What every Catholic should know?

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wmscott said:
Some were controversies, Some were heresies, and Some were outright attacks against Christianity. In the end though, you can not deny that the Catholic Church was faithfully protecting and preserving the Christian faith as Christ would want us to do.
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That does not change the fact that the statement I was responding to was an incorrect statement. You can’t very well complain about others being inaccurate, be inaccurate yourself in the process, and expect to be taken seriously.
Sites like these do stir one’s ire because of the blatant lies and falsehoods. They call themselves Christians and then take the Holy words of our Lord and Savior and twist and pervert them to attack a Christian Church. How Christian is that? I am at loss here,why wouldn’t you want someone to expose lies and falsehoods? Please tell me you would want us to just turn a blind eye to this? If I have misinterpreted your thoughts here then I apologize. Peace.
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What I was attempting to convey was a two-fold message.

First, it is of the utmost importance to treat the person on the other side of the table with respect when you are performing apologetics even if they are not respectful of you. I know this is a difficult task and no one is perfect at it. But it is essential. I ask, was Jesus ever disrespectful to those who disagreed with him?

Second, you must play by the same rules that you insist the other party play by. I ask, did Jesus every ask others to play by rules he broke? It is mentioned on this thread (definitely once and I think more) that Catholics should insist Protestants stick to one topic and not throw out things unrelated to that topic. However, nothing is said of Catholics doing this same thing. Very often I’ll be discussing some bit of Theological divergence with a Catholic when they (or another Catholic) throw out something completely unrelated like it’s some kind of theological trump card (the 39,000 denomination thing is a biggie for this). For example, I’ll be discussing the doctrine of Real Presence and it’s only a matter of time before some Catholic says something like which of the 39,000 Protestant doctrines on the matter would you like me to accept. That is playing by different rules then you want the other party to play by and that is disingenuous. I was pointing out that the person who authored the e-mail was doing this.

I have re-read my original post on this thread and do not see anything in there that says Catholics should not defend Catholicism from these attacks. Can you please either point out where I said that or apologize for reading things into my posts which simply are not there?
 
Drawmack said:
First, it is of the utmost importance to treat the person on the other side of the table with respect when you are performing apologetics even if they are not respectful of you. I know this is a difficult task and no one is perfect at it. But it is essential. I ask, was Jesus ever disrespectful to those who disagreed with him?

Second, you must play by the same rules that you insist the other party play by. I ask, did Jesus every ask others to play by rules he broke? It is mentioned on this thread (definitely once and I think more) that Catholics should insist Protestants stick to one topic and not throw out things unrelated to that topic. However, nothing is said of Catholics doing this same thing. Very often I’ll be discussing some bit of Theological divergence with a Catholic when they (or another Catholic) throw out something completely unrelated like it’s some kind of theological trump card (the 39,000 denomination thing is a biggie for this). For example, I’ll be discussing the doctrine of Real Presence and it’s only a matter of time before some Catholic says something like which of the 39,000 Protestant doctrines on the matter would you like me to accept. That is playing by different rules then you want the other party to play by and that is disingenuous. I was pointing out that the person who authored the e-mail was doing this.

I have re-read my original post on this thread and do not see anything in there that says Catholics should not defend Catholicism from these attacks. Can you please either point out where I said that or apologize for reading things into my posts which simply are not there?
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First paragraph - AMEN! AMEN! and AMEN!

Second paragraph – I was one (or the one) who mentioned keeping to one topic. I am not a very active member of this board, but the board I used to belong to was vigilant about keeping on target – by “both sides” of the debate. Otherwise, it always quickly degenerated into chaos with multiple people jumping in to answer various sub-topics in the same thread.

Regarding the 30K+ denominations…again, I’m not active on this board and cannot (will not) defend how it’s used here. However, let me toss back at you a “pet peeve” of my own when trying to dialogue with those who were hell-bent on saving me…😊 (And since I don’t know you or your history on this board, pleased understand that I am not putting you into this category!)

But, you said “it’s only a matter of time before some Catholic says something like which of the 39,000 Protestant doctrines on the matter would you like me to accept.” In my experience, the person who is on the other side of the table will try to bait or cajole the Catholic and refuse to give their own beliefs, preferring only to throw out the flame-balls of anti-Catholic rhetoric they’ve memorized. When asked to clarify their position, it was exceedingly common to have them simply throw out a new allegation.

For our part, it makes it very difficult to know what the frame of reference is for that non-Catholic so we’ll ask them what denomination they belong to. Rather than answering us, they will insist that they are simply Christians. Hence, the retort is often, “which of the 39,000 Protestant denominations would you like me to accept?”

Again, I am not here to debate or deride. But, from our perspective, it helps greatly to know where the other person is coming from in order to try and figure out what their perspective is. For example, are they pre-trib or post-trib? Are they dunkers or dribblers or even from the sects that believe Baptism isn’t necessary for Salvation? Are they OSAS? Knowing where they’re coming from helps greatly in phrasing a cogent response.

Often their root belief system is easily discernable, but I have met a whole bunch of these flame-throwers who are all over the board when it comes to theology! :eek: When that is the case, it quickly becomes obvious that the person is only trying to argue for argument’s sake and there really isn’t much point in trying to have a dialogue with them.
 
Drawmack said:
The source which came up with the 39,000+ number that Catholics like to throw around applied the same, exact, metrics it used to come up with that number to the Catholic Church and came up with over 300 Catholic denominations. Hence, my original statement that this number comes from a disreputable source which almost arbitrarily determines what a denomination is. Why is it that everytime I point this out to Catholics they want to tell me that my number is wrong but continue to use theirs? I am simply pointing out that the 39,000 number is not trustworthy and demonstrating this by using the 300 number which we all know is wrong.
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Fair enough, but glittering generalities isn’t a good idea here. I never claimed that there were 39,000+ protestant denominations, even that sounds preposterous to me. I was just curious as to how the author of the article came up with the number of Catholic denominations, and your post mentioned it, so it was quoted.

I’m just curious as to the method used.
 
ATL_Granny said:
First paragraph - AMEN! AMEN! and AMEN!

Second paragraph – I was one (or the one) who mentioned keeping to one topic. I am not a very active member of this board, but the board I used to belong to was vigilant about keeping on target – by “both sides” of the debate. Otherwise, it always quickly degenerated into chaos with multiple people jumping in to answer various sub-topics in the same thread.

Regarding the 30K+ denominations…again, I’m not active on this board and cannot (will not) defend how it’s used here. However, let me toss back at you a “pet peeve” of my own when trying to dialogue with those who were hell-bent on saving me…😊 (And since I don’t know you or your history on this board, pleased understand that I am not putting you into this category!)

But, you said “it’s only a matter of time before some Catholic says something like which of the 39,000 Protestant doctrines on the matter would you like me to accept.” In my experience, the person who is on the other side of the table will try to bait or cajole the Catholic and refuse to give their own beliefs, preferring only to throw out the flame-balls of anti-Catholic rhetoric they’ve memorized. When asked to clarify their position, it was exceedingly common to have them simply throw out a new allegation.

For our part, it makes it very difficult to know what the frame of reference is for that non-Catholic so we’ll ask them what denomination they belong to. Rather than answering us, they will insist that they are simply Christians. Hence, the retort is often, “which of the 39,000 Protestant denominations would you like me to accept?”

Again, I am not here to debate or deride. But, from our perspective, it helps greatly to know where the other person is coming from in order to try and figure out what their perspective is. For example, are they pre-trib or post-trib? Are they dunkers or dribblers or even from the sects that believe Baptism isn’t necessary for Salvation? Are they OSAS? Knowing where they’re coming from helps greatly in phrasing a cogent response.

Often their root belief system is easily discernable, but I have met a whole bunch of these flame-throwers who are all over the board when it comes to theology! :eek: When that is the case, it quickly becomes obvious that the person is only trying to argue for argument’s sake and there really isn’t much point in trying to have a dialogue with them.
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In the cases you are talking about here I agree whole heartedly with throwing out a flame-ball just to shut them up. I do the same thing to people like that. However, my example was in the case where I am taking a stance for what I believe to be correct and a Catholic throws the number of Protestant denominations out as a trump card. It is not the only one used, just a ready example because it is one used in this thread. It is that type of trump cardiness (if I may coin a term) that I am speaking against. Regardless of the actual card being used.
 
ecedmondson said:
Fair enough, but glittering generalities isn’t a good idea here. I never claimed that there were 39,000+ protestant denominations, even that sounds preposterous to me. I was just curious as to how the author of the article came up with the number of Catholic denominations, and your post mentioned it, so it was quoted.

I’m just curious as to the method used.
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He splits by country, region, and many other things that have nothing to do with actually separating a denomination.
 
Drawmack said:
Did you read my post? I never said there were Catholic denominations and I never confused denominations and Rites. I simply pointed out that the source which claims there are over 39,000 Protestant denominations also claims there are over 300 Catholic denominations. I was talking of your source, I wasn’t saying anything for myself. Additionally – it’s something like 26 Rites in full communion with Rome.
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Yes I read it, I guess I just confused myself.
 
Drawmack said:
That does not change the fact that the statement I was responding to was an incorrect statement. You can’t very well complain about others being inaccurate, be inaccurate yourself in the process, and expect to be taken seriously.

What I was attempting to convey was a two-fold message.

First, it is of the utmost importance to treat the person on the other side of the table with respect when you are performing apologetics even if they are not respectful of you. I know this is a difficult task and no one is perfect at it. But it is essential. I ask, was Jesus ever disrespectful to those who disagreed with him?

Second, you must play by the same rules that you insist the other party play by. I ask, did Jesus every ask others to play by rules he broke? It is mentioned on this thread (definitely once and I think more) that Catholics should insist Protestants stick to one topic and not throw out things unrelated to that topic. However, nothing is said of Catholics doing this same thing. Very often I’ll be discussing some bit of Theological divergence with a Catholic when they (or another Catholic) throw out something completely unrelated like it’s some kind of theological trump card (the 39,000 denomination thing is a biggie for this). For example, I’ll be discussing the doctrine of Real Presence and it’s only a matter of time before some Catholic says something like which of the 39,000 Protestant doctrines on the matter would you like me to accept. That is playing by different rules then you want the other party to play by and that is disingenuous. I was pointing out that the person who authored the e-mail was doing this.

I have re-read my original post on this thread and do not see anything in there that says Catholics should not defend Catholicism from these attacks. Can you please either point out where I said that or apologize for reading things into my posts which simply are not there?
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As I closed out my statements I said “If I have misinterpreted your thoughts here then I apologize. Peace.”
 
Well, this subject, anti-catholicism can really hit a catholic deep down and quick.

I don’t want to write all that I feel as it could lead to a large reply… But I was once
one the other side of this issue. I was a very serious Southern Baptist. I knew of
some catholic christians in the area I lived in and was very concerned whether
they had “God’s Truth” as I felt it was.
I never said anything to them, but that was only because the opportunity didn’t come up between us.

I was lead to the catholic faith because of the bible and the verses which show that the non-catholic christian churches do not teach all of God’s revealed truths.

I found this out, when I was in my final year of the Seminary where I was preparing myself for the Ministry. I don’t know if you all have any kind of back ground in this confliction of doctrines but when one is in a church one is trying to fit in. One goes with the flow of the chruch because one actually believes, the elders of the chruch have found those same scriptures and had a knowledge of why they didn’t see it as the catholic church does.

I had a lot of questiions about what I had found written in the bible and when ever I would bring up one of these issues which the denomination seemed to skip over the scriptures which seemed to indicate that denomination was ignoring one would get the silent cold
stares in class without a proper answer. It was as though one just didn’t bring that up or
the professor would say there wasn’t time for him/her to get into that at the moment.

You might be totally surprised at how thin their foundation is when it comes to an all around knowledge of all of the scriptures. I am looking back now, over forty five years when this all happened and though my memory is weak on a lot of the details I can recall how some of it worked.

You have to realize that these non-catholic churches are different than the thought flow of the the basic catholic. They not only have total regard for the scriptures they “only” have the scriptures. They do not have any traditions or fathers of the church.

Personally it was the scriptures which lead me to catholicism more than any catholic person did. It was not a easy step for me. I was in the middle of what I had designed for the rest of my life when I was a seminary student. I had planned that for years and had worked at various difficult jobs, to get the money, was married to a wonderful non-catholic woman who was an expert piano player and would join with me in the ministry to do the music and to head the woman’s association of bible study for the children of the churches I would officate at. My whole life was planned out in the Baptist expression. And it was during my seminary studies that we went from line to line in the bible and we studied them in the languages the bible had been written in. But when we got to those famous
lines of the bible which support catholic views is where it grabbed my attention and would not let go.

I think there are many sincere men and woman who do not know that there is a church which actually has all of the bible thymes incorporated into their doctrines and does not skip over any and these non-catholic people need to be informed… They are constantly blinded to the catholic christian because of what they “think” the catholic thinks.
Most of them actually believe that catholic’s worish Mary, and knee down to statues,
call priest father in conflict with what Jesus taught …etc. .and this blinds them to the idea that catholic’s have truths they don’t… I think from my own point of view from my personal
experience that there is a way to get to them, but it has to be done with more of us informing them that there is “scriptures” which give foundation to the catholic way of devotion and thinking…

continued next page…
 
The scriptures is the key to getting to them… only in order to be able to present
the scriptures to them, is to find some way to have some kind of fellowship with them.

Possibly by not attacking their beliefs but sort of like " well I would like to hear what you have to say, as I am interested in your views from the bible." and then as they are presenting their reasons for you to join in with their church you can bring up the scriptures which show them the error of their thinking.

You have to know that the difference in what we believe is very much different than what they believe and in order to get into them the truths of the Faith you are going to have to deal with a few more issues than just the worish differences… There are some totally different doctrines between the catholic and non-catholic…

I could not ignore the fact that the denomination I was involved with (there were 17 different Baptist denominations at the time I was in one of them) would not answer my questions regarding what I had found in the bible and which it seemed to me that my church was not dealing with. They did not have any answer for the 6th chapter of John other than everything hindged on just “faith” as that is all one needs… so they kind of said… “don’t let that bother you”… The Baptist faith is rather simple. you either believe or you don’t.
And if you do believe you have all of the benefits of God. You are eternally secure in that you are one of God’s children and you do not have to be concerned as to whether you can understand all of the bible… but that with your faith alone, you are set for all eternity.
God will work out what you don’t understand… you don’t have to understand it, just believe it… etc…

Then the next step for you, is to go out and being others to Jesus, you are to be a witness for the purpose to bring into church “lost” people, invite them to church so they can hear the “word” and get saved… and that is all they need. Just have faith and that does not always mean "understanding all the truths of God’…

It is kind of like being caught up in a whirl pool… You realize you are lost… and you want to get in good with God… and you are told by these preachers. who can preach… and it can be very emotional and you get these feelings… and you want so bad to be saved from the hell fires… etc… and they are preaching out of the bible. and you join and you don’t want to lose what you got, so you can’t really go against all those people who seem to think of it in one way and they all think it… so you are really influenced by those “peers” of you with some real intense pressures.

The only way one is going to crack their shell… is to use the word of God… that is all they will accept as the means to correct them.

One day, I finally walked up to a priest, in our area out in a public gathering… some kind of town festival as he was wearing a priest black with white collar habit. I don’t like the fact that alot of them don’t wear them anymore… as the only reason I went up to him was because he was a priest and I just engaged him into polite conversation and we just passed the time, exchanged names… weather. etc… and I asked him, if he had some time where we could sit and talk. I was interested in his religious views etc… And we began to talk, he was six months older than me at that time and he was willing to take the time to talk. We talked, for seven years… I had different churches and was involved in many programs with children… and bible studies… etc… and I converted to the catholic faith
because he was able to take me through all of the sacraments within the scriptures and from there I have learned to lean on the letters of the Fathers of the church for more edifications.

When my wife learned that I was going to convert to the Faith. She could not accept it.
She divorced me and since our marriage vow was done in a church I always felt I could not remarry according to the word of God. For the past thirty five years I have lived alone in my life. I have done many things for the church, through programs of each parish I have been part of. I have been very lonely for many years from a companion… I found marriage to be a wonderful state of life… But I have my faith and I must do what I feel God wants me to do.

I do not normally mention my personal experience with anyone… who wants to hear it anyway… smile… but for this board… I think it is important for you younger catholics
(well younger than me more than likely) to know that converts from other faiths can be had and from my personal point of view I have found my relationship with God to be much richer in and through the Sacraments than I ever had the ten years I was a Baptist…
I think it is well worth any and all efforts to help to bring any other christan into the Catholic Church. Not to prove they are wrong or that we are correct but to help them
to have a more fuller and richer relationship with God.

There are other reasons… for this reaching out… to evanaglize… for the church…
I saw in the newspaper the other day… Pope Bendedict XVI proclamed that we
should use the internet to “reach out” to the lost and misinformed…

By the way, if you all like to read … do borrow Pope Bendedict XVI’s book on
Jesus … it is a wonderfully written book… so simple in form but the depth he
goes with each subject is endless for food for meditations…
 
Monte:

Thank you for your touching and enormously helpful response. There have been many who lost their family and their income in order to pursue God in the Catholic Church. What a source of inspiration that is to many of us!

I hope you decide to some day approach the Church for an annulment. It can be a source of healing and will then allow you to openly embrace the possibility of again having a life-mate.

In the meantime, know that your testimony is a wonderful testament to God’s mercy and Grace.
 
"When my wife learned that I was going to convert to the Faith. She could not accept it."

This is very sad, you gave up so much for the Faith. I very much appreciated your story. It shows that God works in mysterious ways. I would urge you to speak to your pastor and at least look into an annullment. It can be a very healing procedure. It goes back to the start of the marriage and examines if the conditions for a sacramental marriage were there when the vows were exchanged. My wife and I, before we were married spent seven weeks (1 day every week) as we went over the questionere the Marriage Tribunal sent us. She was granted an annulment and we were then free to marry in the church. This is just a thougt.
Thank you for sharing your story.
 
wmscott said:
As I closed out my statements I said “If I have misinterpreted your thoughts here then I apologize. Peace.”
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And, as I finished informing you that you had not only misinterpreted things but read things that were not present I asked for an apology and this is not sufficient or I wouldn’t have asked for one. That would be equivocal to the guys at the web-site we are discussing sticking a by line at the end that said if we misrepresented Catholic theology we are sorry – would you find that sufficient?
 
Drawmack said:
And, as I finished informing you that you had not only misinterpreted things but read things that were not present I asked for an apology and this is not sufficient or I wouldn’t have asked for one. That would be equivocal to the guys at the web-site we are discussing sticking a by line at the end that said if we misrepresented Catholic theology we are sorry – would you find that sufficient?
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Your know what…… Peace of Christ be with you. 🙂
 
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