what does your church teach about Predestination? I have Qs

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1 Tim. 2:4 - “Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”

2 Peter 3:9 - “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

But how can this be reconciled with passages like…

Matthew 22:14
- “Many are called but few are chosen”

…which clearly details a distinction between chosen and unchosen. Christ even spoke of parables (like the Wheat and the Tares) where there is a separation of good fruit and bad fruit.

Also there is a passage Rev. 20:12-15] that talks about the dead being judged at the seat of God. The Book of Life is opened and the dead are judged “according to their works”. Whoever was not found written in th book of life was casted into the lake of fire Rev. 20:15].

Answer:

What I’m about to say may be controversal for many (Catholics and Non-Catholics) but,

We (all of our names) are written in the Book of Life…THAT is our Predestination.

Before Satan, we were alive…but after Adam’s choice we were dead…then after Christ redemptive act, we received life once again.

That is God’s Will: Life, as “God is Life”…but we have the free will to choose against God; against God’s Will…thus we erase our names out of the Book of Life.

Psalm 69:28 - “Let them be blotted out [erased] of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.”

The Book of Life is not a book any of us possess and can read. It is sparingly reference to throughout the whole of the books in the Bible. Nevertheless, it is a book we have power to alter, individually. We - throughout our works (choices in life) - have the power to remove our name from this Holy Census or Manifest, if you will (…hey! That’s a pun).

Our individual walk in life is our choice…we have free will. The only thing that matters to God is Life (and lack of Life). He wants all of his seed to live…but it’s their choice. He’s her for us whenever we need him and he will guide us but only if we see his will. This is a grace period when all have a choice - before judgement comes - to either choose life or death.
the bolded stuff contradicts a lot of what you say…

assuming i u/stand…

Everyone’s name… who calls himself Christian is NOT written in that book… otherwise St Lk 13:24 wouldn’t be “true”… and St Mt 7:13, 21… and etc…

also the saints say that few go to Heaven… not sure if they (most) say that most miss Purg as well but the implication is there.

if you will notice … in the world… most people just do worldly stuff and not many go around tlaking about God and Jesus all the time… not many are trying to evanglize or whatever…

so why is it so hard to believe that not many are saved? Even we devout Christians have a hard time doing evrything Jesus says… i ought to know… I have gotten it straight from the Boss that i dont always cooperate with Jesus as the Word instructs… I spend time with Him in the Real Presence… he shows me many wonderful things… too wonderful to even try to put into words… I go there and sit in silcen… the longer i am there the better. which i guess goes w/ o saying…
 
Matthew 22:14 is more than the one passage. It speaks of a wedding feast that one made it to only to not be dressed for the occasion and cast out. The king invited any to attend but some were not ready or worthy to be there. That is why “many are called and few are chosen”. I would read the entire passage in context.

“I have placed before you life and death, choose life”. God is not the author of sin nor did he decide our actions. He doesn’t create man only to condemn him, we do it ourselves. He is a just judge and keeps his word. I like to think that our names are blotted out the moment we sin and it is unrepentant til death.

God does know what we will do in our life. He assists us by giving us grace which we accept or reject. Every Catholic knows we have to persevere to the very end. If we do not persevere then we will have our names blotted out and jesus will say we did not know him !!
 
God does know what we will do in our life. He assists us by giving us grace which we accept or reject. Every Catholic knows we have to persevere to the very end. If we do not persevere then we will have our names blotted out and jesus will say we did not know him !!
i dont believe this. I dont even know what i am going to do when i have spare time or whatever… All God “knows” is what we are going to be INCLINED to do, based on where we are with Him… whether we are his or the devil’s…

it does not take away from God’s omniscience to say this…

If a father gives his child a choice of whether to play with his toys or have dessert or whatever… he totally gives the child the choice… The father may “know” what he is going to choose based on what choices he has made b4… but he does not know absolutely… otherwise the child is just a robot… He knows what is going on inside the child (God does), but he doesn’t know every single choice he is going to make… until he makes it or begins to make it…

i have scriptures i can use to back this up but not on me… maybe tomorrow…
 
I know it is a hard thing to grasp, but god does know who will persevere (elect). This does not affect our free will. We live our lives in real time. Just like a college teacher who says 50% of the people in this class will fail. He didn’t cause them to fail. He didn’t make decisions for them. The difference is that he (god) actually knows who will pass the test.
 
I know it is a hard thing to grasp, but god does know who will persevere (elect). .
God only knows who is LIKELY to persevere…

God made us “gods”… meaning we have freedom to choose to do whatever…

dont waste your time trying to convince me o/wise…

it wont work… my mind is made up
 
I don’t understand what the problem is here…For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?”But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory
 
  1. If you study Judaism they are first to understand free will and it started with the jews.
  2. God is not the author of evil and sin.
  3. When you read the Old Testament you see that god frequently gets angry. Why would he get angry if we are doing what he decided for us ?
  4. God gave adam and eve choices in garden of eden, they choose death.
  5. Angels were given free will and choose to rebel from god.
  6. God is Absolutely Sovereign but does not always exercise this sovereignty. This is the case for free will.
  7. God wills that alll men be saved and come to repentance. Salvation is for everyone not only the elect. Repentance is an act of free will. We condemn ourselves.
  8. We are given grace, and this has different effects on different people. One may come to god and another not. This is an effect of free will.
  9. Evil and Sin entered into this world thru our Free will. God allows evil and sin to exist to extract a greater good.
  10. He set forth the pathway to Salvation (Jesus) now we have to act of our free will and respond to grace.
  11. Jews are called still necked people who reject the holy spirit. Think about that, we can reject the holy spirit. We have to respond to Grace.
  12. God did raise up Pharoah to demonstrate his glory. Pharoah only acted on what was already in his heart. His pride welled up and he pursued a folly. If I saw the ocean split by the power of god I wouldn’t go rushing in.
  13. As we draw nearer to god he draws nearer to us.
  14. Scripture does not contradict itself so we have to dig deeper for meaning. Sometimes translational issues create problems.
 
  1. If you study Judaism they are first to understand free will and it started with the jews.
  2. God is not the author of evil and sin.
  3. When you read the Old Testament you see that god frequently gets angry. Why would he get angry if we are doing what he decided for us ?
  4. God gave adam and eve choices in garden of eden, they choose death.
  5. Angels were given free will and choose to rebel from god.
  6. God is Absolutely Sovereign but does not always exercise this sovereignty. This is the case for free will.
  7. God wills that alll men be saved and come to repentance. Salvation is for everyone not only the elect. Repentance is an act of free will. We condemn ourselves.
  8. We are given grace, and this has different effects on different people. One may come to god and another not. This is an effect of free will.
  9. Evil and Sin entered into this world thru our Free will. God allows evil and sin to exist to extract a greater good.
  10. He set forth the pathway to Salvation (Jesus) now we have to act of our free will and respond to grace.
  11. Jews are called still necked people who reject the holy spirit. Think about that, we can reject the holy spirit. We have to respond to Grace.
  12. God did raise up Pharoah to demonstrate his glory. Pharoah only acted on what was already in his heart. His pride welled up and he pursued a folly. If I saw the ocean split by the power of god I wouldn’t go rushing in.
  13. As we draw nearer to god he draws nearer to us.
  14. Scripture does not contradict itself so we have to dig deeper for meaning. Sometimes translational issues create problems.
i got as far as #9… which i dont agree with. I agree that God brings good from evil… but nt that He allows good and evil just so He can do so… No, God hates evil and does not in any way condone it or allow it… except insofar as he allows US to have free willl to choose evil…God works with what we give him…
 
God does allow evil. **He can stop it at any time **and Revelation in great detail shows how he will end sin and evil. In book of Job he allowed the devil to test Job. Jesus was even tested by Satan in the Gospels. We are given enough grace to overcome sin if we choose to. I know it can be a struggle for us all. God is Absolutely Sovereign so he called everything into being. Sin entered into the world thru our free will. God did not create sin nor is sin part of his original divine plan. We were created to be in the presence of god. We rebelled and fell in the garden of eden. Jesus paid the price for our Redemption so we have an opportunity for salvation if we can repent, avoid sin and persevere to the end. I think these truths are self evident…
 
God does allow evil. **He can stop it at any time **and Revelation in great detail shows how he will end sin and evil. In book of Job he allowed the devil to test Job. Jesus was even tested by Satan in the Gospels. We are given enough grace to overcome sin if we choose to. I know it can be a struggle for us all. God is Absolutely Sovereign so he called everything into being. Sin entered into the world thru our free will. God did not create sin nor is sin part of his original divine plan. We were created to be in the presence of god. We rebelled and fell in the garden of eden. Jesus paid the price for our Redemption so we have an opportunity for salvation if we can repent, avoid sin and persevere to the end. I think these truths are self evident…
i never said that God does not allow evil absolutely… I said that he allows it cuz of free will… although i did 4get to mention the devil being allowed to do a lot… Still, God does not, absolutely speaking, LIKE evil… He allows it only cuz that evil may bring about more good than… “good” would bring about… In other words, if the only way for a person to get to Heaven was for God himself to come down and life and die as a human… on a Cross… paying for our sins… well, He would allow that evil… not because He just allows evil for the h- of it but because it would be a greater evil NOT to allow such things as the Cross…

i guess i am guilty of not clarifying my position… so i forgive you for not understanding it…

just dont let it happen again… 😃

i have no idea why you bothered saying the last… say 3 or 4 sentences… I’ve known this stuff since kindergarten…

but anyhow…

i just wanted to make the point that God does not allow evil unless it is the only way to accomplish His goals… and even then it is only because He… well, kinda has no choice since HUMANs choose evil… so again… he has to work w/ what he has… and so he does… Thank you, Jesus… :love:
 
I think we are on the same page Distracted. Sometimes I add the additional stuff to teach the would be Reformed Systematic Theology person lurking in the shadows. I like to think that Catholic church contains the Fullness of truth. All other churches do contain some truth but the “some truth” they contain are Catholic truths. I think that Matorin may fall into that category. Some passages that are said from the point of view of god can be confusing as we cannot fathom the mind of god and his thoughts. We can only study scripture and ponder the depths of the Bible. God Bless !
 
I think we are on the same page Distracted. Sometimes I add the additional stuff to teach the would be Reformed Systematic Theology person lurking in the shadows. I like to think that Catholic church contains the Fullness of truth. All other churches do contain some truth but the “some truth” they contain are Catholic truths. I think that Matorin may fall into that category. Some passages that are said from the point of view of god can be confusing as ***we cannot fathom the mind of god and his thoughts. *** We can only study scripture and ponder the depths of the Bible. God Bless !
for sure… but there is an even better way…

visiting him in the Blessed Sacrament…

I’ve heard non-Catholics say that God is not in a building… Well… i would never have thought so either… until i went to that “building” and “saw” for myself… saw, felt, experienced…

there is nothing like being with Jesus…

that should go without saying… but a lot of people just dont go be with Him much… even when they KNOW where He is at…😦
 
Not to be rude, but I think we are getting a little off topic here. The question is not about free will, although free will certainly has something to do with predestination.

To go to Peetey’s list, distracted your issues start with #9, mine start with #1.
  1. If you study Judaism they are first to understand free will and it started with the jews.
It started with the one time gift of free will given to the angels, including Lucifer, the fallen angels, and those who stayed with God
  1. God is not the author of evil and sin.
Evil is not a thing, per se, to be created, but rather a lack of thing that is pure and holy, namely God. The opposite of God is not Satan, that is giving him way too much credit. The opposite of God is evil. Isaiah 45:7 for a reference.
  1. When you read the Old Testament you see that god frequently gets angry. Why would he get angry if we are doing what he decided for us ?
Who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory?
  1. God gave adam and eve choices in garden of eden, they choose death.
Technically, they chose the knowledge of good in evil, which resulted in death, but that’s just nitpicking so I’ll let it be 🙂
  1. Salvation is for everyone not only the elect.
You’ll have to explain exactly what you mean by “salvation.” Surely you are not saying that Salvation was available for pharaoh? Or are you speaking to post-Christ?
  1. We are given grace, and this has different effects on different people. One may come to god and another not. This is an effect of free will.
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.” Not everyone is given Grace. Perhaps you will accept if I say God’s grace is not made “efficacious” for all?
 
Matorin, how are you doing ? Are you of Reformed Theology persuasion or some other denomonation ? If you believe in free will for the angels I wonder if you believe in free will for man? Let me explain more fully some of my responses. I can be vague at times.
  1. I said the Jews were the first to understand free will. If you study Judaism you will see that they have a fully developed understanding of free will. This is where Catholicism got its teaching of Free Will in part. Of course the angels were gods first creations with free will.
  2. Regarding evil and sin some protestants believe that god created sin and is author of sin. He has irrestible grace and he decides all we will do. We have no free will. He does this to demonstrate his glory. I reject this as does Catholic theology. Sin entered into the world via our free will, not because god willed it.
  3. God gave us an intellect to discern truth and weigh the evidence before us. Many times in the bible god gets angry and is persuaded to do contrary to what he intended. Why would god get angry if he decides everything we do. This defies and flies in the face of god operating with Full Absolute Sovereignty. He is angered because we sin and it is contrary to his being. I think the vessels prepared for destruction are the souls who will not attain salvation and will end up in hell. God is a just judge and when he hands out judgement he demonstrates his glory.
  4. I have placed before you life and death, choose life. God gave Adam and eve one choice. Satan tricked them but they chose to gain knowledge of good and evil.
  5. The jews and Judaism have no New Testament concept of Heaven. To them the closest to god they were was in the Garden of Eden. I think they call this Gad Eden. Salvation is more of a New Testament concept to me. Heaven was not open until the death of jesus. Pharoah died probably before Works of the law came. I think if he had repented he may have had a chance. God knew what he would do and allowed him to act on what was already in his heart.
  6. God does have mercy on whom he wills. As we draw near to god so he draws near to us. It wouldn’t be mercy if we deserved it.
 
I am doing quite well, thank you! I currently attend a non-denominational church that, when compared with the mass, is quite similiar. Trying to pidgeon-hole my “persuasion” would be difficult as I believe doing so is a bit reminiscent of 1 Cor 3. In any case I will try to make my position as clear as possible.

First off, God gaves us free will, and he also has predestined us for salvation. This is evidenced in Scripture that BOTH are true and if they are in conflict with each other it is that our understanding of one or both are incorrect. So yes, I absolutely believe God gave us a choice in choosing salvation, to not believe so would be to completely contradict the very heart of the gospel message Christ gave to the apostles.

I can’t say I “believe” in free will for angels as nothing in Scripture ever talks about it except for the instance that they follow Lucifer away from the presence of God, but Lucifer certainly seems to have left by his own volition so there must have been some choice given to him by God, but there is no point in which we see the current salvation or transfer from heavenly to fallen or visa versa when it comes to angels, so I have no real position on it. If you would like to enlighten me to any teaching by the Magesterium I will gladly submit.

Again, evil is not a “thing” to be created, just as God is not one to be created. Evil is just things not of God, so to say God created evil is like saying God created himself, it doesn’t quite make sense because evil has to do with a spiritual dimension of godlessness whereas the idea that it was “created” is far too time oriented. Basically, I am agreeing with you that God did not “create” evil, that he does not decide all we do, etc. You can put that how-to-refute-hyper-calvinism book down :rolleyes:

You will notice that God only gets angry at the Jews. Does he pour out his wrath on the Canaanites? Certainly. Does he completely destroy Sodom and Gomorrah? Sure does! But his anger burns against Israel only. He destroys the nations because of their sin, but when Israel sins, what happens? He gets ANGRY. Why? Because they are called to something different, but their free will is messing it up. He pours out his wrath on the nations so to show his glory before all, but does not destroy Israel. The fact that God can limit his absolute sovereignty and power by NOT controlling everything absolutely is what amazes me more than the idea of him actually controlling everything. In any case, this is clearly what Paul is talking about, yes?

I am agreeing with you on 4 no worries. A great verse is Romans 5:11 or 12 I think? Through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, etc.

And from then on out, we are agreed. In fact, I think we are in agreement all the way through. A quick question, if I have a LOT (and I mean a lot) of questions on Catholicism, is there someone here I can talk to? I feel like the local priests I have talked to are a bit out of their depths and I always leave our meetings with questions as unanswered as before. It seems like since there are so many questions posted here many get few answers if they are difficult theologically but not, perhaps, that interesting.

I ask all this because my fiancee is Catholic and I have been interested in the Catholic church for a long time, I just need to reconcile some of the core beliefs of the church with what the Holy Spirit has led me to through Scripture.
 
for sure… but there is an even better way…

visiting him in the Blessed Sacrament…

I’ve heard non-Catholics say that God is not in a building… Well… i would never have thought so either… until i went to that “building” and “saw” for myself… saw, felt, experienced…

there is nothing like being with Jesus…

that should go without saying… but a lot of people just dont go be with Him much… even when they KNOW where He is at…😦
So what are you saying here… To be with Jesus is by Going into the catholic church at any time and spend time with him There. Like meeting him there only.

I am a bit confused here.

I thought it was about communicating with the holy spirit in you
Or praying to God in heaven.
This is all i have been doing.

Can you meet Jesus in a protestant church?

Or can Jesus come into your bedroom?

I read somewhere in the bible when 2 or 3 gather in my name i will there with them.

With predestination. It still means you are chosen before you are born.
Jacob and his descendants could not fail to be saved

Esau and his descendants could not fail to be lost.

There is a {’‘direct will’’} of God, you are a slave to righteousness
or a slave to unrighteousness. So where is the free will there. A slave meens no free will.
If you are in a prision you have no freewill.
You are a prisioner of Christ or a prisioner of satan.

The only free will i Know is the permisable will of God you are Free to do what you Like
in the Lord. Like who to marry or what Job to do.etc

Even satan has no free will. only what God permits he can do.
 
Matorin, you sound like a Catholic to me already. I think we are in agreement but only how we stated our positions caused confusion. The catholic religion is a beautiful religion. Its teachings are true as it was started by jesus on the person of Peter. You are right, I can smell Calvinism and “Faith Alone” Lutheranism a mile away. I respect their beliefs but I will refute it at every turn as I feel it leads people away from the Truth or “The Way” as it were.
 
Matorin, feel free to ask me any questions you have. I am no theologian but between me and my brother Michael we can give a run for your money. You can Private message me if you want to. There are some pretty heavy cats on this board if I can’t help you.

Shaky, Jesus makes his presence known in the Blessed Sacrament. Even on the road to emmaus he made his presence known in the breaking of bread. I have heard the where 2 or more are gathered arguement. Read the entire passage and it will not work in the context you say. It is actually an arguement for the Catholic church and her authority. Look up the passages and post the arguement again.

We should try to stay on the OP topic. I know it is fun to discuss Catholic Theology !
 
Matorin, you sound like a Catholic to me already. I think we are in agreement but only how we stated our positions caused confusion. The catholic religion is a beautiful religion. Its teachings are true as it was started by jesus on the person of Peter. You are right, I can smell Calvinism and “Faith Alone” Lutheranism a mile away. I respect their beliefs but I will refute it at every turn as I feel it leads people away from the Truth or “The Way” as it were.
Hi peeteyg

Feel free to refute or correct any thing i have said. I welome it. I only want to Know the truth.

Jesus was predestinated its in scripture. because God knew before he was born Jesus would do his will by choice.
It is the same for us God knows us before we where born and what we will do by choice
that is why we are chosen and some are not.

When God created Lucifer he knew before he created him that he would rebel.

Satan was now on the earth.

Before God created adam and eve he knew they would fall.

Think about it. God made man in his own Image.
But GOD knows Good and Evil.

Adam and eve did not Know Good and Evil.
But now they know Good and Evil.

Q1 Is this the purpose of God?
 
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