What exactly does this whole submission to the husband thing mean?

[buffalo]

I really encourage all to read this. It clears a lot up

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LurWb77DSf6Rt6gRmMuSQ_ess5XKGnre/view?usp=sharing

 

[Wife.of.Gabriel]

I don’t know, these hypotheticals seem so far off base from reality. My marriage and all the marriages I personally know, close family members, are so different. My husband tells me everything and so do I. He texts me when he’s on his way home, shares all about his day, his boss, coworkers, clients, things he read about, what he saw on Facebook & we have multiple conversations every day. Some decisions he makes he asks for my (name removed by moderator)ut first before deciding, other decisions he makes on his own and let’s me know about after the fact. We know each other. I trust him. It’s easy for me to submit to him 99.99999% of the time.

Why would it be scary for a wife for her husband to make one, or multiple, decisions on his own? He knows his wife, knows his family and loves them and wants the best for them. Why wouldn’t a wife be able to trust him?

am assuming a case where the husband makes a unilateral decision without his wife’s (name removed by moderator)ut.

It’s been known to happen.

What now?

How does submission look like in these cases?

 

[Wife.of.Gabriel]

Obviously, that husband was not a true Scotsman, because no true Scotsman would do that

 

[Xantippe]

You’re assuming the loving Catholic Christian Husband & Father doesn’t care about or hasn’t carefully consider these issues & doesn’t speak to his wife before making his final decision? That would be absurd. It’s making me wonder, what kind of man did you choose marry that this hypothetical situation seems to be literally be freaking you out so much?

I’m just pointing out why getting one month’s notice from one’s husband for an international move is a big deal. A guy can be ever so loving and ever so Catholic and yet be impulsive or bad at planning and logistics–especially if he’s never moved overseas or hasn’t ever done so with a whole household of people, critters and stuff.

Also, why are you assuming that a loving Catholic wife is objecting for no good reason? This stuff about “loving Catholic” husbands or wives cuts both ways.

 

[Wife.of.Gabriel]

I’m just saying a hectic international move is less important than my husband. Keeping priorities right: God/Church, Husband/Marriage, Children and it’s a slam dunk easy choice - trust your husband in his choice or fight him. My husband and marriage are far more important & valuable to me than my location. I left living on the beach to live in a desert for our marriage and I loved the beach, walked with the sand between my toes & breeze in my hair every day, but I don’t miss it. Haven’t even visited in years. It’d have been a family tragedy of I had picked the Pacific Ocean over my husband.
It’s simple: Husband/Marriage > GPS Coordinates

 

[Gingersnaps4]

Also, why would SHE need to slice the cheese, when she wanted to not do anything at all? Also I’m sure she’s hungry as well. Idealistic indeed, the woman sounds like a doormat in all of those scenarios.

 

[Sarcelle]

It’s not a choice of trusting your husband or fighting him.

It’s also a case of advising your husband because he too is human and may not see all the ends and implications of his decisions. Two heads are better than one.

To be honest to just blindly go along with whatever he decides even if it could mean disaster down the road is not doing him or your marriage any favors.

 

[Petravis]

It is correct. Sarai means “my lady”, so Sarah called Abraham her lord to even things out respectfully.
None of the commandments of the Torah mention women wearing head coverings nor obeying men nor keeping silent nor getting hit.

As Jewish on my mother’s side, I took up memorizing all the 613 commandments.

Abraham only slept with Hagar the one time as being used to giving Sarah her way. Sarah was suffering failing faith in her older years, and her despair affected Abraham. Only after he repented and did 14 years penance did he see the TRINITY, and did it only then say that his faith in those latter years wavered not. This heeding of a distraught wife in her erroneous reasoning paralleled Adam with Eve. Neither husband was obeyed by the wife.

When, after receiving Isaac, Sarah said to put Hagar and Ishmael out, GOD told him to obey her wish.
Sarah was held up by Peter as showing true spousal respect, not as being subjugated. It’s her spousal attitude he sees as beautiful.

 

[Petravis]

All Christians are to be unto one another as JESUS was to the FATHER, as GOD unto GOD, treating one another, we as man unto man, with preference.

 

[Wife.of.Gabriel]

It’s not a choice of trusting your husband or fighting him.

It’s also a case of advising your husband because he too is human and may not see all the ends and implications of his decisions. Two heads are better than one.

To be honest to just blindly go along with whatever he decides even if it could mean disaster down the road is not doing him or your marriage any favors.

Actually the only thing I’ve been hearing from most of the people posting here is: who cares what the Church teaches through the Bible & the Magistarium have been teaching consistently for 2,000 year? Instead, ignore all of that which doesn’t agree with my preconceived notion about marriage which is: Any time your husband doesn’t do exactly what you want him to in the time frame you want him to, you need to fight him. Don’t ever stop Demanding your own way. And be sure to fight him on every single issue regardless of how trivial. Getting your own way is the very most important thing in a marriage, definitely more important than your husband in all circumstances. And if he doesn’t like it, then divorce his sorry patooty! That’s what I’m hearing.

You suggest talking to your husband about his decisions two heads are better than one and I’ve been saying all along OF COURSE!!! But once all talking is over, all the angles have been examined, how ever many conversations and days, minutes and hours it took, once your husband has made the final decision, submit to it just like the Holy Spirit through St. Paul wrote.

Who said go blindly like a doormat? Not me. Ever. Being obediently submissive is not about not caring. It’s about caring and expressing all of your concerns and accepting not getting what you want every single time. Will your husband make mistakes? Of course. He’s human. Guess what, on the times you do get your way… sometimes it’ll end up being a mistake, too. Because you’re human, too. It’s okay. The world won’t end if you don’t get your way on every little thing in life, I promise.

As I’m writing this, my husband texted me a photo and is asking for my opinion about a piece of furniture he’s considering bringing home. Gave him my opinion, and guess what now he’s gonna make his decision on the matter & I’m not gonna die if he considers and ultimately rejects my opinion.

Jesus built authority into everything: Jesus with the Father, the Church with the Pope, Children with their Parents and yes, even Wives with their Husband. Everything Jesus created has a line of Authority, with God the Father at the very tippy top, and when those under Authority rebel against it, it creates chaos. When Martin Luther rebeled against the Pope and now we have nearly 40,000 different “Christian” denominations. When a wife rebels against her husband, it can create divisions in their entire family.

 

[Xantippe]

Are you saying that you’d rather have this hypothetical wife not submit to her husband because she’s afraid of how school will be different for her children in a different country. Do you want giving into Fear to be more important than this hypothetical wife’s Husband & Marriage?

Well, it would be just as much him choosing getting his own way over his wife and children.

The overseas job situation could easily fit into the “right reason” category if the wife had a well-founded belief that the new area is unsafe, that the job is unstable, that the children will struggle there, that good medical care will be unavailable, that she herself will have trouble continuing her work, that the children will be deprived of contact with their extended families, and that travel back to see family and friends will wind up being expensive and rare, or any number of any other issues.

I mentioned the overseas scenario briefly to my husband and he mentioned that there might also be some issues with work permission. For example, here in the US, somebody from outside the US might get permission to work at a US company–but only at that particular US company. It would be a bit risky to take that kind of offer in a foreign country.

Why not trust God that through the wife’s obedience He will bless the family, like he promised? Why not, confront fear by contacting the embassy directly to inquire & learning more about the schooling system. Why not call the school directly and learn first hand? Why give into Fear?

Again, this is a lot to fit into a single month…Why not take an appropriate amount of time and do it right?

Why give into Fear?

You say “Fear,” I say prudence. Tomato, tom-ah-to.

Prudence is one of the 4 cardinal virtues.

 

[Sarcelle]

The marriage is on trouble the moment a husband abuses his wife, not when the wife leaves to save her life.

I would never advise an abused spouse ( husbands can get abused too) to stay in hopes of the other converting. In fact it enables the abuser in their sin.

 

[Gingersnaps4]

Any time your husband doesn’t do exactly what you want him to in the time frame you want him to, you need to fight him. Don’t ever stop Demanding your own way. And be sure to fight him on every single issue regardless of how trivial. Getting your own way is the very most important thing in a marriage, definitely more important than your husband in all circumstances. And if he doesn’t like it, then divorce his sorry patooty! That’s what I’m hearing.

I don’t know about anyone else here, but I happen to have an awesome marriage. My husband is the spiritual head of the family, and he sees me as an equal partner in the relationship and when it comes to decision making. Neither of us would ever make a big decision without discussing it with each other and coming to a mutual decision. Neither of us demands. Sometimes we end up doing things his way, and sometimes my way. We trust each other, rather than it just being me needing to trust him. We have a great relationship and I wouldn’t trade it for anything.

 

[Xantippe]

Some decisions he makes he asks for my (name removed by moderator)ut first before deciding, other decisions he makes on his own and let’s me know about after the fact.

And presumably you also make some decisions without asking him…

@Xantippe is quite familiar with these posts,

I’ve also listened to a lot of Dave Ramsey and have heard a lot of examples of both husbands and wives behaving like donkeys. People of both sexes can be very stupid about major decisions, even if they are Christian.

A lot of my thinking is formed by listening to Dave Ramsey counseling couples and explaining how to move toward compromise and unity. We’ve been doing Dave Ramsey for almost 12 years, it’s been very beneficial to our marriage, and I think it’s clear that you get much better quality decision-making by working toward consensus.

That’s why I think that ideally, a couple should not move overseas (or make any other major decision) until it’s a joint decision. And the bonus is that if you follow Dave Ramsey, you’ll probably have enough money to buy the good toilet paper!

I’m just saying a hectic international move is less important than my husband.

Why would it be a choice? Are there literally no jobs in the entire United States?

 

[Xantippe]

Instead, ignore all of that which doesn’t agree with my preconceived notion about marriage which is: Any time your husband doesn’t do exactly what you want him to in the time frame you want him to, you need to fight him. Don’t ever stop Demanding your own way. And be sure to fight him on every single issue regardless of how trivial.

I don’t think anybody is saying that.

Because you’re human, too. It’s okay. The world won’t end if you don’t get your way on every little thing in life, I promise

Again, who is saying that?

 

[Mi_Rose]

Oh my goodness.
My husband loves me enough to value my opinion.

 

[Lea101]

I’m just saying a hectic international move is less important than my husband. Keeping priorities right: God/Church, Husband/Marriage, Children and it’s a slam dunk easy choice - trust your husband in his choice or fight him. My husband and marriage are far more important & valuable to me than my location. I left living on the beach to live in a desert for our marriage and I loved the beach, walked with the sand between my toes & breeze in my hair every day, but I don’t miss it. Haven’t even visited in years. It’d have been a family tragedy of I had picked the Pacific Ocean over my husband.

Is your marriage really in such a way that if you disagree, your family falls apart? I sincerely doubt so, tbh. I don’t think it’s that fragile given how highly you talk of it!

Marriages should not fall apart because of a disagreement. If it does, there were clearly bigger issues besides the wife’s refusal (eg Pride). My mother was extremely submissive. Extremely. I’ve never heard her challenge him on anything, and I honestly wish she did for the sake of her children (growing up to see that kind of behavior obviously gave us warped ideas about gender and marriage). Nevertheless, the marriage was bad. Because I’m sure you would agree, it takes more than that.

And we’re not saying that the wife would be rude and demand it like a controlling person. Even secular marriage experts would say that it would be wrong. But to say ‘hold up, let’s not make any decisions yet. Let’s go over the details. What are the cons? Pros?’, do more research, share about their feelings about the move etc isn’t wrong at all.

It’s very uncharitable of you to assume that most of us meant that wives need to fight their husbands about everything.

Actually the only thing I’ve been hearing from most of the people posting here is: who cares what the Church teaches through the Bible & the Magistarium have been teaching consistently for 2,000 year? Instead, ignore all of that which doesn’t agree with my preconceived notion about marriage which is: Any time your husband doesn’t do exactly what

Read the Catechism of the Catholic Church. A valid Marriage is indissolvable, but yes there are situations where spouses can choose to live apart. St. Monica, stayed and as a result her husband and at least one of her 3 children were converted to the Church and saved. When making decisions, we can consider the impacts both temporally and eternally. A Catholic abused women has options - neither of them good

To quickly address this (because I think this is one of the posts that would get this thread locked or something): a Catholic wife can and should leave in an abusive situation. She should consult a priest and additional help (eg psychologist, women’s shelter) to determine her best possible course of action.

 

[Wife.of.Gabriel]

The marriage is on trouble the moment a husband abuses his wife, not when the wife leaves to save her life.

I know of cases where a woman is murdered by her husband or boyfriend after leaving the abusive relationship. Leaving doesn’t always save lives. Sometimes, but not always.

I would never advise an abused spouse ( husbands can get abused too) to stay in hopes of the other converting. In fact it enables the abuser in their sin.

Maybe in some cases, but in case of St. Monica, it led to the abusers eternal salvation.

It’s a lot to consider when involved in an abusive relationship whether it’s safer to stay or leave, what impact staying or leaving would have on the children, etc. I’d never judge a woman for what she decided was best for herself and anyone else involved.

 

[Wife.of.Gabriel]

It’s very uncharitable of you to assume that most of us meant that wives need to fight their husbands about everything.

I’m sorry you feel I was uncharitable with you. But reading the posts here, perpetual fighting for a wife to demand her own way in every situation regardless how petty is exactly what is sounds like many here are very strongly advocating.

And anyone who advocates for following the teachings of the Catholic Church, which calls for the wife to submit (rather than demand her own way) gets immediately pounced on by multiple posters here.

It’s a Catholic site, so I’d have expected more people here to advocate for Catholic Church Teachings on this issue.

 

[Wife.of.Gabriel]

To quickly address this (because I think this is one of the posts that would get this thread locked or something): a Catholic wife can and should leave in an abusive situation. She should consult a priest and additional help (eg psychologist, women’s shelter) to determine her best possible course of action.

Knowing of women who’ve been killed after leaving, I’d never personally advocate either way to a domestic violence victim. But I would share any and all resources I know of to help her regardless of her decision to stay or leave. In some situations, leaving can be more dangerous than staying. And in others, staying can be more dangerous. I would hope she’d(or he) would speak to a priest and a domestic violence counselor and an attorney and any other relevant expert before making their decision to stay or leave.