What exactly does ProLife mean?

[Sunflower15]

I’m in favor of the death penalty and am against all abortions. It is a dogmatic teaching of the faith to be against abortion. It is not so with the death penalty. I’m not sure if any other Pope before John Paul II has spoken out against it in such a blanket manner.

It is not just JPII! All Church teachings lead in that direction, including the Catechism, the Bishops, the Magisterium, and as far as I know, all Popes [at least recent ones].

Although the Pope’s words do not indicate a teaching that we MUST abide by as Catholics, it is important to seriously consider his words. So how do I reconcile this with my opinion?

1. I remember that the Pope has more on his mind than the US. I recall what happened to the man in China who was held responsible for one of the food contamination issues a couple of years ago (some high ranking director type) - he was tried, found guilty and executed. In addition, there are still countries where the death penalty is given out too freely. So, it is possible that he may not have had us in mind when he spoke.
2. People still harm and kill others in prison (both prisoners and guards). What can be done with such people who are a danger? I believe that this is another case where the DP is justified.

I will say that JP2’s words have caused me to do a great deal of thinking, and soften my stance just a bit. I don’t feel any need to argue my thoughts with people, but I did want to share that there are those of us who have given it considerable thought.

I admire that though you have strong feelings about an issue, you are willing to be ‘intellectually honest’ and accept that the Church is teaching the opposite,and then to at least make a sincere attempt at ‘reconciling’ both opposites in your heart/mind. I sincerely admire that! :tiphat:

Have you read the story on St. Maria Goretti [a young girl stabbed 14 times for resisting rape] and Alessandro Serenelli [her murderer]?
mariagoretti.org/

Have you read the stories of the victims’ families who oppose capital punishment?
murdervictimsfamilies.org/

It is a different ‘take’ on the situation…not an acceptance of the crimes, but an acknowledgment that the real war is spiritual, between Good and Evil, being played at by people with varying degrees of freedom [such as addictions to chemicals], knowledge, brain disorders that are real and cause mental imbalances, character formation, fear, having been victims of the same themselves since early life, and various horrible combinations thereof. These things DO really affect our behavior.

I also wish that our educational system included some sort of civics/moral critical thinking, even if not directly Christian or any specific religion, or even if it were just ‘moral’ and not spiritual…surely, everyone agrees with what we Catholics label ‘Natural Law’ intrinsic in humans across cultures.

 

[jokerman]

Nowhere in the Catechism does it establish the death penalty as a ‘means of justice’ just to deter further aggression, which means as ‘self-defense’ or defense of other potential victims…I think your ‘mind filter’ added the rest…

of course i read that part but you missed my point. the distinction that i was trying to demonstrate is that according to the catechism, it IS morally possible in certain situations to use the death penalty. as apposed to abortion where there is IS NO such possibility, no exceptions, no circumstances can ever make it morally acceptable. it is an intrinsically evil act unlike the death penalty as we see from the catechism.

 

[Sunflower15]

of course i read that part but you missed my point. the distinction that i was trying to demonstrate is that according to the catechism, it IS morally possible in certain situations to use the death penalty. as apposed to abortion where there is IS NO such possibility, no exceptions, no circumstances can ever make it morally acceptable. it is an intrinsically evil act unlike the death penalty as we see from the catechism.

Oh, of course! And I don’t believe in abortion under ANY circumstance either…but it does seem that the point you are making is one of degree rather than an absolute…

Do you believe in Death Penalty personally? If so, why?

 

[JSSebastianoP]

The Church teaches that to be pro-life means to be against abortion, the death penalty, euthanasia, assisted suicide, suicide, and embryonic stem cell research. Let me know if I left anything out. I, for one, accept the Church’s definition of pro-life.

Pro-Life also means to be against homosexual acts and homosexual “marriage”. And there is “wiggle room” on the issue of the death penalty.

Pax.

 

[jokerman]

Oh, of course! And I don’t believe in abortion under ANY circumstance either…but it does seem that the point you are making is one of degree rather than an absolute…

Do you believe in Death Penalty personally? If so, why?

i would not want to abolish the death penalty and here is why. some people are just as dangerous behind bars as they are on the outside. gang leaders, for example, are responsible for dozens of deaths and can sit behind bars and give orders. they are evil and deadly and they have major influence no matter where they happen to be sitting. when they give orders to kill, people end up dead. there are certain people so dangerous and evil that life in prison is not enough to protect society from them. they can reek just as much havoc from the inside.

 

[iluvburpees]

I just “escaped” last week from a similar thread that went round and round about this, ending up with a lot of arguing about the death penalty. But I will throw this in and let others chew it up, since I don’t give up easily.

In MY view (not any official Church position, but my personal view based on my religious convictions), I would say that to be TRULY Pro-Life means to be against killing of any kind. So:

No Abortion
No Death Penalty
No killing in anger or in war (although that is an impossibility in our world)
No killing of another human except in the case of defending yourself or someone else from a deadly attack. And even then, one should defend oneself only with the intent to protect themselves and others, not with the INTENT to purposely kill the other person.

If this sounds suspiciously like a pacifist manifesto, it is because to be really Pro-LIFE means to follow Jesus, and the true disciple would not want to be in the position to take another person’s life.

In saying this, I am not putting down anyone of you who may have served in the military or in a profession where you could have been called on to use deadly force (policeman). In my family are several who served in the Army and Navy, in peace and in war. I am forever grateful to them. But what I deplore is that our world and the people in it (or at least the governments that run it) can not seem to settle anything without bloodshed.

Obviously, my view of Pro-Life does not mesh with how many other people view it. I do not understand, as I pointed out in another thread, a very big disconnect, which is:

There are “Pro-life” people who favor killing via the death penalty, and

There are “Pro-choice” people (who favor killing human fetuses) who are against the death penalty.

Neither position makes any sense to me.

If you understood the difference between murdering innocent babies and lawfully executing a dangerous criminal, the first position would make sense.

It is really quite insane to say that the death penalty is intrinsically evil. St. Paul permitted it (right in the Bible), the Church has always permitted it, and many popes have spoken in favor of it (the latest, I believe, was Pius XII, who was quite a recent pope). While we may debate whether it is necessary in a certain era, it is pretty much anti-Catholic to put it on the same level as abortion. While there has been no dogmatic declaration on the death penalty, no pope, to my knowledge, has ever said that capital punishment is wrong in every or any circumstance. That alone is enough evidence to prove that it is, at the very least, morally permissible in important situations.

 

[Sheeniac]

If you understood the difference between murdering innocent babies and lawfully executing a dangerous criminal, the first position would make sense.

It is really quite insane to say that the death penalty is intrinsically evil. St. Paul permitted it (right in the Bible), the Church has always permitted it, and many popes have spoken in favor of it (the latest, I believe, was Pius XII, who was quite a recent pope). While we may debate whether it is necessary in a certain era, it is pretty much anti-Catholic to put it on the same level as abortion. While there has been no dogmatic declaration on the death penalty, no pope, to my knowledge, has ever said that capital punishment is wrong in every or any circumstance. That alone is enough evidence to prove that it is, at the very least, morally permissible in important situations.

And since dogma doesn’t change, it is obvious from history that the death penalty will NEVER be not permissable.

 

[JSSebastianoP]

And since dogma doesn’t change, it is obvious from history that the death penalty will NEVER be not permissable.

I think it might be more accurate to say “NEVER will it be unpermissable in all circumstances” It is even today an imprudent action in certain circumstances.

Pax.

 

[Sheeniac]

I think it might be more accurate to say “NEVER will it be unpermissable in all circumstances” It is even today an imprudent action in certain circumstances.

Pax.

Perhaps - those double negatives can be a little confusing

 

[JSSebastianoP]

Perhaps - those double negatives can be a little confusing

Yes… I just wanted to nip any potential confusion in the bud.

Pax.

 

[Sunflower15]

If you understood the difference between murdering innocent babies and lawfully executing a dangerous criminal, the first position would make sense.

It is really quite insane to say that the death penalty is intrinsically evil.
Why?

St. Paul permitted it (right in the Bible), the Church has always permitted it, and many popes have spoken in favor of it (the latest, I believe, was Pius XII, who was quite a recent pope). While we may debate whether it is necessary in a certain era, it is pretty much anti-Catholic to put it on the same level as abortion. While there has been no dogmatic declaration on the death penalty, no pope, to my knowledge, has ever said that capital punishment is wrong in every or any circumstance. That alone is enough evidence to prove that it is, at the very least, morally permissible in important situations.

What opinion do you have of Genesis 4:1-16?
Do you not see that violence begets violence? Can you fight Evil with Evil?
Does the Evil one not want us to kill one another? Are we not doing his ‘work’ by killing each other, whatever excuse we may find?

 

[Sunflower15]

Are you aware that we are one of the few ‘developed’ countries still having capital punishment?

Most of the countries that still have it are not quite known for being ‘civilized’ or ‘just’…or plain ‘decent’…did you know we are among those in ‘that’ un-distinguished list?

Executions in 2008: [from wikipedia]
Country Number
China At least 5000
Iran At least 346
Saudi Arabia At least 102
North Korea At least 63
United States 37
Pakistan At least 36
Iraq At least 34
Vietnam At least 19
Afghanistan At least 17
Japan 15
Yemen At least 13
Indonesia 10
Libya At least 8
Sudan At least 5
Bangladesh 5
Belarus 4
Somalia At least 3
Egypt At least 2
United Arab Emirates At least 1
Malaysia At least 1
Mongolia At least 1
Singapore At least 1
Syria 1
Bahrain 1
Botswana 1
Saint Kitts and Nevis 1

Of course, each country above will claim that ‘it’ did it right, though the ‘others’ might be barbarians…
Notice the absence of European countries, Australia, and other ‘developed’ countries. Only Singapore, Japan and the US would be considered truly developed AND still practicing death penalty. However, we lack the cultural ‘honorable’ death tradition of the Asians [such as harakiri, etc] and we are supposedly ‘Christian’…among mostly Muslim nations which believe in death to punish.

Am I the only one to find this a little ‘odd’?

 

[jokerman]

I don’t even know many Pro-Choicers myself, so I’m have not noticed this.

However, I am PRO LIFE ‘from the moment of conception through natural death’ though I have NO idea where that slogan came from!

I also believe that in Genesis, God was extremely clear that Justice/Judgement… was HIS alone and that we are NOT to kill -even a killer- but to ’ vanish ’ him instead. This is our modern jail system, due to lack of space. God does not condone revenge or vengeance at all! but rather mercy…

In addition, stories like St. Maria Goretti and Alessandro Serenelli really touch me. It convinced me that we are ‘works in progress’ of God’s…He works in us, but we need time before death to be able to undergo the change and to choose Good rather than Evil by repenting.

It reminds me of the parable of the Prodigal Son, and most people react like the ‘good’ son who is jealous and can’t understand why the father shows so much joy over the repentant sinner.

Alessandro was saved and forgiven, and Jesus triumphed over Evil on that one soul *alluding to the one lost sheep he abandons the 99 to go find!] Another thing most people don’t like…

Jesus went through SO much, should we not be glad if He gets to keep as many sinners as possible? Is this not a great victory over Evil?
Wouldn’t a soul under terrible Evil influence who did horrible crimes, but later sincerely repents and seeks God not be a great glory for God? Would a victim [or relative/loved one] not show great glory to God by forgiving for His sake?

I think so, precisely because these things are counter-intuitive; revenge/vegeance [under the guise of Justice], is intuitive and of ‘this world’. Jesus taught to love the enemy, because even the ‘worldly’ or ‘evil’ ones love their friends/family, but by loving the enemy, others would know that we are His…

im not even going to try to argue against this one…this is a good post. very true and very well said. also brings to mind the image of JPII embracing the guy that shot him, praying together in his jail cell. in most cases i am in agreement with you, but unlike abortion i still dont think its absolute.

sorry it took me so long to reply, i didnt notice it before.

 

[Sunflower15]

Are you aware that we are one of the few ‘developed’ countries still having capital punishment?

Most of the countries that still have it are not quite known for being ‘civilized’ or ‘just’…or plain ‘decent’…did you know we are among those in ‘that’ un-distinguished list?

Executions in 2008: [from wikipedia]
Country Number
China At least 5000
Iran At least 346
Saudi Arabia At least 102
North Korea At least 63
United States 37
Pakistan At least 36
Iraq At least 34
Vietnam At least 19
Afghanistan At least 17
Japan 15
Yemen At least 13
Indonesia 10
Libya At least 8
Sudan At least 5
Bangladesh 5
Belarus 4
Somalia At least 3
Egypt At least 2
United Arab Emirates At least 1
Malaysia At least 1
Mongolia At least 1
Singapore At least 1
Syria 1
Bahrain 1
Botswana 1
Saint Kitts and Nevis 1

Of course, each country above will claim that ‘it’ did it right, though the ‘others’ might be barbarians…
Notice the absence of European countries, Australia, and other ‘developed’ countries. Only Singapore, Japan and the US would be considered truly developed AND still practicing death penalty. However, we lack the cultural ‘honorable’ death tradition of the Asians [such as harakiri, etc] and we are supposedly ‘Christian’…among mostly Muslim nations which believe in death to punish.

Am I the only one to find this a little ‘odd’?

 

[Sunflower15]

The Church teaches that to be pro-life means to be against abortion, the death penalty, euthanasia, assisted suicide, suicide, and embryonic stem cell research. Let me know if I left anything out. I, for one, accept the Church’s definition of pro-life.

That is how I understand the Church’s teachings too! Not to speak of Jesus’ mercy!

 

[AnimalGal]

Pro-Life also means to be against homosexual acts and homosexual “marriage”. And there is “wiggle room” on the issue of the death penalty.

Pax.

Where do the homosexuals with children fit in? According to you they can’t be pro-life. So they must be pro-choice, right?

 

[JSSebastianoP]

Where do the homosexuals with children fit in? According to you they can’t be pro-life. So they must be pro-choice, right?

Pro-life means open to life in everything we do.
I presume that by “homosexuals” you mean “people who commit homosexual acts” rather than “people with the homosexual mental symptom”.
In that case, their pro-life position is shaky.
Remember that the opposition isn’t always “pro-choice” it’s “pro-death” or “anti-life”

Pax.

 

[estesbob]

Am I the only one to find this a little ‘odd’?

It is unfortunate that thje US still resorts to Capital Punishment. But it has nothing to do with being pro-life. Not only does the US allow for capital punishment-so does our Church.

 

[Sunflower15]

It is unfortunate that thje US still resorts to Capital Punishment. But it has nothing to do with being pro-life. Not only does the US allow for capital punishment-so does our Church.

Not for countries like ours, with the ability to deter criminals from committing further crimes by life imprisonment without the possibility of parole…which by the way, turns out to be a fraction of the cost of executing someone!

No other ‘Christian’ country allows the Death Penalty…

 

[Harrison]

Not for countries like ours, with the ability to deter criminals from committing further crimes by life imprisonment without the possibility of parole…which by the way, turns out to be a fraction of the cost of executing someone!

No other ‘Christian’ country allows the Death Penalty…

What about the prisoners that continue to kill and commit other crimes from/in prison? Is it not a crime to kill prison guards or other prisoners, too? We must protect those human lives as well, not just us on the outside. People seem to think that throwing a murderer in jail for the rest of his life is guaranteed to keep that person from murdering more people. This is simply not so.

2267 Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.