What exactly does this whole submission to the husband thing mean?

[Xantippe]

But reading the posts here, perpetual fighting for a wife to demand her own way in every situation regardless how petty is exactly what is sounds like many here are very strongly advocating.

Would you care to show us those quotes?

Also, bear in mind that it takes two to fight.

 

[Wife.of.Gabriel]

Marriages should not fall apart because of a disagreement

Agreed, so why bother wasting time arguing over every little thing rather than submitting? At my age, many people I know have died. Life is precious. Every moment we have on earth is precious. Why waste a moment of it arguing with the only person in life you specifically chose for yourself. Husband (or wife) could be gone in an instant due to an unexpected accident or disease. Jesus in His wisdom calls wives to submit to their husbands. Why not obey Him by obeying him? Should endless arguments with your husband be what your children remember about you after you’re dead? Seriously, I ask because that’s literally all that 3 of my children remember about their birthmom, that she never ever submitted to her husband, but instead fought with him endlessly over nothing important. Is that the legacy you want for yourself? The only memories your children have about you? I hope not.

 

[Xantippe]

Agreed, so why bother wasting time arguing over every little thing rather than submitting?

Nobody here is advocating “arguing over every little thing.”

Why waste a moment of it arguing with the only person in life you specifically chose for yourself.

Nobody here is recommending constant arguments.

But if there is a disagreement, it can be a good exercise to work it out and come to a mutually satisfactory arrangement that both can be happy with, rather than going forward with a major decision that doesn’t work for both members of the couple.

Should endless arguments with your husband be what your children remember about you after you’re dead?

Is anybody here describing themselves as having “endless arguments”?

I certainly don’t have that going on at my home. Here are some reasons why not:

–I know what is and isn’t a big deal
–I have reasonable expectations of my kids and husband and myself
–My husband has reasonable expectations of the kids, me and himself
–Our goal is to reach consensus and to move forward
–As time has gone by, we have larger and larger areas where we’ve settled disagreements and figured out how to do things so that it is fair to everybody at our house.

Things run pretty smoothly, if I do say so.

Seriously, I ask because that’s literally all that 3 of my children remember about their birthmom, that she never ever submitted to her husband, but instead fought with him endlessly over nothing important.

There’s something wrong with anybody (of either sex) who acts like that.

 

[Lea101]

Tbh I don’t really know why you’re embellishing my arguments with information I did not bring up at all?

I mean…i did mention that people need to give in at times to keep the peace. My point is that it should not always be the wife ‘because she’s the wife’. I’ve said that and I’m sure you read it. So why make up strawman arguments?

I think it’s concerning that you think that it’s ‘fighting’ or an ‘argument’, when we are saying that couples should discuss with each other first and coming to a mutual agreement. Please stop pushing this narrative, we all agree that fighting is not good in a marriage. Or most relationships for that matter.

Seriously, I ask because that’s literally all that 3 of my children remember about their birthmom, that she never ever submitted to her husband, but instead fought with him endlessly over nothing important. Is that the legacy you want for yourself? The only memories your children have about you? I hope not

That’s unfortunate for them. My mother was submissive till she died. Let me assure you we do not sit around admiring her for that. Even my dad wished she would have prevented him from some decisions he made.

Also I have memories of her having fun with us, her teaching us things, her praying for us etc. I promise you there’s more to a wife’s legacy that her ‘obedience’ to a fallible man.

 

[Sarcelle]

I would have to join others here and ask you, who actually advocated for the wife to continually defy her husband and continually get her way?

You seem to be shadow boxing, arguing against ideas that were never stated by any poster.

We are suggesting a balanced approach with each partner working for a solution that will benefit both of them and the family. Compromise if need be.

Sometimes one would acquiesce and sometimes it’s the other’s turn. It’s like ballroom dancing the man leads but the woman does her part.

 

[lonegreywolf20]

I have never been a leader, and never will be a leader. My next wife, who is my girlfriend knows this and accepts it and has no issues with it.

We will have an egalitarian marriage. Not a marriage where she submits to me because I do not want that type of marriage.

 

[Wife.of.Gabriel]

I’m sorry, but I dont have time to go through every post and quote all those comments to make it easier for you. But you can always go back and read them all.

We are suggesting a balanced approach with each partner working for a solution that will benefit both of them and the family. Compromise if need be.

Like a Church Council without a Pope? Except God created families with a Husband/Father as the head of the family, just as the Jesus is head of His Church and God the Father is head of the original “family” of the Most Holy Trinity as Pope John Paul II used to explain and Scott Hahn explains.
1 Corinthians 11:3 describes in detail the line of Authority established by God.

What has repeatedly been advocated here is to never accept a decision that the wife doesn’t agree with. That the husband does Not have the ultimate authority for his family in those extraordinarily rare situations where husband and wife have tried but are unsuccessful at coming together at an agreement on an issue (like do we force our 13 yr old baptised Catholic attend Mass with us when he doesn’t want to go - it’s either yes or no… after a discussion, he knew my thoughts but didn’t agree & made his decision, I submitted to my husband’s decision and later when we both we near a priest, without even asking him or mentioning the situation, the priest told us the correct answer & turns out my husband was exactly right on the issue… imagine if I’d thrown a fit* over a situation demanding my own way after all I Knew I was right about it, only to find out later I was actually in the wrong or imagine if my husband had let me have my way and we’d forced our son against his will to attend Mass, only to find out it’s wrong and then have to deal with the aftermath of additional rebellion resulting for forcing him, but since I obeyed & submitted to my husband, not only did we do the right thing for my son but now, months later, he’s Asking US to pray the Rosary as a family & asking us to attend Catholic Youth Retreats & Catholic Youth group even though he still claims he’s “Not a Catholic”) or when the husband asks for (name removed by moderator)ut and then makes a decision he feels is best (like whether or not he wants to bring home a very heavy piece of furniture that he’ll Not have help carrying - he brought it home, my Dad calls him Superman because of his tremendous strength).

Have a family run like a headless body is what is being advocated here. Refusal to accept the leadership established by God for the family. Just ignore the Scripture passages that you don’t agree with, like the husband is head of his wife in Corinthians, just like Jesus is head of man.

Yup, I definitely don’t agree with going against the Church on this issue. I do wish everyone here luck. I’m going to stop posting here as I’ve got other more productive things to do with the time I have left on this earth. Peace.

 

[Sarcelle]

Oh good grief.

If you read my post nowhere did I say that I was against the husband being the spiritual leader.

Nowhere. In fact, I stated the opposite.

It’s kind of hard to argue with someone who doesn’t read what I actually write and continues to argue against something that was never written.

 

[Xantippe]

imagine if I’d thrown a fit over a situation demanding my own way after all

You keep mentioning “throwing a fit” as the wife’s only response to disagreeing with her husband.

Again, this is not how adults ever ought to behave when they disagree.

I also have to point out that “throwing a fit” is not a woman-only thing. I now realize as an adult that my dad did it very regularly when I was growing up if something happened that wasn’t up to his standards. It took me decades to realize how wrong he was to do that. And it’s wrong no matter who is doing it–man or woman.

just like Jesus is head of man.

I think you mean the Church?

 

[Gingersnaps4]

A woman’s feelings are never valid, apparently. Any viewpoint she has that is counter to her husband’s, no matter how well-reasoned, is still simply “Throwing A Fit”.

 

[lonegreywolf20]

I tend to throw more fits than my girlfriend does or my ex-wife ever did.

I stress easily!

 

[Gingersnaps4]

If the posts were written by the husband, he would be considered a gaslighting narcissist with the way the exact same behaviors are described in the most flattering way for the husband, and the least flattering for the wife.

 

[Xantippe]

(like do we force our 13 yr old baptised Catholic attend Mass with us when he doesn’t want to go - it’s either yes or no… after a discussion, he knew my thoughts but didn’t agree & made his decision, I submitted to my husband’s decision and later when we both we near a priest, without even asking him or mentioning the situation, the priest told us the correct answer & turns out my husband was exactly right on the issue… imagine if I’d thrown a fit over a situation demanding my own way after all I Knew I was right about it, only to find out later I was actually in the wrong or imagine if my husband had let me have my way and we’d forced our son against his will to attend Mass, only to find out it’s wrong and then have to deal with the aftermath of additional rebellion resulting for forcing him, but since I obeyed & submitted to my husband, not only did we do the right thing for my son but now, months later, he’s Asking US to pray the Rosary as a family & asking us to attend Catholic Youth Retreats & Catholic Youth group even though he still claims he’s “Not a Catholic”)

Wonderful!

WifeofGabriel may be gone now, but for those of you who are still around, I’d like to point out something. Notice that in this situation, WifeofGabriel wanted to force the son to go to Mass but the husband did not, WifeofGabriel bowed to her husband’s opinion, and everything turned out perfectly.

But what if everything were the same, but the roles were reversed? What if it were the husband being wanting to force the teen to go to Mass and the wife wanting to deescalate the situation? Would it still be such an excellent thing for the wife to acquiesce? Would it have turned out so perfectly if they did it the other way?

It seems to me that this is not so much a question of wifely submission but of practical wisdom, and the correct answer depends on the content of the dispute, not on the gender of the disputants. This reminds me of another CAF thread from years ago, where the argument in favor of wifely acquiescence was (I kid you not), what if the wife wants to take the family to Disneyland while the husband says no because the family can’t afford it? Again, the answer is that this is about the nuts and bolts of the problem, not the genders of the people on either side. There could be disputes where it really is 6 of one, half a dozen of the other and family peace is more important than getting your way, but you can’t use a case with a clear wrong answer to argue for wifely submission–because it could just as easily be the husband who was in the wrong.

(I personally would make sure that the kid had to do something extra. For example, we have a kid who doesn’t want to go to high school youth group, so to “buy” that privilege, she needs to read a catechism section every week and report to her dad.)

 

[Xantippe]

I tend to throw more fits than my girlfriend does or my ex-wife ever did.

I stress easily!

Me too!

This is totally not a gender thing.

 

[Gingersnaps4]

Chances are that the opposite has and does happen in all marriages, with the husband being wrong at times. But that should be brushed off and never be used as an example. Whatever he says goes, the end. It’s awesome when he’s right, and we don’t want to be seen throwing a fit!

 

[buffalo]

When husband and wife disagree, who is the tiebreaker?

 

[Xantippe]

When husband and wife disagree, who is the tiebreaker?

Some ideas:

–wait and see if you both still feel strongly tomorrow (you probably won’t)
–collect more options (your existing two options probably aren’t the best ones)
–look it up (husband and I have solved MANY disagreements via google)
–flip a coin
–seek third party counsel (example: call Dave Ramsey or see your pastor)
–see what the kids think (use sparingly and without letting them know that there’s a mom “side” or a dad “side”)
–let the person most affected or who is doing the work decide (example: wife chooses her preferred brand of tampons, husband decides which truck he wants, but keeping within the family budget)
–let the person who has strongest feelings decide (but you don’t get to have strong feelings about EVERYTHING)
–take turns
–split the difference
–whoever is in full possession of their mental faculties

I remember reading the “who is the tiebreaker” argument for husband as tie-breaker in C.S. Lewis and believing it as a teen/young adult, but now that I’m a grownup I realize that it’s not really how a married couple ought to operate.

I’ve known a number of little old ladies caring for husbands with Alzheimers, and it would be a recipe for disaster to use the husband as tie-breaker model. I’ve also known a couple of guys with bipolar, and they make awful decisions, and I believe it can get worse with age. In those cases, husband as tie-breaker would lead to very poor results. Note, also, that dementia and mental illness often aren’t immediately obvious–the bad choices come first, then the diagnosis. I also do a little work relating to head injury cases, and guys with that issue also have problems with decision-making. At some point, the always-obey-husband model breaks down because it assumes that the husband will always have full command of his faculties.

 

[Xantippe]

Here’s another one:

–Figure out a plan to do the thing later if it isn’t financially possible today, even if it’s a very long-term plan. “No” and “not now” are not the same thing.

Regarding turn-taking–it’s very easy to fall into the belief that EVERY SINGLE DECISION needs to be debated out on the merits and please everybody equally. Now that we have a big teen daughter to babysit, husband and I have been enjoying date nights a lot. One thing we have learned is that we don’t need to put every outing through the marital parliamentary process before we go (exhausting!). What we do instead is just take turns proposing a date night idea. Maybe I’m not wild about Greek food, but it’s husband’s turn, so he gets to decide and WHOA, this is actually a Middle Eastern place pretending to be a Greek place, with a small Middle Eastern grocery attached! And next time I get to choose. One of the many merits of this system (aside from avoiding a “discussion”) is that we get more novelty in our life and we each get something we want a lot, rather than settling on the lowest common denominator of what we can both tolerate as a couple. It makes us more adventurous as a couple, which is good.

 

[buffalo]

Here’s another one:

–Figure out a plan to do the thing later if it isn’t financially possible today, even if it’s a very long-term plan. “No” and “not now” are not the same thing.

When my wife and I did marriage prep for newly engaged, we covered much of this up front. For example - how much money can I spend without having to discuss and get “approval”. One of them responded around 25.00 the other was around 500.00 if I recall. We advised them - you have to resolve this one up front.

 

[Xantippe]

One of them responded around 25.00 the other was around 500.00 if I recall. We advised them - you have to resolve this one up front.

OH MY! That was a good catch.

I’m always shocked by people who do stuff like buying cars without checking in with their spouse.