What doesn't make sense to you?

[PJM]

REPLY TO POST 365 CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS POST

You’re ORIGINAL question was “WHY CAN”T WOMEN BE PRIEST?”
I gave first a summary reply which you found lacking; and then supplied St John Paul II’s INFALLIBLE Teaching document for your review.

My first reply was fully self- explained. Here it is again; it deals with the Most Holy Eucharist which as I previously explained and evidenced is the “Sum and Summary” of Catholic beliefs and therefore all of Christianity. …. CCC #1324

1 Because Jesus Christ is BOTH:

TRUE GOD & TRUE MAN possessing a perfect human nature & always His Perfect Divine Nature

2 Jesus choose to be born into humanity in MALE GENDER

3 It was Jesus in his Human nature that suffered the Passion and Rose again On Easter Sunday; NOW IN HIS GLORIFIED BODY, BLOOD, SOUL & Divinity

4 It was Jesus as God & man who Personally said, as attested to by FIVE different authors of the NT

“THIS IS MY BODY”

“[YOU] DO THIS IN MEMORY OF ME”

5 Because Catholic & Orthodox Holy Communion ARE “Really, Truly, Substanually [the entire Jesus] BODY, Blood, Soul & Divinity

St John Paul in summary form gave the following reasons that ONLY a male gender person is ABLE [capable of] making that very SAME Jesus PRESENT through Transubstantiation.

1. Both Ordination & the Eucharist are Sacraments INSTITUTED by Jesus Christ; hence no other power on earth is able to overrule what GOD Ordained
2. Sacred Tradition: From ALL recorded time, GOD choose men [male gender] to be HIS Priest; and not even the Pope can overrule this Sacred Tradition; KNOWING that God has HIS reasons for such a decision
3. Because Jesus was MALE GENDER
   BECAUSE Jesus proclaimed “THIS IS MY BODY”

BECAUSE Jesus Himself commanded “YOU”….”DO THIS IN COMMERATION OF ME”
4. IN AN ABSOLUTE SENSE THEN ONLY ANOTHER MALE-GENDER PERSON CAN [IS ABLE / EMPOWERED] TO MAKE JESUS CHRIST; TRUE GOD AND TRUE MAN [NOW IN HIS GLORIFIED BODY] PRESENT IN HOLY COMMUNION. AMEN!

GOD IS NOT INTERESTED IN OUR OPINIONS, BUT VERY MUCH INTERESTED IN OUR SALVATION.

“Whenever something is good it does not depend on us getting our way, but on God getting His way, and whether we do God’s Will depends on us [humbly] loving God. Moreover to love God we must [actually] know God, [not just know OF God].” Bread of Life booklet January 9, 2016”[Mt 7:21]

So my friend, I am answering your questions; but you’re missing some of the absolutely critical points I am sharing

PRAYER is the answer. ASK GOD to help you.

Continued Blessings,
Patrick

 

[PJM]

One thing that I have thought about regarding Catholic teaching (I wouldn’t say it “doesn’t make sense” since I know it does within Catholic doctrine) is the idea that one may lead a virtuous life but “slip up” at the very end by committing a mortal sin for which one does not seek repentance and thus be condemned to hell. Why wouldn’t G-d consider the TOTALITY of a person’s life rather than so severely penalize them for a mortal sin which stands in opposition to the good features of the rest of their life? Isn’t this more just?

GREAT questions! THANKS
The short answer is that God HAS to be GOD:

“All good things perfected”… so we ask are being “fair” and “just” good things?.. OF COURSE they are, so we can know with certainty that God in an absolute sense; has to be; can only be both Fair and Just [Isaiah 55:6-10]

Here are components of that explanation:

1. God commits Himself to OFFER [which can be and often is denied by man or misapplied]; SUFFICIENT GRACE for everyone to merit their salvation… So God does His part
2. With authority comes responsibility

By virtue of the fact that God has freely chosen to create humanity in His very Image; which is accomplished by gifting humanity ALONE, in all of creation; with a mind, intellect and FREEWILL; God who is and give perfect Love to us and expects the same perfect love in return be FREELY returned to Him.

Love to be perfect MUST be freely bestowed.

These GIFTS of mind, intellect and freewill exist in humanity alone [Isaiah 43 & & 21] are the reason for OUR existence and the very tools granted that we MIGHT rightly use and apply them.

The KEY word being “MIGHT”, as in We can choose to know, love and serve God; and we CAN also choose to hate, despise and disobey God.

LIFE is a God TEST; not just a part of our life, but ALL of it, in sum and in total. From beginning to our end.

Sir.15: 17 "Before a man are life and death, and whichever he chooses will be given to him"

So God fulfills His Part and expect US to fulfill ours. = Divine Justice!

I suppose the flipside is also difficult for me to understand. That is, the Catholic belief that one may lead a terrible life but at the last moment repent and thus be saved. This, I admit, is more akin to Jewish teaching since we know that G-d makes “white as snow” all our sins if only we turn away from them. But still, I find it a bit disconcerting that a virtuous person for most of their life may wind up going to hell whereas a terrible person may ultimately be saved at the very last moment. I find this merciful in the second instance, but not so much either merciful or just in the first instance.

Again in brief; it is because God IS on OUR side

God’s Mercy is Greater than His Justice

1Tim.2 Verses 3 to 5 “This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,”

Perhaps even more profound is this FACT

GOD WILL, BECAUSE GOD MUST PASS FINAL JUDGMENT UPON EACH OF US

NOT BASED ON WHAT WE CHOOSE TO ACCEPT, BELIEVE & LIVE

RATHER IT WILL BE ON WHAT HE, GOD, HAS MADE POSSIBLE FOR EACH OF US

TO KNOW, TO ACCEPT AND TO LIVE:thumbsup:

Continued Blessings my friend,

Patrick

 

[PJM]

MB, that’s not much different from your own Jewish faith is it? Don’t you believe that a life of virtue can be undone by grave sin at the end?

Also, there is no such thing as “slipping up” and committing a mortal sin. There are 3 aspects or components necessary to commit one.

• A grave matter
• Full Knowledge that it is.
• Willful commission

To commit a mortal sin you have to intend to do so.

VERY TRUE but Not absolutely;

There ARE those actions that are sooooo evil that everyone CAN, Should and Ought to know that they ARE gravely sinful. Theologically termed “intrinsic evils”

Heb.8: 10 “This is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Jer.31: 33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it upon their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people”

A few examples of this are

Murder
Abortion
Slander
Greed
[often] Gossip

God Bless you, Good post!

Patrick

 

[acarlson]

VERY TRUE but Not absolutely;

There ARE those actions that are sooooo evil that everyone CAN, Should and Ought to know that they ARE gravely sinful. Theologically termed “intrinsic evils”

Heb.8: 10 “This is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Jer.31: 33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it upon their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people”

A few examples of this are

Murder
Abortion
Slander
Greed
[often] Gossip

God Bless you, Good post!

Patrick

Buuuut there’s always the aspect of deliberate and complete consent. Which can be known only by the individual and God. Indeed, one CHOOSES to commit mortal sin. It’s a necessity.

 

[PJM]

Buuuut there’s always the aspect of deliberate and complete consent. Which can be known only by the individual and God. Indeed, one CHOOSES to commit mortal sin. It’s a necessity.

Intrinsic Evil
HTTP://catholicity.wikia.com/WIKI/INTRINSIC_EVIL

“Intrinsic evil is the opposite of extrinsic evil: It is an act which is naturally (intrinsically) evil, because the act itself is absolutely contrary to reason, to nature, and to God.[1]Intrinsic evil can never be done, for it can never be good, because good can never be good and evil at the same time.[2] For example: A truth is true. What is true is good. A lie is an untrue or false statement made with the intent to deceive. The truth cannot be true (good) and false (evil) at the same time. A lie is never true but is always false, for it is intrisincally untrue and deceptive. Hence, a lie is an intrinsic evil”

Heb.8: 10 “This is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Jer.31: 33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it upon their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people”

My friend, I do not mean to be argumentative; but please do yourself a favor and look up and read these three sites

[1] Intrinsic Evil and the Moral Object

[2] Five Non-Negotiables

[2] What Is An Intrinsic Evil? | Catholic Parents OnLine

Then go Our Catechism and please read numbers

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

1853
2352
2357
2380
2271
2272
2322
2320
2324

Examples of Intrinsic Evil

Based on Church teachings, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Encyclicals of the Pope, and issue papers from the Office of the Doctrine of the Faith, the following concern actions that are intrinsically evil and must never be promoted by the law. This is not an exclusive list, but here for example only:

1. Abortion
2. Adultery
3. Arbitrary Imprisonment
4. Bodily Mutilation
5. Calumny
6. Embryonic Stem Cell Research
7. Euthanasia
8. Homosexual “Marriage”
9. Human Cloning
10. Injustice to Foreigners
11. Injustice to Orphans and Widows
12. Injustice Against the Wage-Earner
13. Lying
14. Masturbation
15. Mental Torture
16. Murder
17. Pedophilia Acts
18. Physical Torture
19. Polygamy
20. Pornography Production
21. Pornography Use
22. Prostitution
23. Racism
24. Rape
25. Sex with Animals
26. Sexual Abuse
27. Slavery
28. Sodomy
29. Usury
30. Using Artificial Contraception
31. War of Aggression

Reference Resources:

CCC = Catechism of the Catholic Church
CPL = Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, Doctrinal Notes on Some Questions Regarding the Participation of Catholics in Political Life
CRF = Pontifical Council for the Family, Charter of the Rights of the Family
EV = John Paul II, Evangelium Vitae, (the Gospe1 of Life)
RHL = Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Instruction on Respect for Human Life in Its Origin and on the Dignity of Procreation
UHP = Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Considerations Regarding Proposals to Give Legal Recognition to Unions between Homosexual Persons
WRHC = Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, Worthiness to Receive Holy Communion, General Principles
Catholic Online – www.catholic.org END QUOTES

 

[Reuben_J]

One thing that I have thought about regarding Catholic teaching (I wouldn’t say it “doesn’t make sense” since I know it does within Catholic doctrine) is the idea that one may lead a virtuous life but “slip up” at the very end by committing a mortal sin for which one does not seek repentance and thus be condemned to hell. Why wouldn’t G-d consider the TOTALITY of a person’s life rather than so severely penalize them for a mortal sin which stands in opposition to the good features of the rest of their life? Isn’t this more just?

I suppose the flipside is also difficult for me to understand. That is, the Catholic belief that one may lead a terrible life but at the last moment repent and thus be saved. This, I admit, is more akin to Jewish teaching since we know that G-d makes “white as snow” all our sins if only we turn away from them. But still, I find it a bit disconcerting that a virtuous person for most of their life may wind up going to hell whereas a terrible person may ultimately be saved at the very last moment. I find this merciful in the second instance, but not so much either merciful or just in the first instance.

This is also difficult for Christians in general (not just Catholics) to accept because we see it from our human reasoning, not God.

It is about the love of God - and how He wants us to ‘come back’ to Him. That is what repentance is all about and which God wants of us - turning back to Him.

Thus Jesus tell about a parable of the worker who came at the eleventh and got the same pay at the end of the day as those who came in the early morning. He also says that the last can be first, and the first last.

It is His to decide as to how He pays the workers. It would be no use to Him if a worker came in the morning but some time during the day runs away with His property. His priority seems to be the one who work till the end of the day and work accordingly.

Quite different from us human masters as we usually pay by the hour.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

One thing that I have thought about regarding Catholic teaching (I wouldn’t say it “doesn’t make sense” since I know it does within Catholic doctrine) is the idea that one may lead a virtuous life but “slip up” at the very end by committing a mortal sin for which one does not seek repentance and thus be condemned to hell. Why wouldn’t G-d consider the TOTALITY of a person’s life rather than so severely penalize them for a mortal sin which stands in opposition to the good features of the rest of their life? Isn’t this more just?
.

Yeah, theoretically that can happen.

But if we know God, love God and serve God, we repent right away after sinning. Then do it perfectly in the Sacrament of confession as soon as possible. But since God is not bound to sacraments, we still go to heaven if we die before going to confession since we repented n our hearts to him.

So, that scenario you pointed out is likely not occurring very often imo.

 

[Expatreprocedit]

There are several things about the teaching on papal infallibility that don’t make sense to me, but this is the most problematic: the uncertainty at the highest levels of the Catholic magisterium as to which papal proclamations are infallible. Some say two, the IC and the Assumption, some include JPII’s proclamation against ordination of women, some include Humanae Vitae, and the quasi-official “relatio” of the Vatican I proclamation by Bishop Gasser shortly after VI states that there are “hundreds” of infallible papal proclamations throughout church history. If a papal proclamation is the highest exercise of magisterial authority, and it defines truths essential to the Faith, it would seem to me to be the highest priority to determine which papal proclamations are infallible. Yet most Catholics, including Catholic apologists, teachers, clergy and bishops seem profoundly uninterested in the question. The only important thing, it seems for Catholics, is to believe in papal infallibility, not in what has actually been “infallibly” proclaimed (other than the IC and the Assumption). As a former RC I know once said, when it comes to papal infallibility, Catholics seem to want to sell the sizzle, not the steak.

 

[PJM]

There are several things about the teaching on papal infallibility that don’t make sense to me, but this is the most problematic: the uncertainty at the highest levels of the Catholic magisterium as to which papal proclamations are infallible. Some say two, the IC and the Assumption, some include JPII’s proclamation against ordination of women, some include Humanae Vitae, and the quasi-official “relatio” of the Vatican I proclamation by Bishop Gasser shortly after VI states that there are “hundreds” of infallible papal proclamations throughout church history. If a papal proclamation is the highest exercise of magisterial authority, and it defines truths essential to the Faith, it would seem to me to be the highest priority to determine which papal proclamations are infallible. Yet most Catholics, including Catholic apologists, teachers, clergy and bishops seem profoundly uninterested in the question. The only important thing, it seems for Catholics, is to believe in papal infallibility, not in what has actually been “infallibly” proclaimed (other than the IC and the Assumption). As a former RC I know once said, when it comes to papal infallibility, Catholics seem to want to sell the sizzle, not the steak.

“Infallibility” is not clearly understood by a great many, Catholics and non-Catholics alike.

For ANY proclamation to be INFALLIBE; each of the following conditions must be met.

May I suggest you read the following?

canonlawmadeeasy.com/2011/02/17/when-does-the-pope-speak-infallibly/

BOOK III : THE TEACHING OFFICE OF THE CHURCH

**Can. 748 §**1 All are bound to seek the truth in the matters which concern God and his Church; when they have found it, then by divine law they are bound, and they have the right, to embrace and keep it.

§2 It is never lawful for anyone to force others to embrace the catholic faith against their conscience.

Can. 749 §1 In virtue of his office the Supreme Pontiff is infallible in his teaching when, as chief Shepherd and Teacher of all Christ’s faithful, with the duty of strengthening his brethren in the faith, he proclaims by definitive act a doctrine to be held concerning faith or morals.

§2 The College of Bishops also possesses infallibility in its teaching when the Bishops, gathered together in in Ecumenical Council and exercising their magisterium as teachers and judges of faith and morals, definitivelydeclare for the universal Church a doctrine to be held concerning faith or morals; likewise, when the Bishops, dispersed throughout the world but maintaining the bond of union among themselves and with the successor of Peter, together with the same Roman Pontiff authentically teach matters of faith or morals, and are agreed that a particular teaching is definitively to be held.

§3 No doctrine is understood to be infallibly defined unless this is manifestly demonstrated

HOWEVER: The issue of Infallibility is NOT the only mandate for the teaching authority of the RCC & it’s Magisterium.

Can. 750 §1. A person must believe with divine and Catholic faith all those things contained in the word of God, written or handed on, that is, in the one deposit of faith entrusted to the Church, and at the same time proposed as divinely revealed either by the solemn magisterium of the Church or by its ordinary and universal magisterium which is manifested by the common adherence of the Christian faithful under the leadership of the sacred magisterium; therefore all are bound to avoid any doctrines whatsoever contrary to them.

§2.** Each and every thing which is proposed definitively by the magisterium of the Church concerning the doctrine of faith and morals, that is, each and every thing which is required to safeguard reverently and to expound faithfully the same deposit of faith, is also to be firmly embraced and retained; therefore, one who rejects those propositions which are to be held definitively is opposed to the doctrine of the Catholic Church.**

Can. 751 Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.

Can. 752** Although not an assent of faith, a religious submission of the intellect and will must be given to a doctrine which the Supreme Pontiff or the college of bishops declares concerning faith or morals when they exercise the authentic magisterium, even if they do not intend to proclaim it by definitive act; therefore, the Christian faithful are to take care to avoid those things which do not agree with it.**

Can. 753 Although the bishops who are in communion with the head and members of the college, whether individually or joined together in conferences of bishops or in particular councils, do not possess infallibility in teaching, they are authentic teachers and instructors of the faith for the Christian faithful entrusted to their care; the Christian faithful are bound to adhere with religious submission of mind to the authentic magisterium of their bishops.

Can. 754 All the Christian faithful are obliged to observe the constitutions and decrees which the legitimate authority of the Church issues in order to propose doctrine and to proscribe erroneous opinions, particularly those which the Roman Pontiff or the college of bishops puts forth. END QUOTES

God Bless you, you made a very good point!
Patrick

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

PJM, whether the bar is high to declare something infallible or not it doesn’t answer Expatreprocedit’s valid question as to what is or is not infallible (and why apologists tend to get mushmouthed when the topic comes up).

It would be similar to this:

Person 1: Where can I find a list of United States federal laws?
Person 2: You don’t understand how difficult it is for a bill to become a law. It has to be introduced to The House of Representatives, and if it survives committee it’s put up for a vote. If it passes it’s then introduced to the U.S. Senate, and it goes through committee again and possibly put up for a vote. And if that passes it’s then passed onto the President. He can sign it and it becomes a law or he can veto it. If it’s vetoed it then gets sent back to the House and Senate for another vote. If both chambers pass the bill with a 2/3 majority then the veto is overidden and the bill becomes a law. **
Person 1: Yes, it’s difficult. So where can I find a list of United States federal laws?

*** Obviously it’s a bit more complicated than that, but it’s accurate enough for an analogy.*

So taking into consideration all the many steps needed for something to be declared infallible, and understanding that there are things in the future that may be declared infallible but haven’t gone through the needed steps yet, where can one find a list of all of the teachings that are certified infallible?

 

[lanman87]

Well, I’m still trying to figure a bunch of things out. My first response to what doesn’t make since to me is the Catholic Doctrine of Grace. I think I understand the doctrine but I don’t understand how Catholics come to the conclusion that initial grace is a free gift but grace received later (actual or habitual? the terminology is confusing) is merited.

 

[PJM]

PJM, whether the bar is high to declare something infallible or not it doesn’t answer Expatreprocedit’s valid question as to what is or is not infallible (and why apologists tend to get mushmouthed when the topic comes up).

It would be similar to this:

Person 1: Where can I find a list of United States federal laws?
Person 2: You don’t understand how difficult it is for a bill to become a law. It has to be introduced to The House of Representatives, and if it survives committee it’s put up for a vote. If it passes it’s then introduced to the U.S. Senate, and it goes through committee again and possibly put up for a vote. And if that passes it’s then passed onto the President. He can sign it and it becomes a law or he can veto it. If it’s vetoed it then gets sent back to the House and Senate for another vote. If both chambers pass the bill with a 2/3 majority then the veto is overidden and the bill becomes a law. **
Person 1: Yes, it’s difficult. So where can I find a list of United States federal laws?

*** Obviously it’s a bit more complicated than that, but it’s accurate enough for an analogy.*

So taking into consideration all the many steps needed for something to be declared infallible, and understanding that there are things in the future that may be declared infallible but haven’t gone through the needed steps yet, where can one find a list of all of the teachings that are certified infallible?

CORRECT

BUT you’re missing the point I TRIED to make

There is VERY MUCH besides the limited number of Infallible pronouncements that ALSO MUST and Do BIND Catholics and Christians to obedience and acceptance of AT LEAST mind and will. THAT was the point I was making.

So the emphasis on Infallibility is important; BUT NOT the only mandates of Faith beliefs. Amen!

GBY

BTW: HOW is it you do not belief in GOD? Seems illogical to me.

Patrick

 

[PJM]

Well, I’m still trying to figure a bunch of things out. My first response to what doesn’t make since to me is the Catholic Doctrine of Grace. I think I understand the doctrine but I don’t understand how Catholics come to the conclusion that initial grace is a free gift but grace received later (actual or habitual? the terminology is confusing) is merited.

PERHAPS THIS WILL HELP?

[1] ALL Grace is always a FREE GIFT FROM GOD

[2] Grace is OFFERED, not forced [even Sacramental -actual grace]

[3] All grace is some sense is conditional on God’s Offer and our degree of cooperation with THAT offer. Grace can be rejected, partially accepted, fully or in-part applied and accepted

[4] That there are many different types of grace is a theological issue; ALL grace aims to AID ones salvation in some manner. So the type is less significant than is the Offer and its Full and Right acceptance

FROM FR. HARDON’S CATHOLIC DICTIONARY

GRACE. In biblical language the condescension or benevolence (Greek charis) shown by God toward the human race; it is also the unmerited gift proceeding from this benevolent disposition. Grace, therefore, is a totally gratuitous gift on which man has absolutely no claim. Where on occasion the Scriptures speak of grace as pleasing charm or thanks for favors received, this is a derived and not primary use of the term.

As the Church has come to explain the meaning of grace, it refers to something more than the gifts of nature, such as creation or the blessings of bodily health. Grace is the supernatural gift that God, of his free benevolence, bestows on rational creatures for their eternal salvation. The gifts of grace are essentially supernatural. They surpass the being, powers, and claims of created nature, namely sanctifying grace, the infused virtues, the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and actual grace. They are the indispensable means necessary to reach the beatific vision. In a secondary sense, grace also includes such blessings as the miraculous gifts of prophecy or healing, or the preternatural gifts of freedom from concupiscence.

The essence of grace, properly so called, is its gratuity, since no creature has a right to the beatific vision, and its finality or purpose is to lead one to eternal life. (Etym. Latin gratia, favor; a gift freely given.) See also ACTUAL GRACE, EFFICACIOUS GRACE, HABITUAL GRACE, JUSTIFYING GRACE, SACRAMENTAL GRACE, SANCTIFYING GRACE, SUFFICIENT GRACE

Here is the site for anyone wishing to look these up:

therealpresence.org/dictionary/adict.htm

GBY

Patrick

 

[lanman87]

PERHAPS THIS WILL HELP?

[1] ALL Grace is always a FREE GIFT FROM GOD

[2] Grace is OFFERED, not forced [even Sacramental -actual grace]

[3] All grace is some sense is conditional on God’s Offer and our degree of cooperation with THAT offer. Grace can be rejected, partially accepted, fully or in-part applied and accepted

[4] That there are many different types of grace is a theological issue; ALL grace aims to AID ones salvation in some manner. So the type is less significant than is the Offer and its Full and Right acceptance

Okay, I have said in other places that I didn’t come here to debate and I haven’t. This is a sincere comment/question. I’m writing this so you can get where I’m coming from and help me understand.

If something is free, then why do you have to do things to get it? For instance, if someone tells me they are going to give me $1,000 and all I have to do is wash their car, then they aren’t really giving me anything. They are just paying me really really well to wash their car.

In my exploration of Catholicism this has been my biggest roadblock. The Bible calls grace, eternal life, justification and even righteousness a gift of God. It also says over and over again that faith/belief are how you receive these gifts.

This is a silly analogy, but if grace was a birthday present then faith is me reaching out and taking the present from my Father’s hands. Then my Father says, “that is just the beginning, this gift never runs out, it is always available for you and I will give you even more than you will ever need. I’m not giving it to you because of what you do, I’m giving it to you because you are my child and I love you and I will take care of you”

To keep the father son analogy going, Catholicism looks like this to me. My Father offers me a gift and I accept it. Then he says, “I have plenty more of that gift for you but in order to get it you have to do your chores. Every time you make the bed I’ll give you some more and when you take out the garbage I’ll give you some and so on”. The initial gift was free but the rest wasn’t a gift at all, but a payment for doing chores.

I don’t mean to be disrespectful in comparing the sacraments to “chores” but that is the only analogy I could think of on short notice.

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

CORRECT

BUT you’re missing the point I TRIED to make

There is VERY MUCH besides the limited number of Infallible pronouncements that ALSO MUST and Do BIND Catholics and Christians to obedience and acceptance of AT LEAST mind and will. THAT was the point I was making.

So the emphasis on Infallibility is important; BUT NOT the only mandates of Faith beliefs. Amen!

GBY

But that is not the answer to Expatreprocedit’s question. He wanted a list of infallible items from the Church, and you gave the steps by which an item can be declared infallible.

You’re saying there is a definite process on how infallibility is determined, so it should be very easy to list what is infallible.

Going back to my analogy from the last post:

Person 1: Yes, it’s difficult. So where can I find a list of United States federal laws?
Person 2: But there are more things that a citizen must abide by, including local and state laws and directives from the federal executive branch.
Person 1: That’s understood. So now can I get a list of United States federal laws?

BTW: HOW is it you do not belief in GOD? Seems illogical to me.

Before we get to other questions let’s get an answer to the first question as to what items are infallible. With a detailed process in place to state what is (which you provided) there should be no problem.

 

[PJM]

QUOTE=lanman87;14618726]Okay, I have said in other places that I didn’t come here to debate and I haven’t. This is a sincere comment/question. I’m writing this so you can get where I’m coming from and help me understand.

If something is free, then why do you have to do things to get it? For instance, if someone tells me they are going to give me $1,000 and all I have to do is wash their car, then they aren’t really giving me anything. They are just paying me really, really well to wash their car.

MY REPLY WILL BE IN MULTIPLE POST

My FRIEND, what I think you’re missing is that NOT “all” forms of grace require that we “do something” GRACE.

“In biblical language the condescension shown by God toward the human race; is also the unmerited gift proceeding from this benevolent disposition.** Grace, therefore, is a totally gratuitous gift on which man has absolutely no claim.** Where on occasion the Scriptures speak of grace as pleasing charm or thanks for favors received, this is a derived and not primary use of the term”

“Grace is the supernatural gift that God, of his free benevolence, bestows on rational creatures for their eternal salvation. The gifts of grace are essentially supernatural. They surpass the being, powers, and claims of created nature, namely sanctifying grace, the infused virtues, the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and actual grace.** They are the indispensable means necessary to reach the beatific vision**.

“The essence of grace, properly so called, is its gratuity, since no creature has a right to the beatific vision, and its finality or purpose is to lead one to eternal life” END QUOTES

Actual Grace is an example of which I speak: FROM Fr Hardon’s Catholic Dictionary
**
“ACTUAL GRACE. Temporary supernatural intervention by God to enlighten the mind or strengthen the will to perform supernatural actions that lead to heaven. Actual grace is therefore a transient divine assistance to enable man to obtain, retain, or grow in supernatural grace and the life of God” …. It only requires our willing acceptance of it.**

“EFFICACIOUS GRACE. The actual grace to which free consent is given by the will so that the grace produces its divinely intended effect” …. Again ONLY requires our willing acceptance as God prohibits Himself from FORCING salvation upon anyone.

END PART 1 of 3
SEE Next POST

 

[PJM]

PART 2 of 3 REPLY

As opposed to for example

“SANCTIFYING GRACE. The supernatural state of being infused by God, which permanently inheres in the soul. It is a vital principle of the supernatural life, as the rational soul is the vital principle of a human being’s natural life. It is not a substance but a real quality that becomes part of the soul substance. Although commonly associated with the possession of the virtue of charity, sanctifying grace is yet distinct from this virtue. Charity, rather, belongs to the will, whereas sanctifying grace belongs to the whole soul, mind, will, and affections. It is called sanctifying grace because it makes holy those who possess the gift by giving them a participation in the divine life. It is zoē (life), which Christ taught that he has in common with the Father and which those who are in the state of grace share.”

In my exploration of Catholicism this has been my biggest roadblock. The Bible calls grace, eternal life, justification and even righteousness a gift of God. It also says over and over again that faith/belief are how you receive these gifts.

Biblically the term grace is used to mean the END, more so than the POSSIBLE means. It does not differentiate between the various types, conditions and applications; rather the bible looks at the POSSIBLE end results of Gods OFFER and man’s freewill acceptance of grace.

**“Faith and Belief” are but HOW man chooses, man’s affirmation to accept God’s FREE Offer of His Grace. It is essentially simply saying “YES” to God. **

And yet, to ME [personally], the most amazing, the most interesting fact revolves around Sacramental Grace.

“SACRAMENTAL GRACE. The grace conferred by the valid and fruitful reception of the sacraments. It may be one or more of several kinds: 1. sanctifying grace is communicated in baptism, penance and in anointing of the sick when needed; 2. sanctifying grace is always increased when a sacrament is received in the state of grace; 3. actual grace is given by all the sacraments, either actually at the time of reception or also by title as a person needs divine help; 4. the sacramental character is indelibly imprinted on the soul in baptism, confirmation, and the priesthood; and 5. a distinctive sacramental grace is imparted by each of the seven sacraments, corresponding to their respective purpose in the supernatural life of the soul”

Here’s God’s free gift is permitted by GOD to be initiated by His created humanity; and the amount of Grace OFFERED through each of the seven sacraments in not only unique to THAT Sacrament; it is dependent upon the Priest bestowing the Sacrament; the disposition of the one receiving it [by proxy in infant Baptism], and OF COURSE God’s infallible and Perfect judgement of same. But just as in works of charity WE ARE seeking grace; so too in and through the Sacraments it is WE who START the grace process.

There is my friend, no greater reason to be an informed and fully practicing Catholic, than the Seven Sacraments and there POSSIBLE, and God intended effects upon our personal salvation.

The Eucharist is Jesus Himself in Person; Sacramental Confession is the ONLY truly known; God approved method for sin forgiveness. …… And BOTH are unique to Catholicism [valid & licit] and Eastern Orthodoxy [valid].

This is a silly analogy, but if grace was a birthday present then faith is me reaching out and taking the present from my Father’s hands. Then my Father says, “that is just the beginning, this gift never runs out, it is always available for you and I will give you even more than you will ever need. I’m not giving it to you because of what you do, I’m giving it to you because you are my child and I love you and I will take care of you”

Grace while a free gift, is NOT a gift without conditions; without man’s FREEWILL acceptance; and as noted above, in Sacramental Grace it is conditional on our SEEKING it. Which takes it out of the above birthday gift example. …. “Wanting” and “seeking” are NOT the same thing.

Further there is no Godly guarantee that God HAS TO offer more [abundant] grace than the absolutely necessary minimum amount of grace that every Soul COULD if disposed to do so by their FREEWILL, to merit their own individual salvation, which is evidenced by the existence of HELL. God’s OFFER of Grace can always be rejected, accepted in part and even misapplied.

To keep the father son analogy going, Catholicism looks like this to me. My Father offers me a gift and I accept it. Then he says, “I have plenty more of that gift for you but in order to get it you have to do your chores. Every time you make the bed I’ll give you some more and when you take out the garbage I’ll give you some and so on”. The initial gift was free but the rest wasn’t a gift at all, but a payment for doing chores.

My friend, I pray what I have shared above has pointed out the errors of this line of thought? … While ALL grace is FREE in the sense that man cannot in ANY way TRULY “deserve” it; ALL grace is still an OFFER, and a conditional offer at that.

And there is a very good, a precise reason for this; it being that in ALL of creations BILLIONS of created things; only One, only humanity is CREATED in the very image and likeness of our God. Genesis 1:26-27

ONLY humanity among ALL living THINGS is emulated by our GOD with a mind, intellect and freewill which are permanently ATTACHED to the human Soul. Because Man ALONE is enabled to know, to love, to serve and to obey God; or to freely choose to hate, to despise and disobey Him; MAN assumes a GRAVE MORAL obligation suitable to his capabilities.

END OF PT 2 of 3

SEE NEXT POST

 

[PJM]

Part 3 of 3

Isa.43: 7 every one who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made." & [21] the people whom I formed for myself that they might declare my praise”

Grace is as far from predestination [which BTW biblically ONLY means pre-KNOWLEDGE OF our choices], as “the East is from the West.” So grace cannot even by GOD be FORCED upon anyone. It HAS to be freely accepted and rightly applied.
Salvations is GOD”S Will BUT man’s freewill choice. Life is the God Test. That God permits certain graces to be initiated by man is because of the fact that in emulation of God; we are ABLE to choose salvation for ourselves [WITH God’s permission and gifts].

AMEN

God Bless you my friend,
Patrick

 

[PJM]

But that is not the answer to Expatreprocedit’s question. He wanted a list of infallible items from the Church, and you gave the steps by which an item can be declared infallible.

It was and is a LOADED question, as I {ME HERE] suspect was the point he was making;

PLEASE see this site:

catholicism - List of papal teachings considered infallible - Christianity Stack Exchange

You’re saying there is a definite process on how infallibility is determined, so it should be very easy to list what is infallible.

My friend you’re having TOO MUCH fun with this serious matter.

NOT so, as I [ME HERE] suspect you also know. Which is WHY I replied as I did.

The term “infallibility” is a “recent” theological term. EVERYTHING Jesus taught and the RCC shares AS BEING WHAT JESUS TAUGHT is defacto: “Infallible”.

Going back to my analogy from the last post:

Person 1: Yes, it’s difficult. So where can I find a list of United States federal laws?
Person 2: But there are more things that a citizen must abide by, including local and state laws and directives from the federal executive branch.
Person 1: That’s understood. So now can I get a list of United States federal laws?

Before we get to other questions let’s get an answer to the first question as to what items are infallible. With a detailed process in place to state what is (which you provided) there should be no problem.

Over a 2,000 year history and the recent addition of theological terminology; there is NO LIST; BUT there ARE guidelines, which I shared in the POST your referencing.

I’m happy to address and other serious questions; BUT because I HAVE previously demonstrated that “infallibility” ALONE is NOT the ONLY binding condition for Souls to HAVE to obey and accept., I consider THIS topic [infallibility] to be concluded. Even I have only so much time to invest

God Bless you

Patrick

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Seems like Jesus always gave instructions.

Told people to do stuff…

Matthew 12:13 English Standard Version
Then he said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” And the man stretched it out, and it was restored, healthy like the other…

John 9:7 New Living Translation
He told him, “Go wash yourself in the pool of Siloam” (Siloam means “sent”). So the man went and washed and came back seeing!

So yeah, God gives us these free gifts but wants us to get off the sidelines, drop the clipboard and get involved.