What evidence is there that Jews used the Deuterocanon?

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Hello,

A very learned and intelligent Protestant I’m debating says that the earliest manuscripts of the Septuagint are from after the time of Christ, and that Philo and Josephus used an earlier Septuagint manuscript and yet neither of them accepted the Deuterocanon. Is there any historical evidence that before or at the time of Christ Jews used the Deuterocanon?
 
The Dead See Scrolls contained, I believe, 6 of the 7 books of the Deutero’s.

What’s so comforting about this is that the DSS’s weren’t discovered until around 1950. So Catholics claimed the Deutero’s were used by the Jews simply from tradition… only to have tradition backed up by archaeological evidence!
 
Three. Tobit, Sirach (Ecclesiasticus), and Baruch (Letter to Jeremiah) were in the DSS.
 
I don’t think that Jewish scholars deny that these DC books were contained within the Septuagent. These books are still used and studied by Jews today, they were simply omitted from their cannon when the cannon was closed/officially determined in the early 2nd century on the basis that they were not included in the palestinian cannon which included only books written in Hebrew.

Interestingly, Macaabees is the only book which the feastival of Hannukah is noted (feast of the dedication of the temple) and yet we see/read of Jesus celebrating that holiday in the gospels.

In addition we see discussion of these books in the early years of the Church - so they were acknoweldged as being considered cannonical (or at least debated -which must have been based upon their inclusion in some Jewish compliation of cannon - eg. the septuagent).

Finally - there are quotes in the NT which while not directly to the DC books, include concepts which clearly come from the DC books.

Read Wisdom Chapter 2 for the clearest description of Christ and his tortuous death contained in any prophetic book (including Isaiah 53) and “know” that this is inspired word of God.

Blessings,

Brian
 
There is so much misinformation on some of these fundamentalists sites that shows either they are just passing bad information without even discovering on their own the historical facts about the Deuteros or they are lying. I find one is as bad as the other.One should know the real facts and not make assumptions.
 
Robbinson said:
I don’t think that Jewish scholars deny that these DC books were contained within the Septuagent. These books are still used and studied by Jews today, they were simply omitted from their cannon when the cannon was closed/officially determined in the early 2nd century on the basis that they were not included in the palestinian cannon which included only books written in Hebrew.
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Although it is thought that these books were rejected during the Jamnian Council, the Canon wasn’t closed or officially determined until sometime later… roughly the 14th century. If I recall correctly, the Ethiopian Jews use an OT Canon that is identical to the Catholic OT Canon.
 
This is from our NT; the Apostles read the Deuterocanon it seems.

• Matt. 2:16 - Herod’s decree of slaying innocent children was prophesied in Wis. 11:7 - slaying the holy innocents.
• Matt. 6:19-20 - Jesus’ statement about laying up for yourselves treasure in heaven follows Sirach 29:11 - lay up your treasure.
• Matt… 7:12 - Jesus’ golden rule “do unto others” is the converse of Tobit 4:15 - what you hate, do not do to others.
• Matt. 7:16,20 - Jesus’ statement “you will know them by their fruits” follows Sirach 27:6 - the fruit discloses the cultivation.
• Matt. 9:36 - the people were “like sheep without a shepherd” is same as Judith 11:19 - sheep without a shepherd.
• Matt. 11:25 - Jesus’ description “Lord of heaven and earth” is the same as Tobit 7:18 - Lord of heaven and earth.
• Matt. 12:42 - Jesus refers to the wisdom of Solomon which was recorded and made part of the deuterocanonical books.
• Matt. 16:18 - Jesus’ reference to the “power of death” and “gates of Hades” references Wisdom 16:13.
• Matt. 22:25; Mark 12:20; Luke 20:29 - Gospel writers refer to the canonicity of Tobit 3:8 and 7:11 regarding the seven brothers.
• Matt. 24:15 - the “desolating sacrilege” Jesus refers to is also taken from 1 Macc. 1:54 and 2 Macc. 8:17.
• Matt. 24:16 - let those “flee to the mountains” is taken from 1 Macc. 2:28.
• Matt. 27:43 - if He is God’s Son, let God deliver him from His adversaries follows Wisdom 2:18.
• Mark 4:5,16-17 - Jesus’ description of seeds falling on rocky ground and having no root follows Sirach 40:15.
• Mark 9:48 - description of hell where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched references Judith 16:17.
• Luke 1:42 - Elizabeth’s declaration of Mary’s blessedness above all women follows Uzziah’s declaration in Judith 13:18.
• Luke 1:52 - Mary’s magnificat addressing the mighty falling from their thrones and replaced by lowly follows Sirach 10:14.
• Luke 2:29 - Simeon’s declaration that he is ready to die after seeing the Child Jesus follows Tobit 11:9.
• Luke 13:29 - the Lord’s description of men coming from east and west to rejoice in God follows Baruch 4:37.
• Luke 21:24 - Jesus’ usage of “fall by the edge of the sword” follows Sirach 28:18.
• Luke 24:4 and Acts 1:10 - Luke’s description of the two men in dazzling apparel reminds us of 2 Macc. 3:26.
• John 1:3 - all things were made through Him, the Word, follows Wisdom 9:1.
• John 3:13 - who has ascended into heaven but He who descended from heaven references Baruch 3:29.
• John 4:48; Acts 5:12; 15:12; 2 Cor. 12:12 - Jesus’, Luke’s and Paul’s usage of “signs and wonders” follows Wisdom 8:8.
• John 5:18 - Jesus claiming that God is His Father follows Wisdom 2:16.
• John 6:35-59 - Jesus’ Eucharistic discourse is foreshadowed in Sirach 24:21.
• John 10:22 - the identification of the feast of the dedication is taken from 1 Macc. 4:59.
• John 15:6 - branches that don’t bear fruit and are cut down follows Wis. 4:5 where branches are broken off.
• Acts 1:15 - Luke’s reference to the 120 may be a reference to 1 Macc. 3:55 - leaders of tens / restoration of the twelve.
 
(Cont.)

• Acts 10:34; Rom. 2:11; Gal. 2:6 - Peter’s and Paul’s statement that God shows no partiality references Sirach 35:12.
• Acts 17:29 - description of false gods as like gold and silver made by men follows Wisdom 13:10.
• Rom 1:18-25 - Paul’s teaching on the knowledge of the Creator and the ignorance and sin of idolatry follows Wis. 13:1-10.
• Rom. 1:20 - specifically, God’s existence being evident in nature follows Wis. 13:1.
• Rom. 1:23 - the sin of worshipping mortal man, birds, animals and reptiles follows Wis. 11:15; 12:24-27; 13:10; 14:8.
• Rom. 1:24-27 - this idolatry results in all kinds of sexual perversion which follows Wis. 14:12,24-27.
• Rom. 4:17 - Abraham is a father of many nations follows Sirach 44:19.
• Rom. 9:21 - usage of the potter and the clay, making two kinds of vessels follows Wisdom 15:7.
• 1 Cor. 2:16 - Paul’s question, “who has known the mind of the Lord?” references Wisdom 9:13.
• 1 Cor. 6:12-13; 10:23-26 - warning that, while all things are good, beware of gluttony, follows Sirach 36:18 and 37:28-30.
• 1 Cor. 8:5-6 - Paul acknowledging many “gods” but one Lord follows Wis. 13:3.
• 1 Cor. 10:1 - Paul’s description of our fathers being under the cloud passing through the sea refers to Wisdom 19:7.
• 1 Cor. 10:20 - what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God refers to Baruch 4:7.
• 1 Cor. 15:29 - if no expectation of resurrection, it would be foolish to be baptized on their behalf follows 2 Macc. 12:43-45.
• Eph. 1:17 - Paul’s prayer for a “spirit of wisdom” follows the prayer for the spirit of wisdom in Wisdom 7:7.
• Eph. 6:13-17 - in fact, the whole discussion of armor, helmet, breastplate, sword, shield follows Wis. 5:17-20.
• 1 Tim. 6:15 - Paul’s description of God as Sovereign and King of kings is from 2 Macc. 12:15; 13:4.
• Heb. 11:5 - Enoch being taken up is also referenced in Wis 4:10 and Sir 44:16. See also 2 Kings 2:1-13 & Sir 48:9 regarding Elijah.
• Heb 11:35 - Paul teaches about the martyrdom of the mother and her sons described in 2 Macc. 6:18, 7:1-42.
• Heb. 12:12 - the description “drooping hands” and “weak knees” comes from Sirach 25:23.
• James 1:19 - let every man be quick to hear and slow to respond follows Sirach 5:11.
• James 2:23 - it was reckoned to him as righteousness follows 1 Macc. 2:52 - it was reckoned to him as righteousness.
• James 3:13 - James’ instruction to perform works in meekness follows Sirach 3:17.
• James 5:3 - describing silver which rusts and laying up treasure follows Sirach 29:10-11.
• 1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter teaches about testing faith by purgatorial fire as described in Wisdom 3:5-6 and Sirach 2:5.
• 1 Peter 1:17 - God judging each one according to his deeds refers to Sirach 16:12 - God judges man according to his deeds.
• 2 Peter 2:7 - God’s rescue of a righteous man (Lot) is also described in Wisdom 10:6.
• Rev. 1:18; Matt. 16:18 - power of life over death and gates of Hades
• Rev. 5:7 - God is described as seated on His throne, and this is the same description used in Sirach 1:8.
• Rev. 8:3-4 - prayers of the saints presented to God by the hand of an angel follows Tobit 12:12,15.
• Rev. 8:7 - raining of hail and fire to the earth follows Wisdom 16:22 and Sirach 39:29.
• Rev. 9:3 - raining of locusts on the earth follows Wisdom 16:9.
• Rev. 11:19 - the vision of the ark of the covenant (Mary) in a cloud of glory was prophesied in 2 Macc. 2:7.
• Rev. 17:14 - description of God as King of kings follows 2 Macc. 13:4.
• Rev. 19:1 - the cry “Hallelujah” at the coming of the new Jerusalem follows Tobit 13:18.
• Rev. 19:11 - the description of the Lord on a white horse in the heavens follows 2 Macc. 3:25; 11:8.
• Rev. 19:16 - description of our Lord as King of kings is taken from 2 Macc. 13:4.
• Rev. 21:19 - the description of the new Jerusalem with precious stones is prophesied in Tobit 13:17.
 
No thistle. Over time I have read a great deal about the Deuterocanonicals and the Catholic support for a few references and allusions to the Deuterocanonical books in the NT. Remember, the Catholic Church does not accept or deny the Deuterocanonical books based upon whether or not they are quoted in the New Testament. So in this case, the support or refutation of this list is nothing to do with your church or anything. It is one Catholic’s work and as such should be evaluated by its merits. It is an opinion. I have said before, this particular list would result in a F- in any college setting. It claims literary dependence in verses where that is clearly not the case. It attempts to find strings of unrelated phrases and then it ignores if the same phrase occured in the OT 500 years early in many cases.
This particular list I believe is the result of only two possible things: ignorance or dishonesty.
Do you want to discuss the first one and examine them one at a time? I would like to and have tried to in the past but no one does it. One at a time, starting at the beginning.
 
• Matt. 2:16 - Herod’s decree of slaying innocent children was prophesied in Wis. 11:7 - slaying the holy innocents.

This is the first. Offer your support for this and then we will examine if it holds up to scrutiny. I did notice the person who quoted the list left off the last ones found on the website…I want to look at those as well.
 
BrianH said:
• Matt. 2:16 - Herod’s decree of slaying innocent children was prophesied in Wis. 11:7 - slaying the holy innocents.

This is the first. Offer your support for this and then we will examine if it holds up to scrutiny. I did notice the person who quoted the list left off the last ones found on the website…I want to look at those as well.
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Thistle, I think BrianH is right in this matter. There are things mentioned in the Deutero’s that are also mentioned in the other books, neither proving or dis-proving their canonicity.

In other words, the list doesn’t prove, or dis-prove, anything. And I believe we are chasing a red herring if we try to justify the list.

What matters is that the Early Church used the Deuterocanonical books in their study of Scripture. It was part of the Liturgy, which is what the Canon was originally determined for.
 
thistle said:
Its not a lie. The truth is there for all to see.
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Thistle,

Brian is correct. The list, which can be found at scripturecatholic.com, is seriously flawed.

I don’t know why this agitates many of the Catholic posters here at CAF since, as Brian points out, a criticism of the list is just that, the criticism of one Catholic apologists work.

The claim that “• Matt. 2:16 - Herod’s decree of slaying innocent children was prophesied in Wis. 11:7 - slaying the holy innocents” is rather weak because in the verses following Matt 2:16 we learn that Matthew (and the Holy Ghost) attribute the prophesy to Jeremiah.

It seems to me that when discussing the deutero’s very few realize how complicated their history is and both sides seem to whitewash history in an attempt to make everything appear a slam dunk for their prospective side.
 
If I understand the OP, his friend is claiming that Jews wrote the entire Deuterocanon between the Crucifixion and the big rabbinical meeting at Jamnia. Or possibly, that Christians wrote them.

Gee, doesn’t that argue a fairly large literary efflorescence? All of a sudden, everybody was writing historical fiction life under the old Persian Empire? And they were writing this in the Roman Empire?

Ooooookay. Let’s have this friend prove it by writing… oh, I dunno… a historical novel all about miraculous doings six or seven hundred years ago… and having allllllll his fellow Christians accept it as being Jewish scripture, and the rabbis being forced to meet and condemn it because Jews thought it was Jewish scripture, too. Yeah. Do that.

(The friend’s not allowed into the competition if his name is Joseph Smith or Mohammed. 🙂 But the only reason those worked is that one was publishing in the “hippie San Francisco” portion of pre-Civil War upstate New York, and the other was in the waybacks where only heretical Christians, heretical Jews, and pagans lived. Not exactly hotbeds of scripture scholarship.)
 
The Deuterocanonicals are rejected by protestants because they claim that they are not included in the original Hebrew O.T. preserved by the Jews. They usually cite Rom. 3:1-2 claiming it states that God used the Jews to preserve His Word; therefore, we know that He guided them in the rejection of the Apocryphal books from the canon of Scripture.

What does Romans 3:1-2 actually say? Does it say that the Jews will actually be the ones who canonize the Old Testament? Does it say that they have the authority to determine the canon over the canon that the Church that Jesus himself established? Jesus says to his New Covenant apostles ‘Whatsoever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatsoever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.’? (Mt. 16:18-19, Mt. 18:18). Well, here is the actual text of Romans 3:
1 What advantage then hath the Jew? Or what profit is there of circumcision? 2 Much every way; chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
This just says that to the Jews were committed, or given the oracles of God, or Scripture. It does not say that the Jews were given authority to determine the OT canon. Remember these guys also rejected the entire NT canon as well.

But did the Jews regard the Deutero’s as scripture? In Matthew 22:23-28 we read of the Sadducees approaching Jesus and asking him this question: "23 The same day Sad’ducees came to him, who say that there is no resurrection; and they asked him a question, 24 saying, “Teacher, Moses said, ‘If a man dies, having no children, his brother must marry the widow, and raise up children for his brother.’ 25 Now there were seven brothers among us; the first married, and died, and having no children left his wife to his brother. 26 So too the second and third, down to the seventh. 27 After them all, the woman died. 28 In the resurrection, therefore, to which of the seven will she be wife? For they all had her.”

No Protocanonical book has those events, where someone is tortured, and has the hope of the resurrection of life. But it is found in 2nd Maccabees 7 of the deuterocanon. In fact, it is referenced no less than 6 times of the hope of a resurrection of life. There is more mention here [in 2nd Maccabees] of resurrection of life than in all the rest of the procanon Old Testament passages combined. Plus, there is nothing in the protocanonical Scriptures that says people endured torture in the hope of rising again. in addition Heb. 11:35 also references 2nd Maccabees regarding enduring torture in the hope of rising again.

“35 Women received their dead by resurrection. Some were tortured, refusing to accept release, that they might rise again to a better life.” [Hebrews 11:35]
 
In essence the protestants would want us to accept the decision of christian hating Jews for their OT canon than the decision of the early christian church. Do they realize that those same Jews whose OT canon they accept also rejected the entire NT?

The early church accepted the Septuagint as their OT. That was confirmed at various synods and the deiteros were included in the Vulgate. It was not until 1100 years later that Luther rejected the deuteros and he did so because he saw in them a rejection of several of his doctrines.

So the issue is this: Do you want to accept the decision of the early church who gave us the NT canon also or do you want to accept the decision of a bunch of christian hating Jews and the debased rantings of a psychologically and physically abused victim that was Luther?
 
Hats off to the Catholic posters about the list.👍
One point to the last poster please. Christian hating Jew??? I can only imagine the uproar if the leader of the Catholic Church used that phrase. I would imagine his tone in these kind of discussions should be admired and emulated by all Christians, Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant.:cool:
 
BrianH said:
Hats off to the Catholic posters about the list.👍
One point to the last poster please. Christian hating Jew??? I can only imagine the uproar if the leader of the Catholic Church used that phrase. I would imagine his tone in these kind of discussions should be admired and emulated by all Christians, Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant.:cool:
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It doesn’t matter if it’s Catholic poop or Protestant poopy lists. They both stink!😉
 
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