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CHRISTINE77
Guest
The worst thing is to disregard a woman’s soul when you are attracted to her body. Women are more, much more, than their bodies.
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Jonatello
Guest
i agree wholeheartedly. that’s why i said it’s probably better to allow yourself to naturally have those moments of sexual awakening, but to couple those moments with thoughts of her higher value, thus keeping the lustful “using-her-body-for-self” feelings in check.
i just …
A: disagree that natural instances of sexual arousal = disregard for a woman’s soul
and
B: disagree that the correct method is to train yourself to never have any sexual reaction when noticing a woman, thus only appreciating a woman’s “purely aesthetic” beauty unless you’re directly about to have marital sex with her.
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JRKH
Guest
Perhaps what we are missing here is Jesus true meaning when He said those words and the entire passage around this particular statement. Jesus is trying to convey to us that it isn’t just our actions that are sinful but the thoughts that precede the actions. In the same passage in Matthew Jesus takes the commandment against Murder and expands it to include being angry with your neighbor. He warns us not to make vows but to live uprightly in all things, to not seek revenge or hold evil thoughts against anyone.
All of these things Jesus preached so that we should understand that it is how we think that tells us where our hearts truly lie. If our Hearts upon God then our thoughts will follow to God and we will not sin in either thought or action. If we allow our hearts and thougths to turn from God then we are falling into sin. The particulars don’t matter so much as the single issue of where is your heart. Where is your treasure?
If you look at an attractive female, are you seeing a desirable woman, and do you desire her, or are you seeing a child of God worthy of Christian Love?
Peace
James
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CHRISTINE77
Guest
Amen!
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Jonatello
Guest
Hi James
I put some asterisks around your “or” because my point is those 2 sentiments do not have to be mutually exclusive. It is not always an “or”, it can be an “and”.
And if you truly see her as a child of God worthy of Christian Love, then your innate sexual desire for her will have a much better chance of being placed in check without having to artificially delete altogether your tendency to be awakened at naturally arousing moments.
In other words, I think we have confused “lustful” with “sexually responsive”.
J
JRKH
Guest
I believe you may be right in your last comment. However in your earlier comment about it not needing to be either/or, I would caution that noting that a female is attractive and desiring her are two different things. If you simply note it, even if there is an “involuntary reaction” this is not sinful or at least only marginally so. However if you “desire her” that would indeed be sinful as it would involve dwelling on the thought and thus you would be culpable for that voluntary “thought”.Hi James
I put some asterisks around your “or” because my point is those 2 sentiments do not have to be mutually exclusive. It is not always an “or”, it can be an “and”.
And if you truly see her as a child of God worthy of Christian Love, then your innate sexual desire for her will have a much better chance of being placed in check without having to artificially delete altogether your tendency to be awakened at naturally arousing moments.
In other words, I think we have confused “lustful” with “sexually responsive”.
Overall I believe we need to understand Jesus words and teachings in the entire passage in Matthew as well as in other parts of the Gospel where He is trying to get the people to see beyond the “Law” and the actions connected with it.
So often we can find ourselves trying to define just where the “sin” line is. sort of like when we are children and we try to see how much we can “get-away-with”. But this is wrong tinking. It isn’t a question of what is the rule and am I breaking it. The real question is where is our focus and our Love. Is it a love of God and wishing not to offend Him? Or is it a Love of self and wishing, by either thought or action, to indulge some “disordered”, and therefore sinful, Lust.
And we must remember that it is not only “sex” we can lust after. Any inordinate desire can be described as “Lusting”. For instance, “He lusts for poser”. I’ve seen people “lust” after many things of this world while neglecting the things of God. It’s sad.
Peace
James
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jean8
Guest
christine77,You could find someone attractive as a human being, liking the way they look and act and think and feel. That doesn’t mean you want to have sex with them. You can be attracted to a person on many levels. But if you mean finding someone sexually attractive, that means you have one thing on your mind and you better get it out of the gutter!
“Whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her, hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.” Mt.5:28
See also 1 Pet.2:11, Phil.4:8, Eph.4:29,
who ever said it was easy to be a christian. Shall we go to confession.
God bless you,
jean8
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Shin
Guest
If you’re not concerned about keeping your heart clean and pure. . .
I can say no more. Positives ‘alongside’ do not suffice. It must be quashed utterly and completely so that it is not even a problem anymore.
Disgust works. It has worked for saints, it has worked for people I know personally, so that they are not even troubled by the temptations of the demons in their dreams. If you wish for success in this matter, I urge you to try something that works and not new inventions that have not.
Reject the ‘wisdom’ of the world. It is not wisdom, it is wishful thinking of impure motivation. What I have said is contrary to worldly teaching I understand it is hard. But it -works-.
Consider this carefully and be open to this hopeful thought.
Benedicite, I pray.
St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Dominic Savio, St. Benedict, ora pro nobis.
I can say no more. Positives ‘alongside’ do not suffice. It must be quashed utterly and completely so that it is not even a problem anymore.
Disgust works. It has worked for saints, it has worked for people I know personally, so that they are not even troubled by the temptations of the demons in their dreams. If you wish for success in this matter, I urge you to try something that works and not new inventions that have not.
Reject the ‘wisdom’ of the world. It is not wisdom, it is wishful thinking of impure motivation. What I have said is contrary to worldly teaching I understand it is hard. But it -works-.
Consider this carefully and be open to this hopeful thought.
Benedicite, I pray.
St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Dominic Savio, St. Benedict, ora pro nobis.
O
osteo94
Guest
Disgust works ?
Disgusted at the nature of man ?
Disgusted at our lack of ability to understand God’s plan I hope.
If thinking thoughts, WITHOUT action, makes me a sinner, then all those good deeds, I thought about, AND DIDN’T DO, should count too.
Time for a small bit of reality here.
Disgusted at the nature of man ?
Disgusted at our lack of ability to understand God’s plan I hope.
If thinking thoughts, WITHOUT action, makes me a sinner, then all those good deeds, I thought about, AND DIDN’T DO, should count too.
Time for a small bit of reality here.
J
JRKH
Guest
As to how thoughts relate to sinning I suggest you look at the entire chapters of Matthew 5, 6, and 7. Also Look at Matt 15:10-20. Again, Look at Matthew 22 vs 35-40 and also Matthew 23:13-39 with particular attention to vss 24-28.
In all these places Jesus exhorts us to turn our lives wholly to God. To be Spiritually Clean, Perfected, and Holy.
The Pharasees “Acted” Holy but their thoughts were worldly. How did Jesus regard them? How did Jesus regard “ritual” vs the thoughts and intentions behind the ritual?
While it is OK for us to recognize that we are fallen creatures, and that our thoughts and even actions may not live up to our hopes, this does not excuse the thoughts, particularly when we make excusses for them or make light of the transgression. These things do not make us worthy of the Kingdom.
When we try to discect these things and thus find out “what-I-can-get-away-with”, we are acting like the pharasees who were more concerned with outward appearances than inner holiness. I will not deny my own failings in these matters but niether will I make excusses for my failings.
Peace
James
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osteo94
Guest
The Pharasees true actions were not holy, even though I am sure they were thinking (thus their thoughts) they were, by keeping the laws, and thus earning their way to heaven.
I think a tiny bit of action, something you actually do for some one else, will be a much better way to judge a man’s heart than what he thought of and dimissed without intending ( or doing ) actions.
Which begs the question, is praying an action, or a thought ?
It is popular to pray about things these days, and never lift a finger to do anything to help others, or oppose intrinsic evil (abortion comes to mind here most readily). I would like to see more verbs, and less verbage from all of the Catholic community.
I think a tiny bit of action, something you actually do for some one else, will be a much better way to judge a man’s heart than what he thought of and dimissed without intending ( or doing ) actions.
Which begs the question, is praying an action, or a thought ?
It is popular to pray about things these days, and never lift a finger to do anything to help others, or oppose intrinsic evil (abortion comes to mind here most readily). I would like to see more verbs, and less verbage from all of the Catholic community.
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CHRISTINE77
Guest
Praying is thought in action.
Doing good deeds is admirable, but it is important for all of us to acknowlege our own sins so that we may humbly come to God for repentence and try with all our hearts and souls to sin no more. Of couse we are human, and prone to error, but the more we try, the more we change and become closer to God.
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osteo94
Guest
No wonder abortion is now legal, no wonder why sexuality is misused, no wonder God is being stripped from our nation’s heritage.
Pray for direction from God, then go DO something.
Pray for direction from God, then go DO something.
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CHRISTINE77
Guest
I’m with you! But my point is, by just being more aligned with God, people become better, and act better towards thier fellow men. They aren’t guided by lust and greed and all the corrupt moral practices that have become so common today among people who discount and disbelieve in God.
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John_Tersidi
Guest
We are humans. We must be aware of that, It’s our nature to encounter lusts, sinful tendencies and temptations everyday. But I have always practiced what Rev. Joel Osteend have suggested : “Don’t feed them” the moment you meet them.It works.
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chevalier
Guest
How are you going to justify harbour disgust with what God created, else than by the intended reasons?If you’re not concerned about keeping your heart clean and pure. . .
I can say no more. Positives ‘alongside’ do not suffice. It must be quashed utterly and completely so that it is not even a problem anymore.
Disgust works. It has worked for saints, it has worked for people I know personally, so that they are not even troubled by the temptations of the demons in their dreams. If you wish for success in this matter, I urge you to try something that works and not new inventions that have not.
Reject the ‘wisdom’ of the world. It is not wisdom, it is wishful thinking of impure motivation. What I have said is contrary to worldly teaching I understand it is hard. But it -works-.
Consider this carefully and be open to this hopeful thought.
Benedicite, I pray.
St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Dominic Savio, St. Benedict, ora pro nobis.
T
Tarek_Chidiac
Guest
Totally with:thumbsup:
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JRKH
Guest
I agree with your last statement. In fact I will go further and say that we will almost always “act out” our current faith or spiritual state. No matter how much we wish or hope to be better, no matter that we perform all of the prescribed acts such as attending mass, it is what we think say and do - every day and in every way - that really demonstrates our faith.
It is this fact that I was trying to address by recommending that we read teh Gospels in “Chunks” instead in snippets. We need to understand the fullness of Christ’s teachings and be willing to act upon them in hour hearts so as to draw closer to God and to love Him “WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND” (Mt 22:37)
So if we love God in the way shown above, should we even have such “involuntary” reactions. Perhaps yes perhaps no, but in any case as soon as we become aware of them, we either act and avoid sin, or we harbor the thought and “commit adultery in your heart”.
As for why abortion is legal, it is legal because the US Supreme Court made it so by judical fiat and ever since then most efforts by state and federal legislatures, even broadly supported efforts, have been shot down in court.
But this is a topic for another thread so I will say no more here.
Peace
James
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JRKH
Guest
Not sure what your “faith preference” is since your profile doesn’t say, but the point of my posts on this thread is that Jesus, and the road to holiness, is not about discecting the tit-and-tattle of “the rules”. That, in and of itself, is worldy thinking.
I’m sure you aer correct in that they felt assured of salvation based upon their position and in that they were as misguided as those who ascribe to OSAS today. Salvation is a journey into holiness and the road is both long and narrow.
There is a certain class of “sin” that we really don’t consider sin simply because it is involuntary or, as you say, “thought of and dismissed”. Most people, myself included, would not really consider this more than a slight venial sin at most. However if we do not fight this, if we become lenient about such thoughts with ourselves, we cannot advance in holiness for one thing Jesus exhorted His disciples to do is never rest in seeking perfection. If we retain and entertain such “lustful” thoughts then we are “inadvertantly offending God”, we are, “intentionally offending God”.
I might point out that there are a great many Catholics out there who are in fact “doing”. A great many are doing much “under the radar” as it were. They Pray, and bring up their children right. They picket in front of abortion clincs and offer alternative clinics to families. They organize letter campaigns and they support many efforts of many types financially. Another one of the Lord’s teachings is, when you do good, do it in secret so that you have reward in heaven and not on earth. Be careful not to judge only by what you see.
Peace
James
In certain idividuals I’m sure you are correct, but the Pharasees “class” as a whole were more concerned with their own position, power and wealth. This is one of the things that so angered Jesus about them. They had become much more interested in the worldy and financial aspects of the temple and their function than they were with Honoring God and dispensing Justice.
I’m sure you aer correct in that they felt assured of salvation based upon their position and in that they were as misguided as those who ascribe to OSAS today. Salvation is a journey into holiness and the road is both long and narrow.
I would not presume to judge a man’s heart, except that I am sinful and sometimes catch myself doing just that. What I am talking about is our walk in faith and our call to holiness, for we are all, as catholics, called to holiness. Therefore we need to seek out every sin and sinful tendancey so that we may recognize it and defeat it.
There is a certain class of “sin” that we really don’t consider sin simply because it is involuntary or, as you say, “thought of and dismissed”. Most people, myself included, would not really consider this more than a slight venial sin at most. However if we do not fight this, if we become lenient about such thoughts with ourselves, we cannot advance in holiness for one thing Jesus exhorted His disciples to do is never rest in seeking perfection. If we retain and entertain such “lustful” thoughts then we are “inadvertantly offending God”, we are, “intentionally offending God”.
Prayer is bringing our thoughts and emotions in line with God. This has the effect of increasing our access to God’s grace. This in turn provides us with much needed courage and faith so that we are more inclined to DO something. Actually praying is one of the most important things we can do both for ourselves and others. But it must be “right” and “real” prayer. Prayer with intent and not just recitation.
May I assume you are not Catholic?
I might point out that there are a great many Catholics out there who are in fact “doing”. A great many are doing much “under the radar” as it were. They Pray, and bring up their children right. They picket in front of abortion clincs and offer alternative clinics to families. They organize letter campaigns and they support many efforts of many types financially. Another one of the Lord’s teachings is, when you do good, do it in secret so that you have reward in heaven and not on earth. Be careful not to judge only by what you see.
Peace
James
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Shin
Guest
I’m not going to nuance this… unless you attempt it one hundred percent you will fail at it. It is worth attempting and more for someone who does not yet understand it or is undecided – for people enslaved to lust who deny their very enslavement – all can see good results.
You have to give up everything for the sake of God, that is, ‘the world, the flesh, and the devil’. You say ‘God made me this way’ far from it! That is concupiscence and worse.
Do not treat occasions of deadly sin lightly and say you should admire the good in those occasions. Far from it, your very excessive admiration that draws you to not give it up is a temptation and enslavement of the devils.
‘Deny your desires and you will find what your heart longs for. For how do you know if any desire of yours is according to God?’
‘God desires from you the least degree of purity of conscience more than all the works you can perform.’
St. John of the Cross
‘Those who reach the goal without falling do so through hating themselves and all worldly desires, distractions, pleasures and preoccupations, for this is what ‘denying oneself’ amounts to. Hence everyone expels himself from the kingdom by his own choice, through not embracing suffering and denying himself for the sake of the truth, but wanting to enjoy something of this world in addition to that divine longing, and not surrendering the whole inclination of his will to God. This may be understood from a single example. On examining himself a man realizes that what he is so eager to do is wicked. At first he feels doubt about it in his heart. Next, the measure and balance in his conscience make it clear inwardly whether the bias inclines to love for God or love for the world; and after that he proceeds to outward action.’
St. Symeon Metaphrastis
'We shall see going up to heaven, in body and soul, that father, that mother, that sister, that neighbor, who were here with us, with whom we have lived, but whom we have not imitated; while we shall go down body and soul to burn in hell. The devils will rush to overwhelm us. All the devils whose advice we followed will come to torment us. . . My children, if you saw a man prepare a great pile of wood. . . and when you asked him what he was doing, he were to answer you, “I am preparing a fire to burn me,” what would you think? And if you saw this same man set fire to the pile, and when it was lighted through himself upon it, what would you say?
This is what we do when we commit sin.’
St. Jean Marie Baptiste Vianney, the Cure of Ars
‘The conscience is called an ‘adversary’ because it opposes us when we wish to carry out the desires of our flesh; and if we do not listen to our conscience, it delivers us into the hands of our enemies.’
St. Isaiah the Solitary
You have to give up everything for the sake of God, that is, ‘the world, the flesh, and the devil’. You say ‘God made me this way’ far from it! That is concupiscence and worse.
Do not treat occasions of deadly sin lightly and say you should admire the good in those occasions. Far from it, your very excessive admiration that draws you to not give it up is a temptation and enslavement of the devils.
‘Deny your desires and you will find what your heart longs for. For how do you know if any desire of yours is according to God?’
‘God desires from you the least degree of purity of conscience more than all the works you can perform.’
St. John of the Cross
‘Those who reach the goal without falling do so through hating themselves and all worldly desires, distractions, pleasures and preoccupations, for this is what ‘denying oneself’ amounts to. Hence everyone expels himself from the kingdom by his own choice, through not embracing suffering and denying himself for the sake of the truth, but wanting to enjoy something of this world in addition to that divine longing, and not surrendering the whole inclination of his will to God. This may be understood from a single example. On examining himself a man realizes that what he is so eager to do is wicked. At first he feels doubt about it in his heart. Next, the measure and balance in his conscience make it clear inwardly whether the bias inclines to love for God or love for the world; and after that he proceeds to outward action.’
St. Symeon Metaphrastis
'We shall see going up to heaven, in body and soul, that father, that mother, that sister, that neighbor, who were here with us, with whom we have lived, but whom we have not imitated; while we shall go down body and soul to burn in hell. The devils will rush to overwhelm us. All the devils whose advice we followed will come to torment us. . . My children, if you saw a man prepare a great pile of wood. . . and when you asked him what he was doing, he were to answer you, “I am preparing a fire to burn me,” what would you think? And if you saw this same man set fire to the pile, and when it was lighted through himself upon it, what would you say?
This is what we do when we commit sin.’
St. Jean Marie Baptiste Vianney, the Cure of Ars
‘The conscience is called an ‘adversary’ because it opposes us when we wish to carry out the desires of our flesh; and if we do not listen to our conscience, it delivers us into the hands of our enemies.’
St. Isaiah the Solitary
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