What exactly does ProLife mean?

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Sunflower15

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I am confused: I sometimes hear of Pro Lifers who are advocates of the Death Penalty… :confused:

Note: I know that it is permissible as defense from further harm or aggression if there is no other way to prevent more harm, but also that it is in modern times no longer necessary due to modern ‘inventions’ such as Life Imprisonment without the possibility of parole.
I do not mean in any way the legitimate need in extremely unusual cases [such as survivors in a shipwreck in a remote uncivilized island without recourse to a jail system, etc] I mean in modern times, let’s say in a modern society such as ours…

If Catholics believe in the Sanctity of Human Life from the moment of conception until natural death, then how natural is it to be executed?

Who said this phrase of ‘from the moment of conception until natural death’ is it just a slogan or is it in a doctrinal document? I keep hearing it, is it just marketing for anti abortion or does it truly apply to all human life?

Does anyone know? Thanks for any (name removed by moderator)ut! 🙂
 
Well, I’m not 100%, but I would say it applies to all human life. I find it strange that someone who is pro-life would be an advocate for the death penalty!!! I def do not believe in that, and I don’t think any other Catholics would either.
 
HNA444 said:
Well, I’m not 100%, but I would say it applies to all human life. I find it strange that someone who is pro-life would be an advocate for the death penalty!!! I def do not believe in that, and I don’t think any other Catholics would either.
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The Church teaches that abortion, embryonic stem-cell research, euthanasia, in-vitro fertilization, suicide (including physician-assisted suicide), and willful homicide are intrinsically evil. It does not condemn capital punishment in the same way that it condemns those other things. It does say that it should only be used if there is no way to contain dangerous criminals. Based on that teaching, many do not see how capital punishment can be justifiable in the United States. Many priests, bishops, and even a pope or two have spoken against the death penalty, and what they have to say is not out of line with the Church’s teaching (so they’re definitely worth listening to).
 
capital punishment is acceptable in certain situations, however limited. abortion is never morally acceptable. there is no situation that could ever legitimize a direct abortion.

the definition of murder is the intentional killing of innocent human life. this takes place with every direct abortion. the baby who is killed is always completely innocent and human.

capital punishment is meant for only those who are not innocent.

this is a very important distinction.

the question is kind of like asking “what is the difference between an unborn baby and a convicted murderer?” certainly we can all see the difference. it is unfair to place them in the same category.
 
We all have the right to defend ourselves, even if that means killing our attacker, as long as we use minimum necessary force (ie. shooting someone with a shot or two, or punching someone out in a hand-to-hand fight but not beating the guts out of them or mowing them down with a hail of bullets). The State also retains the right to defend it’s members, and that may mean executing a criminal who has done something grievous: ie. a serial killer or a serial rapist, especially if they show no remorse for what they did.
 
For the purposes of the Vatican, American Bishops and many very conservative Catholics, being Pro-Life = being anti-aborion, period. Everything else is window dressing. When was the last time you heard a bishop call for witholding communion from a congressman or governor who advocated executing minors?
 
Sonny1954 said:
For the purposes of the Vatican, American Bishops and many very conservative Catholics, being Pro-Life = being anti-aborion, period. Everything else is window dressing. When was the last time you heard a bishop call for witholding communion from a congressman or governor who advocated executing minors?
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Very interesting point!👍

I guess, whenever I heard PRO LIFE, in my mind, I heard ‘from the moment of conception until natural death’…I didn’t hear all the distinctions about Justice and Punishment, Innocence and Guilt, etc.

I am not arguing re: my affinity towards a baby vs. a serial killer…

But, when we follow God’s Law…my ‘feelings’ are not as important…but the ‘image and likeness of God’ that is in every human whether innocent or guilty…

It seems that Justice is NOT so much about US, but about GOD, and defiling HIS image in us is a problem…

BTW, while reading Genesis 4:13-15
***‘Cain said to the Lord: My punishment is too great to bear. Since you have now banished me from the soil, and I must avoid your presence and become a restless wanderer on the earth, anyone may kill me at sight. Not so! the Lord said to him. If anyone kills Cain, Cain shall be avenged sevenfold." So the Lord put a mark on Cain, lest anyone should kill him at sight.’ ***

It seems that God also established the concept of barring criminals to a separate area rather than kill them because in Genesis God asked for murderers, even by accident, to go to a separate place to live.
 
jokerman said:
capital punishment is acceptable in certain situations, however limited. abortion is never morally acceptable. there is no situation that could ever legitimize a direct abortion.

the definition of murder is the intentional killing of innocent human life. this takes place with every direct abortion. the baby who is killed is always completely innocent and human.

capital punishment is meant for only those who are not innocent.

this is a very important distinction.

the question is kind of like asking “what is the difference between an unborn baby and a convicted murderer?” certainly we can all see the difference. it is unfair to place them in the same category.
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I DO understand your point. I’m just asking:
  1. where does that slogan 'from moment of conception to natural death come from?
  2. does it matter whether someone is innocent or guilty in terms of God’s image & likeness? [which seems to be the ONLY reason why it’s wrong to kill humans, according to the Bible]
  3. aren’t we supposed to pray for the conversion of sinners for the glory of God? [the Fatima prayer for example, ‘…Lord, lead all souls to Heaven, especially those in most need of Thy Mercy.’
 
I just “escaped” last week from a similar thread that went round and round about this, ending up with a lot of arguing about the death penalty. But I will throw this in and let others chew it up, since I don’t give up easily.

In MY view (not any official Church position, but my personal view based on my religious convictions), I would say that to be TRULY Pro-Life means to be against killing of any kind. So:

No Abortion
No Death Penalty
No killing in anger or in war (although that is an impossibility in our world)
No killing of another human except in the case of defending yourself or someone else from a deadly attack. And even then, one should defend oneself only with the intent to protect themselves and others, not with the INTENT to purposely kill the other person.

If this sounds suspiciously like a pacifist manifesto, it is because to be really Pro-LIFE means to follow Jesus, and the true disciple would not want to be in the position to take another person’s life.

In saying this, I am not putting down anyone of you who may have served in the military or in a profession where you could have been called on to use deadly force (policeman). In my family are several who served in the Army and Navy, in peace and in war. I am forever grateful to them. But what I deplore is that our world and the people in it (or at least the governments that run it) can not seem to settle anything without bloodshed.

Obviously, my view of Pro-Life does not mesh with how many other people view it. I do not understand, as I pointed out in another thread, a very big disconnect, which is:

There are “Pro-life” people who favor killing via the death penalty, and

There are “Pro-choice” people (who favor killing human fetuses) who are against the death penalty.

Neither position makes any sense to me.
 
chaunceygardner said:
I just “escaped” last week from a similar thread that went round and round about this, ending up with a lot of arguing about the death penalty. But I will throw this in and let others chew it up, since I don’t give up easily.

In MY view (not any official Church position, but my personal view based on my religious convictions), I would say that to be TRULY Pro-Life means to be against killing of any kind. So:

No Abortion
No Death Penalty
No killing in anger or in war (although that is an impossibility in our world)
No killing of another human except in the case of defending yourself or someone else from a deadly attack. And even then, one should defend oneself only with the intent to protect themselves and others, not with the INTENT to purposely kill the other person.

If this sounds suspiciously like a pacifist manifesto, it is because to be really Pro-LIFE means to follow Jesus, and the true disciple would not want to be in the position to take another person’s life.

In saying this, I am not putting down anyone of you who may have served in the military or in a profession where you could have been called on to use deadly force (policeman). In my family are several who served in the Army and Navy, in peace and in war. I am forever grateful to them. But what I deplore is that our world and the people in it (or at least the governments that run it) can not seem to settle anything without bloodshed.

Obviously, my view of Pro-Life does not mesh with how many other people view it. I do not understand, as I pointed out in another thread, a very big disconnect, which is:

There are “Pro-life” people who favor killing via the death penalty, and

There are “Pro-choice” people (who favor killing human fetuses) who are against the death penalty.

Neither position makes any sense to me.
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Well…I couldn’t agree more!
I hadn’t thought about the Pro-Choice against the Death Penalty…but I imagine there might be some!

I do know Anti-Abortionists who favor the Death Penalty & War [just or unjust, because who goes to war or agrees with a war while thinking it ‘unjust’? War is ALWAYS ‘just’ in the eye of the beholder!]

Have you heard the slogan about ‘from moment of conception to natural death’?
Do you know where it comes from?

No one seems to know!
 
I’m in favor of the death penalty and am against all abortions. It is a dogmatic teaching of the faith to be against abortion. It is not so with the death penalty. I’m not sure if any other Pope before John Paul II has spoken out against it in such a blanket manner.

Although the Pope’s words do not indicate a teaching that we MUST abide by as Catholics, it is important to seriously consider his words. So how do I reconcile this with my opinion?
  1. I remember that the Pope has more on his mind than the US. I recall what happened to the man in China who was held responsible for one of the food contamination issues a couple of years ago (some high ranking director type) - he was tried, found guilty and executed. In addition, there are still countries where the death penalty is given out too freely. So, it is possible that he may not have had us in mind when he spoke.
  2. People still harm and kill others in prison (both prisoners and guards). What can be done with such people who are a danger? I believe that this is another case where the DP is justified.
I will say that JP2’s words have caused me to do a great deal of thinking, and soften my stance just a bit. I don’t feel any need to argue my thoughts with people, but I did want to share that there are those of us who have given it considerable thought.
 
I’ve always understood Pro-Life as the political stance of believing “Abortion = murder”. I’m not sure if Pro-Life could extend to being against the Death Penalty, but I don’t see why not…

I think, and this might simply be my own opinion (I hope not), that the Church’s stance on Capital Punishment is no Death Penalty, but life sentences and public service are acceptable. I hope I’m dreadfully wrong here however, because I would permit the use of execution if the criminal was truly unrepentant of his severe crime(s)-mass murder, multiple counts of rape, terrorism, theft, etc. After many crimes, pleading insanity on the part of the defense of the criminal and perpetrator is considered deceitful and incredulous.

Perhaps, Pro-Life could also extend to the notion of abhorring usage of contraceptives and birth control, because they distort and abuse the image of sex between male and female and put birth out of wedlock a common occurrence, as well as abortion.
 
Sunflower15 said:
I DO understand your point. I’m just asking:
  1. where does that slogan 'from moment of conception to natural death come from?
  2. does it matter whether someone is innocent or guilty in terms of God’s image & likeness? [which seems to be the ONLY reason why it’s wrong to kill humans, according to the Bible]
  3. aren’t we supposed to pray for the conversion of sinners for the glory of God? [the Fatima prayer for example, ‘…Lord, lead all souls to Heaven, especially those in most need of Thy Mercy.’
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im not exactly sure of the origin of that phrase you are asking about. but i can tell you what it means to me: no direct killing of innocent human life, specifically targeting abortion and euthenasia. abortion is an attack on the young and innocent while euthenasia is usually and attack on the old and innocent. i think we may be taking the phrase out of context if we try to apply it to convicted murderers or war combatants in the field. the Church has always held that the state has the right to use capital punishment on certain dangerous criminals. the Church has holds to the teaching of a “just war”, whereas under certain conditions bloody war can actually be considered Just.

certain acts are intrinsically evil meaning they are objectively wrong and no circumstance could ever legitimize them. abortion and euthenasia fall into this category while capital punishment and war do not. that is what the Church teaches.
 
The Church teaches that to be pro-life means to be against abortion, the death penalty, euthanasia, assisted suicide, suicide, and embryonic stem cell research. Let me know if I left anything out. I, for one, accept the Church’s definition of pro-life.
 
Holly3278 said:
The Church teaches that to be pro-life means to be against abortion, the death penalty, euthanasia, assisted suicide, suicide, and embryonic stem cell research. Let me know if I left anything out. I, for one, accept the Church’s definition of pro-life.
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it does not include the death penalty
 
Catechism of the Catholic Church on the death penalty:

2267 Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recoursre to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust agressor.

On abortion:

2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion that is the say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law.

as you can see the Church makes an important distinction between these two things. its not fair to place them together as equal. it is possible to be pro-life but still accept the death penalty as a possible means of justice. it is not a contradiction.
 
something interesting ive noticed. most of the time when someone fails to make the moral distinction, mentioned above, between abortion and capital punishment do so at the expense of unborn babies…they tend to be pro-choice!

its almost as if they place them together as morally equal so that they can justify their pro-abortion position, not the other way around. i know there are exceptions, especially here on these boards but that is based on my own experience and observations dealing with this issue over the years.
 
jokerman said:
something interesting ive noticed. most of the time when someone fails to make the moral distinction, mentioned above, between abortion and capital punishment do so at the expense of unborn babies…they tend to be pro-choice!

its almost as if they place them together as morally equal so that they can justify their pro-abortion position, not the other way around. i know there are exceptions, especially here on these boards but that is based on my own experience and observations dealing with this issue over the years.
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I don’t even know many Pro-Choicers myself, so I’m have not noticed this.

However, I am PRO LIFE ‘from the moment of conception through natural death’ though I have NO idea where that slogan came from!

I also believe that in Genesis, God was extremely clear that Justice/Judgement… was HIS alone and that we are NOT to kill -even a killer- but to ’ vanish ’ him instead. This is our modern jail system, due to lack of space. God does not condone revenge or vengeance at all! but rather mercy…

In addition, stories like St. Maria Goretti and Alessandro Serenelli really touch me. It convinced me that we are ‘works in progress’ of God’s…He works in us, but we need time before death to be able to undergo the change and to choose Good rather than Evil by repenting.

It reminds me of the parable of the Prodigal Son, and most people react like the ‘good’ son who is jealous and can’t understand why the father shows so much joy over the repentant sinner. :rolleyes:

Alessandro was saved and forgiven, and Jesus triumphed over Evil on that one soul *alluding to the one lost sheep he abandons the 99 to go find!] Another thing most people don’t like…:rolleyes:

Jesus went through SO much, should we not be glad if He gets to keep as many sinners as possible? Is this not a great victory over Evil?
Wouldn’t a soul under terrible Evil influence who did horrible crimes, but later sincerely repents and seeks God not be a great glory for God? Would a victim [or relative/loved one] not show great glory to God by forgiving for His sake?

I think so, precisely because these things are counter-intuitive; revenge/vegeance [under the guise of Justice], is intuitive and of ‘this world’. Jesus taught to love the enemy, because even the ‘worldly’ or ‘evil’ ones love their friends/family, but by loving the enemy, others would know that we are His…
 
jokerman said:
Catechism of the Catholic Church on the death penalty:

2267 Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recoursre to the death penalty,*** if this is the ONLY possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust agressor.***

Sorry…but I’m not sure if you read that part…

On abortion:

2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion that is the say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law.

as you can see the Church makes an important distinction between these two things. its not fair to place them together as equal. it is possible to be pro-life but still accept the death penalty as a possible means of justice. it is not a contradiction.
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Nowhere in the Catechism does it establish the death penalty as a ‘means of justice’ just to deter further aggression, which means as ‘self-defense’ or defense of other potential victims…I think your ‘mind filter’ added the rest…
 
PursuingLogos20 said:
I’ve always understood Pro-Life as the political stance of believing “Abortion = murder”. I’m not sure if Pro-Life could extend to being against the Death Penalty, but I don’t see why not…

I think, and this might simply be my own opinion (I hope not), that the Church’s stance on Capital Punishment is no Death Penalty, but life sentences and public service are acceptable. I hope I’m dreadfully wrong here however, because I would permit the use of execution if the criminal was truly unrepentant of his severe crime(s)-mass murder, multiple counts of rape, terrorism, theft, etc. After many crimes, pleading insanity on the part of the defense of the criminal and perpetrator is considered deceitful and incredulous.

I have to confess that I’m not really anti capital punishment because of compassion for the criminal…*

Perhaps, Pro-Life could also extend to the notion of abhorring usage of contraceptives and birth control, because they distort and abuse the image of sex between male and female and put birth out of wedlock a common occurrence, as well as abortion.*
Yes, it is taught to ‘lead’ in that direction as a corollary…especially on the Pill, which is an abortificent…when taken afterwards causes the fetus to not be able to implant, therefore producing an abortion, rather than just ‘prevent’ conception…
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