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PJM
Guest
POST #10 is a GREAT reply, I’ll add to it tomorrow. I’m 72 and very tired today {i’m the OP]
Thanks “twf” and THANKS for asking!
GBY
Patrick
- Status
Thanks “twf” and THANKS for asking!
GBY
Patrick
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PJM
Guest
For the sake of being able to follow along I have added a #3 to your points
[1] As asked this is a complex question with multiple points
1st is the nature of sin itself
ALL sins have a “public nature”; meaning that all sins affect others besides the sinner. Abortion, theft, lies, adultery, gossip, are but a few CLEAR examples of this fact.
A consequence of this mandate in Divine Justice is that ALL sins [even those confessed and forgiven: 1 Jn 5: 16-17 & Jn 20:19-23] CAUSE & REQUIRE God to apply a penalty, which theologians TERM “the Temporal punishment due to sins”
This “TP-DEBT” [for brevity] is directly imposed by GOD, so ONLY God can keep track of the amount of “TP-DEBT”, and also to what degree HE accepts the necessary and essential repayment which God requires.
OF NOTE: “TP-DEBT” is but a TEMPORARY obstruction to heaven. Through Purgatory it Can and will eventually be repaid in full so the Souls can and will eventually attain heaven. Unlike unconfessed and unforgiven Mortal sins, & denial of a provable God, which self-condemn a Souls to eternal Hell.
The RC-Church CAN know which actions can and DO affect and lesson the “TP” penalties through the POWER & the authority of the KEY’s to Heaven
Mt 16:18-19
And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give TO YOU [all of them implied] the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever YOU shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever YOU shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.
This Godly GIFT is directly, precisely and granted by God to the Apostles and their successors [read Mt 10:1-5 then verses 6-8 & compare them to Mt 28:19-20]
God’s COMMAND has been changed from ONLY to the Jews to Now the ENTIRE world, which can ONLY be accomplished through Succession. It is Christ who instituted succession
Godly intended authority and Powers transferred are evidenced in Mt 10:1-2; Mt 16:18-19, John 17:18 & 20:21, and Mt 28:19-20
use this site to look them up
www. drbo.org/
2nd “Binding & Loosening” in this context has 2 meanings
First HERE they are rabbinical terms, so common as to be enforceable in Jewish Courts of Law; & mean to grant, & DO grant UNLIMITED powers & authority of Governance.
At that time larger cities like Jerusalem WERE actually Walled in, had doors and were locked at night by the Kings chosen Visar /Prime-minister; who held the KEY’S & had UNLIMITED AUTHORITY FOR day to day Governance of THAT CITY, ANSWERABLE ONLY TO THE KING. Jesus the King, had precisely this role in mind for Peter
Secondly here is also implied Powers to forgive sins.
Third, is the fact the Church is thereby empowered to enact laws and regulations binding on all.
Forth, these heaven approved powers [Mt 16:19] permit the Church to do ALL that is necessary or beneficial for the Souls entrusted to Her.
INDULGENCE. “The remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins forgiven as far as their guilt is concerned, which the follower of Christ with the proper dispositions and under certain determined conditions acquires through the intervention of the Church, which, as minister of the redemption, authoritatively dispenses and applies the treasury of the satisfaction won by Christ and the saints” (Pope Paul VI, Apostolic Constitution on Indulgences).
.… From now on the measure of how efficacious an indulgenced work is depends on two things: the supernatural charity with which the indulgenced task is done, and the perfection of the task itself.
Another innovation is that partial and plenary indulgences can always be applied to the dead by way of suffrage Fr. Hardon’s Catholic Dictionary
Indulgences take 2 forms:
Partial repayment & Plenary; complete repayment of the TP-Debt up to the point of further sin.
The Indulgences are critically conditional to have the maximum desired effects; which ONLY God knows to what degree they are met, so God ALONE can and does make the determination of the debt being paid prior to death.
[2] The Church cannot, & does not know the degree of the Indulgences; nor is it necessary that She be able too. God alone is the Judge. The Role of the Church is to make POSSIBLE repayment while on earth, which is fulfilled through Indulgences.
[3] Purgatory
Your post explains accurately what the church can do and is limited from knowing. BUT that in no way affects what actually takes place.
The Role of the RCC is to make remission of TP-Debt possible, which She has fulfilled. Her responsibilities near an end here; & are added to through Masses and prayers for the deceased
Because only God can know the amount of the debt, and to what degree said debt has been God-approved & paid, or is left; the Church bows out and lets God BE GOD.
Thanks for asking!
Indulgences are arbitrary ONLY in the sense and to the degree that the conditions are fully and accurately met, which is up to the sinner; NOT the Church.
GBY
Patrick
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Mike_from_NJ
Guest
So the Church doesn’t know:
- Whether a soul would go to Hell.
- Whether a soul would go to Heaven without need of temporal punishment.
- Whether a soul would go to Heaven, but requires some measure of temporal punishment.
- How God applies this temporal punishment in any way, shape, or form
- How much temporal punishment a soul requires before it is pure for Heaven.
If you read my initial post I am not questioning indulgences in general. They are both unprovable and unfalsifiable so there is no point in disputing them. No, my problem is the quantifying of the reduction of temporal punishment without knowing in the slightest how such punishments are applied.
I understand the Church no longer gives specific lengths of time in their indulgences, but for the longest it did. That’s what I’m questioning.
Again, for most of its existence the Church did did give details on the degree and conditions of these indulgences. When the Church was quantifying these indulgences how did they do so? Was it earlier incorrect in doing so, or is this a power they no longer possess?
T
twf
Guest
I think the process is much more mystical than you’re giving it credit for - even in the older formulations of “days”. Yes, I agree that to a modern mind, even for a Catholic, the formulation of days comes off a bit odd. What exactly does it mean for an indulgence of 120 days to be the equivalent of a 120 days of penance? I think the Church would have said then, as it says now with the much less precise classification of “plenary” and “partial”, that the ultimate decision was left to God. Perhaps God knows exactly what 120 straight days of penance would merit if I, Tyler, were to carry those days out. This isn’t a scientific question, its a theological question. I don’t think the Church ever meant it to be as cut and dry as you’re making it out to be. There was always an element of divine mystery. A 365 day indulgence would have been of greater benefit than a 120 day indulgence, but I don’t think the Church ever taught that we know exactly what the effects would be for a particular individual.
In terms of the indulgence being applied to a soul in purgatory, as opposed to yourself (remember indulgences can be applied for oneself or for the deceased), you are correct that the Church has never claimed to know who is in hell, purgatory, or heaven. It has always been my understanding that God, in his infinite wisdom, simply applies any “misdirected” indulgences where they are needed most. This is what I’ve been told in the past. I don’t see why it would have been any different with the older “days” system.
Look at the general practice of prayers for the dead. The Church, at least today, invites us to pray for all the departed. What if I’m praying for a soul who is already damned? Perhaps God can apply the “merits” of my prayers and offerings to a soul in purgatory who needs them. Or perhaps my prayers, even posthumously, can assist a soul in avoiding hell in the first place…after all, God is not limited by time…He exists outside time as we understand it.
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PJM
Guest
CORRECT
In PARTGod DOES KNOW, as does His RCC. Only the Church does NOT know to what degree the precise conditions have, or have not been met, which affects the degree of repayment. This GOD alone can know.
BUT, as a further protection the RCC has the Sacrament of “the Anointing” /The “Last Rites”; which similar to Baptism REMOVES ALL sins as well as ALL [even the TP-Debt] as assures immediate heaven UNLESS that souls should sin again before dying.
But I [Me here] fail to see the relevance:shrug:
I explained the Power & the authority of the [all of the] Key’s to heavens single gate.
IF you’d like more information on this, please let ME know.
Here my friend you’re a bit off.
They are NOT unprovable; only unquantifiable. NOT the same thing dues to the preciseness of the conditions which are required.
The Church DOES KNOW; only NOT in specifics. Follow the directions and the results are guaranteed
Indulgences CAN CONDITIONALLY take two forms
Partial repayment and OR FULL repayment up to that POINT.
Hence as stated your position is lacking completeness IMO
You’re missing the point here. Time is NOT relevant to a Soul. So the granting of specific times had no more effect than NOT giving specific times; which were too very conditional; EXCEPT for one [which still applies BTW]., and that is any EXCESS of merit is automatically transferable by GOD to another Soul in need. No good works are wasted, or without effect. Isaiah 55: 6-10
While in part true, I fail to comprehend the relevance?
The FACTS are that Indulgences remain a Doctrine of the RCC, which means that they are GOD-ASSURED. Time does not exist for GOD for whom everything is “present time.”
God CAN ONLY be fair and just, and GOD is on our side. 1 Timothy 2: 3-4
Once a body ceases to live, our Spiritual “other self” [Mind, Intellect & freewill; all of which are permanent attachments to the human’s Soul] have, as does GOD, no need of time. So this discussion if it hinges on TIME, has no relevance.
I hope and pray this explain it for you? If not, PLEASE keep asking questions.
Mike: JUST AS God trust His Church Mt 16:19; so to, the Church has complete TRUST in GOD:thumbsup:
GBY
Patrick
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Mike_from_NJ
Guest
If the Church doesn’t know what it means for an indulgence to equal 120 days worth of penance, then there’s no way it can say that an indulgence equals 120 days of penance. If it didn’t mean it to be cut and dry then it should not have used specific numbers for centuries before going to the plenary or partial method. By giving specific numbers not only was it saying that a 365 day indulgence had more benefit than a 120 day indulgence, but it was saying that it had triple the benefit.
The parts about what happens to those extra days for a soul already pure and whether someone can apply indulgences for others (including the dead) are not material to the question of where these numbers and acts for the indulgences derived from.
As I noted before the Church has imprecise (to put it mildly) as to how temporal punishment works, how much is needed, etc.; but then it spoke precisely as to how much temporal punishment certain actions alleviated.
Again giving the number of days of penance an act is work is specifics. The Church can’t guarantee that a particular act will be worth 120 days of penance if it can’t tell anything about the process involved.
It must have some relevance to a soul either in the way we understand time or as a measure of the amount of penance needed to purify a soul for Heaven. It’s call temporal penance for a reason.
This goes back to my original points. The Church did give specific times, but now your’re saying in saying they were not necessarily accurate and conditional.
For example, the Church might have said that action X was worth 120 days of penance; but it’s wholly possible that such an act would be worth 23 days for person A and 122 days for person B.
There seems to be absolutely nothing underpining how the lengths given in the indulgences were derived. I’m asking where they were derived and what I’m getting back in response is that the numbers given are not accurate. That’s what I don’t understand, how the Church quantified what appears to be unquantifiable.
T
twf
Guest
You raise some good questions in regards to the specific number of days. Perhaps it was because of these sorts of difficulties that Blessed Paul VI (I think it was him) introduced the much simpler, much more mystical “plenary” and “partial” approach to indulgences. I will have to do some reading and see if I can find something from that era that may shed some more light on the Church’s historical thinking.
Does this even fall under the umbrella of “infallibility”? Certainly the concept of indulgences does. Certainly the Church’s authority to grant indulgences does. The specific number of “days” the Church assigned to indulgences in times past? I’m not so sure. I don’t think we could say that “this indulgence equates to 120 days” was ever a dogma of the faith…in the sense that the concept of indulgences itself is.
Of course from a historical perspective, as I mentioned earlier, the concept of specific number of days or years would have grown out of the ancient practice of bishops commuting the prescribed penances for certain grave sins.
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PJM
Guest
Mike my friend,
I confess to be struggling with WHY this is so important to you.
I explained in my last POST:
- Time dies not exist for God, to whom ALL is present-time
- That any excess of merit is not wasted, as it is credited to another soul in need
- That while the Church is well within Her Rights, Power & Authority to either apply a specific time fo specific actions; She can als choose not too.
- The METHOD falls under :church practices" which ARE changeable; WHILE the reality and value of Indulgences is a Doctrine: NOT changeable
OK
And just WHY does this matter, As GOD alone is the bookkeeper
Divine Justice WILL be accomplished to the degree that WE advantage WHAT the Church makes possible, and to the precise degree that WE meet the conditions set forth and mandated
Absolutely wrong
Here’s WHYMt 16:[19] And I will give to YOU [ALL OF]the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever** YOU shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever YOU shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heave**n.
This BINDS & commits GOD to honor what rules on Faith and Morals the Church OFFICIALLY introduce & teach
It does, your just not grasping it
What ever is MERITED according to the Church is APPLIED justly by & in full by GOD
The closer we get to FULLY meeting the requirements the Church sets for each Indulgence; the closer we come to receiving the FULL effects and promises of that work.
So it is up to US; both the Church and GOD have done all they can do in Divine Justice
NOT QUITE:
The times given WERE-fully- honored conditionally to the exact degree the PRECISE commands of that particular work entailed. WHICH only GOD can know.
So I did not mean to imply that they din;t matter; ONLY that its merit DEPENDS on full & precise adherence to the works to be accomplished exactly as requested,
NOT true
The effects, are in DIRECT relation to the degree of precise compliance; BUT always CREDITED at least in PART, as rightly earned
God Bless you Mike
Patrick
{i’ll be gone for a week of so as we are moving back to Ohion this week end]
M
Mike_from_NJ
Guest
You sent out an invitation to everyone to ask what about Catholicism doesn’t make sense to us. This is one of those things. Is it important to me? Not so much, but this is a puzzle to be solved (which intrigues me): How does one say with numerical certainty how something will go without either experiencing it or having an understanding of how it works? If I go to an investment broker and he tells me that a certain stock is going to go up 12% in the next month I have to question his certainty when he doesn’t know the machinations by which a stock’s price rises and falls.
But it is relevant to souls in purgatory, whether it be actual time they spend there or as a measure for the amount of penance/punishment required to purify that soul for Heaven.
As I said before, whatever happens to excess indulgence time is not relevant to how the Church can ascribe certain very specific days or years to certain activities.
God alone determines whether a soul is pure enough for Heaven, no matter what the Chruch says. I got into more detail below.
For purposes of this discussion I’m allowing that God and Purgatory exist, and that indulgences can cause some reduction in the temporal punishment for a person in Purgatory. The questions I keep coming back to are how the Church determined how much temporal punishment various acts reduced in light of the fact that the Church readily admits having a lack of understanding on how Purgatory works.
You keep talking about the binding and loosing, but again the whole point of Purgatory is to purify the soul. The Church can’t tell God when the soul is pure for Heaven in the exact same way it can’t tell God who is to be sent to Heaven or Hell. The Purgatory process is one the Church and you say is in God’s hands and not understood by man. No repeating of the binding and loosing will negate that – no matter how you bolden, colorize, or increase the size of the words you write.
Let’s say we have the soul of a person, we’ll call him Manos. God determines Manos will be going to Purgatory as his soul is not pure enough to enter Heaven. Now in scenario A we see Manos completed indulgence A which is worth 365 days of penance (according to the Church). In scenario B Manos completed indulgence B which is also said to be worth 365 days. Now let’s say in scenario A God applies indulgence A and finds that it is enough to purify Manos’s soul, and in scenario B we find indulgence B is not enough to purify Manos’s soul. If you want we can even say neither is enough to purify Manos’s soul but he has less further penance to accomplish afterward in scenario A versus scenario B. We then have a problem since the Chruch, but whatever metric it comes up with these numbers say indulgences A and B should be equally as effective. When numbers are involved they have to come from somewhere, especially when they are said to measure whether a goal is accomplished or not.
If it’s possible for indulgences of supposedly equal worth to be unequally effective, then how are the numbers derived?
If you’re saying that indulgences of supposedly equal worth are equally effective, then what is the evidence there is for that statement?
Enjoy your trip!
T
twf
Guest
That’s not quite accurate. Here’s what the Catechism says - and I think it sums it up fairly well. If you need more let me know.
T
twf
Guest
Gazelam,
Did the Catechism quotes help at all?
S
SalamKhan
Guest
Why the prophets, patriarchs, righteous, and believers among the Israelites prior to Jesus (AS) did not recognise a Trinity.
Why the Church did not use a more objective method in determining the canon of the New Testament, but instead seems to have chosen books from doctrinal bias. Why the authors of many books of the New Testament are unverifiable. Why the traditions of the Church are unverifiable, but instead are only testified to by secondary sources at best.
I have more about systematics concerning God, Trinity, Evil, Eucharist, Papacy, etc. but I’d rather keep it simple and objective for now.
Why the Church did not use a more objective method in determining the canon of the New Testament, but instead seems to have chosen books from doctrinal bias. Why the authors of many books of the New Testament are unverifiable. Why the traditions of the Church are unverifiable, but instead are only testified to by secondary sources at best.
I have more about systematics concerning God, Trinity, Evil, Eucharist, Papacy, etc. but I’d rather keep it simple and objective for now.
P
patmiron
Guest
Being an infant does not distance one from Orginal sin
Hence Jesus tells everyone that in an absolute sense Christian Baptism is essential for salvation
John 3:5 and Mt 28 : 18
God bless you
Patrick
:
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patmiron
Guest
My friend
I just moved to Ohio from Florida and we’re waist high in boxes to be unpacked
Don’t have intErnest set up yet
Please give me a bit of time aND I’ll get back to you
Thanks and God bless
Patrick
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PJM
Guest
PJM14584225:
Why do Catholics believe that newly-born infants are tainted by inherited sin?
Quote:
Originally Posted by gazelam View Post
Why do Catholics believe that newly-born infants are tainted by inherited sin?
Quote:
Two reasons:
- Jesus [the Messiah] while revealed as “to COME” was in the future
- The unfolding of religious truths were to be revealed when the people were ABLE to comprehend same
Why the Church did not use a more objective method in determining the canon of the New Testament, but instead seems to have chosen books from doctrinal bias. Why the authors of many books of the New Testament are unverifiable. Why the traditions of the Church are unverifiable, but instead are only testified to by secondary sources at best
While this appears in the NT, it’s validity applies to the ENTIRE bible
I’m the OP
Please send me a private message and we can discuss ALL of these issues if you’d care too? [PJM] Patrick
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PJM
Guest
Well put! THANKS
Space is limited so I will be brief. If you desire a more in-depth reply, let me know
[1] What you are asking is WHY humanity exist AND are gifted a mind, intellect and freewill
Here’s the short answer
Isaiah 43: 7 &21
7 every one who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made. & 21 the people whom I formed for myself that **they might **declare my praise. [OUR freewill choice]
Genesis 1:26-27 teaches us that GOD freely choose to create man in His very own image" But God is SPIRIT [Jn 4:23-24], and man is mortal, SO HOW can this be?
Humanities “other self”; a mind, intellect and freewill; are ALL permanently attached to our Souls, like our GOD, & are spiritual realities, that are “spiritual” like God and immortal like God. If you doubt this describe YOUR freewill: what is its color, shape, size and weight? Can’t be done because they ARE spiritual realities; yet they exist.
The second part of the reason we exist as we do, is that in all of creations BILLIONS of things; only ONE, only humanity is enabled to:
Know of God {trough creation itself which exist for this precise purpose}
Then enabled to freely choose to actually KNOW God
Then choose to love or hate Him
So the purpose of our life then is "The GOD Test"
BECAUSE God has time & time again proven His PERFECT love for us; God is entitled to request {even expect but NOT demand} perfect love be returned to Him. “Love” to be perfect HAS to be freely given; hence our UNIQUE ability to choose:
Sir.15: [17] Before a man are life and death, and whichever he chooses will be given to him
[2]The “REAL PRESENCE” is both a mystery and a miracle {actually 2 miracles} which is attested to by 5 different GOD inspired authors of the NT
**Mt 26
Mk 14
Lk 22
John6
Paul: 1st Cor **
GOOGLE “Eucharistic Miracles”
This belief by the Early Church is attested to in the bible; FIRST known as “the Breaking of the THEE Bread”
Acts.2:42 “And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers”
[3]** The reasons the Catholic Priesthood MUST [in an absolute sense] be reserved to male gender was Infallibly defined {Holy Spirit guided} by St John Paul II. In summary he listed the following REASONS WHY only a male gender person is ABLE to be a Catholic Priest**
- “Holy Orders” [the Catholic Priesthood] is a SACRAMENT instituted by Jesus Christ, so no power on earth is able to override Christ decision
- “Sacred Tradition”
Throughout history GOD has freely chosen men for the priestly- role:
Exod.28: 1 "Then bring near to you Aaron your brother, and his sons with him, from among the people of Israel, to serve me as priests – Aaron and Aaron’s sons, Nadab and Abi’hu, Elea’zar and Ith’amar”
- Because Jesus HIMSELF is “Really, Truly {actually} and Substantially made present in CATHOLIC Holy Communion; AND because Jesus IS male -gender; ONLY a person who IS ALSO male-gender CAN make Jesus Present in Catholic Holy Communion: “This IS MY BODY”: Please see the 5 references given earlier.
Sorry for the brief replies, but space is limited.
Patrick**
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peter26
Guest
It can not be a coincidence that all the apostles chosen by Christ were male. To which we can add St Paul’s exhortation that a woman must be silent in church. You can interpret that in different ways, but speaking with the authority of a priest in celebrating the Eucharist would clearly be prohibited. The priesthood was also only men in the Old Testament, which also lends support to this being God’s design.
W
Wannano
Guest
You ask a question that also intrigues me. I hope you get a sincere response. I asked several months ago also how a priest who would have the stain of mortal stain on his soul through the actions of sexual abuse could be an effective “alter Christ” in achieving the Eucharist. Apparently it doesn’t matter how sinful the priest may be, he still can say the words of consecration and turn the wafer into the flesh of Jesus.
Your question is also my question.
- Status