What exactly is a "progressive Catholic?"

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formercatholic:
If memory serves me I believe that Wojtyla and Ratzinger were part of the progressive wing during Vatican 2 but that is stretching me a bit.
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Yes this is true,

Bishop Woytyla attended every session of Vatican II and in the fall of 1963 joined the council’s discussion of the Church as the “People of God.” He was appointed archbishop of Krakow on Dec. 30, 1963.

His stand on atheism deeply puzzled many of the bishops, especially those form Communist countries. Archbishop Woytyla believed that the human person should find the truth on their own and that conversion was unnecessary.

These were revolutionary ideas, especially at a time when the West braced for nuclear war and when much of the world was held captive under Communist tyranny. He further expressed his ecumenical and Modernist persuasions a week later.

He began with several previously expressed comments on the Church and the world and the president of the session was on the point of stopping him, when he quickly and skillfully captivated his audience and silenced all the noise in the auditorium. In a loud and distinct voice, he clearly explained that the Church should no longer pose as the sole dispenser of Truth and Goodness… She should, he went on, be in the owrld but not above it. … The Church must alter her teaching: she should encourage Revelation and no longer dictate it.

Although he was only forty-two when the council opened, Wojtyla made eight oral interventions in the council hall, a rather high number, and often spoke in the name of large groups of bishops from Eastern Europe. (Altogether he made 22 interventions, oral and written.) He was an unusually active member of various official drafting groups for Gaudium et Spes, and even a cheif author of what was callled the “Polish draft.” His voice was crucial to the passage of the document on religious liberty.
 
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Trelow:
Who was it that said,

“Liberalism is called progressive, because it progresses further dan further into error?”

Fr. Somebody I’ve Forgot
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I found that quote in a post of yours.
 
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formercatholic:
If memory serves me I believe that Wojtyla and Ratzinger were part of the progressive wing during Vatican 2 but that is stretching me a bit.
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Newsweek - June 20, 1983 - featured an article discribing the Marxist beliefs of John Paul II:

“With faith in Christ and borrowings from Karl Marx, John Paul II builds his own challenging gospel of work. He is not only the first pope from a socialist country, he may also be described as the first socialist pope. What he did learn from books was how to think like a Marxist as well as a Christian”

That is an exact quote!
 
Rara Avis:
Newsweek - June 20, 1983 - featured an article discribing the Marxist beliefs of John Paul II:

“With faith in Christ and borrowings from Karl Marx, John Paul II builds his own challenging gospel of work. He is not only the first pope from a socialist country, he may also be described as the first socialist pope. What he did learn from books was how to think like a Marxist as well as a Christian”

That is an exact quote!
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I heard our Pope condemn Marxism and socialism and communism.Can you find something in the Vatican archives?God Bless
 
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jimmy:
I found that quote in a post of yours.
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Thanks, I had it on a different computer.

👍
Rara Avis:
That is an exact quote!
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If anyone thinks JP the Great is a Marxist they should read:
Centesimus Annus

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_01051991_centesimus-annus_en.html

Some choice quotes:
Therefore class struggle in the Marxist sense and militarism have the same root, namely, atheism and contempt for the human person, which place the principle of force above that of reason and law.
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Marxism had promised to uproot the need for God from the human heart, but the results have shown that it is not possible to succeed in this without throwing the heart into turmoil.
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The Marxist solution has failed, but the realities of marginalization and exploitation remain in the world, especially the Third World, as does the reality of human alienation, especially in the more advanced countries.
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In modern times, this concept has been opposed by totalitarianism, which, in its Marxist-Leninist form, maintains that some people, by virtue of a deeper knowledge of the laws of the development of society, or through membership of a particular class or through contact with the deeper sources of the collective consciousness, are exempt from error and can therefore arrogate to themselves the exercise of absolute power. It must be added that totalitarianism arises out of a denial of truth in the objective sense
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Rara Avis:
Newsweek - June 20, 1983 - featured an article discribing the Marxist beliefs of John Paul II:
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If Newsweek (that bastion of conservative Catholicism) published this opinion, it must be true. Did they also mention his Masonic connections?
 
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Franciscum:
Tea? People like me don’t drink tea…
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Of course. Let me look in the back of the cabinet and see if that Jack Daniels is still there.
 
I remember attending a lecture by William F. Buckley (not to get ahead of myself, but one of the features of us ‘progressive Catholics’ is that we actually ENJOY hearing from a wide diversity of viewpoints) where he described progressive Catholics in a way that I failed to recognize. However, I will say he did it at a higher and more erudite manner than some others. Of course, I waited for Mr. Buckley to tell me what a ‘conservative Catholic’ was, but was never told.

Every Catholic – and this includes every progressive Catholic – is in a certain sense a conservative. This is true by definition. The Catholic accepts a Revelation that was once and for all delivered to the Apostles; it is part of our patrimony to conserve this Revelation and pass it on. So the question of progressive and conservative Catholic is not a doctrinal one. Doctrinally, every Catholic is conservative. It is a question of what should be the attitude of Catholics towards the Modern world. And here it is a question of attitude rather than doctrine.

Conservative Catholics have done a good job on this board of reminding me and others of the evils of the modern world. Certainly in every age, to be a Christian is to understand the Jews in Babylon when they lamented “How can I sing the Lord’s song in a strange land”. (we progressives recognize that psalm verse from an American hymn we sing at Mass). But one can go too far in rejecting the city of man. Historically, it has been the Calvinists and Jansenists who taken this to extreme. But good Catholics too can fall prey to a view that “Here we have our oasis of truth; outside there is the night; let us build up our walls, let us hold fast to the truth we have; let us not open the doors; our contact with the modern world will be an occasional edict condemning it”

Yes, there is the opposite temptation of overly embracing the modern world. Catholics should fall to neither extreme. To engage in nostalgia, defensiveness, sitting around thinking everything has gone downhill since Isabella II does little for the Church’s mission, particular the call to evangelize the world. Cardinal George of Chicago warned us of “conservative Catholicism, obsessed with particular practices and so sectarian in its outlook that it cannot serve as a sign of unity of all peoples in Christ.”

There is a great temptation to associate progressive Catholics with dissent and disloyalty to the Pope. However, history is full of example where progressive Catholics initiated movements coolly received by the authorities but eventually proved to the Holy See the wisdom of these initiatives. The Germans Kolpling and von Ketteler on justice for workers won over Leo XIII. French progressives finally won over the same Pope to order conservative Catholics to cease tying the Church to the restoration of the monarchy and to come to terms with the French Republic. Pius XI was won over to condemn the conservative political movement L”Action Francaise, which sought to tie the Church to a rightist nationalism. And the Vatican Council was won over by John Courtney Murray, SJ, (formerly under the ban) in its affirmation of religious freedom.
 
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jimmy:
Not to offend anyone. I have understood a progressive Catholic to be someone who does not always adhere to the teachings of the Church. For example there are a group of Catholics that have been trying to get the pope to declare that women can be preists. I would consider them a progressive Catholic.

It would not be a progressive Catholic to be concerned about social justice issues.

I have always thought of progressive as being synonimous to un-orthodox.

I may be wrong though.:bowdown:
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I consider such people to be Protestants…

That said, extremely orthodox Catholics can be both conservative or progressive, or even heaven forbod, moderate for that matter.

The only stereotype that dumber than the belief that every progressive is heterodox is the belief that every traditionalist is orthodox…
 
(cont)

These two social movements were the animating features of progressive Catholics. First religious freedom and the dignity of the individual, a concept much at odds with conservative Churchmen. The ultimate triumph on religious freedom was the Counciliar document on the Dignity of Man, an acceptance of everything Murray had been censored over. The modern application of these principles in American society in our times was the issue of racial justice. Progressive Catholics, often working through groups such as the National Catholic Council for Interracial Justice (NCCIJ) lead first the de-segregation of Catholic institutions and then the movement for human dignity in the rest of society. My own experience with NCCIJ, going to Catholic parishes in the South to register Blacks to vote for the first time met with varied response when I returned home. One priest told me he could not imagine why I cared about registering Negros to vote when I had a house to clean. Nevertheless, I could not imagine how anyone could do this work without a strong faith in God.

Second, is the concern for the workers and social justice. At the beginning of the industrial revolution an unheard of social transformation occurred in Europe. Families who had lived in the same small village for generations after generations, farming the same land, worshipping at the same church, tending family graves in the same yard, were uprooted to new industrial centers and began a new life working in factories. Parish churches (protestant and Catholic) existed off an endowment. Small towns with a single parish church turned into industrial centers of 100,000 workers and their families. And no new churches were built. The workers were left without the sacraments or instruction in the faith because pastors had no intention of dividing or sharing with the social underclass the endowment they lived off.

The progressive impulse here was not originally social justice. Within English Protestantism, the Anglican clergyman John Wesley had no patience for this and declared “the world is my parish” and went into the developing industrial centers to preach the Gospel ignoring the niceties of Church of England protocol. Catholic France had no Wesley. But Germany had Kolping. He formed Catholic workingmen’s clubs – Kolping Societies – throughout Germany and soon forced the church to provide pastoral care to the ignored workers. Like Wesley, he did not start out as a social justice activist. H simply wanted to spiritually care for the workers who the conservative establishment disregarded. But once he began to share their lives, a Catholic theory of social justice began to develop. Kolping was aided by the progressive bishop of Mainz, von Ketteler. He provided the intellectual basis which lead to Leo XIII endorsing this initiative.

In America, it was Msgr. John A. Ryan who was the intellectual workhorse behind Catholic social theory. From his office with the bishops conference, he had more to say about the design of New Deal programs than anyone in government.

(its late; I’m old. I’ts half done. I’ll finish this later)
 
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katherine2:
Of course. Let me look in the back of the cabinet and see if that Jack Daniels is still there.
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Now you are suggesting that people like me drink whiskey, and rotgut at that?

Try again.
 
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Franciscum:
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katherine2:
Of course. Let me look in the back of the cabinet and see if that Jack Daniels is still there.
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Now you are suggesting that people like me drink whiskey, and rotgut at that?

Try again.
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Cut it out, we had a thread closed for this once already today.
 
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Franciscum:
Now you are suggesting that people like me drink whiskey, and rotgut at that?

Try again.
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If we are going to be friends, you are going to have to learn. 😉
 
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katherine2:
If we are going to be friends, you are going to have to learn. 😉
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You had some nice posts going there Katherine. I hope you finish them.

Have a great night.

Peace
 
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Franciscum:
I consider such people to be Protestants…

That said, extremely orthodox Catholics can be both conservative or progressive, or even heaven forbod, moderate for that matter.

The only stereotype that dumber than the belief that every progressive is heterodox is the belief that every traditionalist is orthodox…
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I didn’t call it the opposite of traditionalism.
 
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dennisknapp:
I know what people have been posting. I just would like for someone who considers themselves progressive to give an answer themselves.

This is only fair.
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Well, that’s exactly why I posted the links I posted. They were from people who say they are progressive Catholics! They were NOT links from people who don’t consider themselves progressive Catholics giving their definitions.
 
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pnewton:
If Newsweek (that bastion of conservative Catholicism) published this opinion, it must be true. Did they also mention his Masonic connections?
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This post was meant to show what people were saying … Not meant to protray Newsweek as the next best source to the bible!

Sorry I should have pointed that out! At no way shape or form do I consider any journalist rag to be Truth!

It’s just interesting to see what the rest of the world thinks!
 
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