest? Jesus, I don’t like the way things are set up, so I’m going to find a priest who agrees with me to let me AT LEAST serve at the altar, and maybe if we disobey Rome enough, they will concede a little bit?” No, she didn’t.

Now you are splitting hairs.
Seems clear to me she wanted to be a priest. Period.
She wrote it down for you to read.

 

[LexKnight]

I agree with everything you said here! I love the cries of “I’m not a feminist, but the patriarchal society of 1993 (since women weren’t granted even ANY permission to serve until after then) was suppressing women!!” Forgive the sarcasm, but c’mon, give me a break! I wonder if St. Therese the Little Flower felt like she wasn’t being honored as a woman because she couldn’t serve the Priest at the altar.

Well, as someone has already said, St. Therese did actually express her desire to be a priest; but I won’t get into that.

The idea isn’t that women should feel obliged to be altar-servers, but rather that giving them the option enables them to serve God in a great way. Someone in this thread has already said that her altar-serving has helped her become closer to God. This proves that denying women this chance that may actually be detrimental for their spiritual well-being.

Long story short, female altar-servers are not inappropriate. If they were, the Church in all her wisdom would not allow the practice in any circumstance! I always find it ironic when traditional Catholics point the finger at liberal Catholics and ask them if they claim to know what is right better than the Church, when they themselves cannot accept her teachings.

Also, savienu, maybe you need to meet some more guitarists. I know many times when guitar has been used to great effect during the Mass.

 

[Extempore]

I always find it ironic when traditional Catholics point the finger at liberal Catholics and ask them if they claim to know what is right better than the Church, when they themselves cannot accept her teachings.

I think the difference is that a traditional Catholic will look at the whole picture of what the Church has taught for hundreds of years rather than focusing solely on what has been allowed since 1991.

Also, its a far stretch to call female altar servers a “teaching” of the Church. More like something that is allowed but not mandated.

 

[savienu]

Now you are splitting hairs.
Seems clear to me she wanted to be a priest. Period.
She wrote it down for you to read.

No, I’m not splitting hairs. She never said she wasn’t being honored as a woman because she could not be a priest, and she didn’t try and get the disciplines of the Church to change. Not at all the same thing. She wanted to be a priest probably because consecrating the Eucharist is an AWESOME thing, but she understood she could NOT be a priest. So, completely different from the point you are trying ot make.

 

[savienu]

I think the difference is that a traditional Catholic will look at the whole picture of what the Church has taught for hundreds of years rather than focusing solely on what has been allowed since 1991.

Also, its a far stretch to call female altar servers a “teaching” of the Church. More like something that is allowed but not mandated.

Yes, thank you. They allow it, apparently grudgingly, since it is left up to the Bishop to give his diocese permission, and then even then the individual Priest does not HAVE to have female altar servers. If Rome thought it was harmful to female spirituality to deny them service at the altar, they would mandate it, considering the Church is in the business of getting people to heaven.

Also, regarding the guitar issue- I disagree. Guitars are inappropriate in worship, especially if parishes actually kept to the GIRM and had some Gregorian Chant. Unless people feel like telling me that you could use guitar to accompany Gregorian Chant?

 

[LexKnight]

I think the difference is that a traditional Catholic will look at the whole picture of what the Church has taught for hundreds of years rather than focusing solely on what has been allowed since 1991.

Also, its a far stretch to call female altar servers a “teaching” of the Church. More like something that is allowed but not mandated.

Still, if the Church says that it is okay and you disagree, you are suggesting that you know better than the Church about what is appropriate in Mass.

Also traditional Catholics generally have a tendency to look at the last couple of hundred years of the Church, rather than the whole of Church history - and they tend to ignore the evolutionary nature of the Church itself.

 

[savienu]

Still, if the Church says that it is okay and you disagree, you are suggesting that you know better than the Church about what is appropriate in Mass.

Also traditional Catholics generally have a tendency to look at the last couple of hundred years of the Church, rather than the whole of Church history - and they tend to ignore the evolutionary nature of the Church itself.

Have you read the GIRM for the OF? Do you realize how many abuses occur as COMMONPLACE now? For example, EMHC are supposed to be JUST THAT: EXTRAORDINARY. Instead, they are scheduled now, when they are not needed. Major abuse. So, no, we don’t clam to “know better” than the Church (although this is discipline, and therefore, the Church can be wrong on this), this is saying that people are abusing the Mass and ignoring the authority of the Pope. THAT is why we even have female altar servers to begin with: because people ignored the authority of the Pope. So, you can’t take something that started as an abuse (people saying they know better than the Pope what belongs in liturgy), and turn it around on those Catholics who actually long for the days of holy obedience and claim THEY are being disobedient. The Pope CONCEDED on this issue since people were abusing this anyway, and no one was listening to him. As late as 1980, JPII still condemned the use of female altars. So, do you think he just, what, got a revelation from God 14 years later that said “this is a’ok?” Come on! He gave in to public pressure. Period.