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Jonatello
Guest
Wow you really hit the nail on the head and did so beautifully. This is pretty much exactly how i feel. Great words, thank you
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JRKH
Guest
I am currently reading a wonderful book called “The Fulfillment Of All Desire” and found this:
Francis (de Sales) identifies three steps in the process of temptation. First, sin is proposed to the soul. Then, we are either pleased or displeased by the proposal. Finally, we consent to ro rejct the temptation to sin…Francis points out that a crucial decision is actually made right after the temptation presensts itself, at the stage where we are either initially pleased or displeased by it…the decision to take pleasure in thinking about it for a while is both dangerous and damaging in itself. Although we may fnid ourselves taking an almost involuntary pleasure or delight in a temptation, as soon as we become aware of it we need ot immediately reject both the pleasure and the temptation.
To Dally ofer a tempation is to run the risk of weakening our resolve and make it more likely that, at that time or at a future time, we will consent to it.
As pointed out in here, there is a crucial step between having a thought and “acting on a thought” where we decide whether we like the thought or not. We need to recognize this when discussing these matters.
It is not that we can make a clear and difinative line that “this is a sin and this is not”, about thoughts. It is, as Jesus tried to explain, a question of what is in our hearts. Are we willing to offend God and harm our soul even in the small way of just “thinking about it” (whatever evil “it” might be).
Peace
James
Francis (de Sales) identifies three steps in the process of temptation. First, sin is proposed to the soul. Then, we are either pleased or displeased by the proposal. Finally, we consent to ro rejct the temptation to sin…Francis points out that a crucial decision is actually made right after the temptation presensts itself, at the stage where we are either initially pleased or displeased by it…the decision to take pleasure in thinking about it for a while is both dangerous and damaging in itself. Although we may fnid ourselves taking an almost involuntary pleasure or delight in a temptation, as soon as we become aware of it we need ot immediately reject both the pleasure and the temptation.
To Dally ofer a tempation is to run the risk of weakening our resolve and make it more likely that, at that time or at a future time, we will consent to it.
As pointed out in here, there is a crucial step between having a thought and “acting on a thought” where we decide whether we like the thought or not. We need to recognize this when discussing these matters.
It is not that we can make a clear and difinative line that “this is a sin and this is not”, about thoughts. It is, as Jesus tried to explain, a question of what is in our hearts. Are we willing to offend God and harm our soul even in the small way of just “thinking about it” (whatever evil “it” might be).
Peace
James
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daeve
Guest
Why, thank you. That was very kind of you to say so.Wow you really hit the nail on the head and did so beautifully. This is pretty much exactly how i feel. Great words, thank you
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Tarek_Chidiac
Guest
To be quite frank, It’s so far dificult to live our faith as Jesus wanted us to. The gate is really narrow. We can’t but by our Lord gift. let’s continue praying for that.
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Contarini
Guest
No way does this lead to chastity. What you are saying is a form of Manicheanism.
Disgust doesn’t drive out lust. Only charity does.
Edwin
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rcjones
Guest
Amen.
The key to discussions like this is recognizing that original sin is when you act like an animal rather than respond according to what God says.
We can acknowledge that the fruit looks good, smells good. This is instinctive response to a stimuli. Then we should recognize that it is of the flesh and consider what God has said. This is the renewing of our mind by the washing of the word.
It is symbolized in the law when one recognized a sin of the flesh, washed themselves and were unclean until the evening.
We will be unclean until the evening of our death whereupon we will be set free from this flesh.
Whenever we act instinctively rather than upon God’s word we are committing original sin. It is the opposite of the golden rule, to put others first.
The sword of God’s word distinguishes between the soul and the spirit. “Soul” also means “waxing pale” which is symbolically dying. The spirit is that which gives life.
This is followed by distinguishing between the passing thought and the intention of the heart. God and you both know whether a thought is passing, or an intention. The difference is that you may lie to yourself about it.
Jesus’ real point was to say that our righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees who based their righteousness upon their actions, ignoring their heart condition. He was saying that it is impossible for our righteousness to exceed theirs. But with God all things are possible.
The “with God” part refers to Christ himself who was made to be sin so that we might be made to be the righteousness of God.
One should not leave this thread thinking that getting one’s thoughts in order will produce righteousness, but that Christ’s righteousness in you will get your thoughts in order.
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JRKH
Guest
Amen to that!!
But let us not forget that it is in the striving to be perfect that we walk the narrow way.
At the end of the day, we can accept our faults and failures in prayer for forgivenss, but we must, “…Firmly resolve, with the help of thy grace, to sin no more AND to avoid the narrow occasion of sin. Amen”
I think that what many of us have been trying to get across is we must not become lax in our search for holiness.
So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.
Rev 3:16
May God bless all in their journey into holiness.
Peace
James
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greystoke
Guest
No it is not actually adultery.
Kind of requires a physical act.
I think a lot of women are very attractive. But I remain faithful to my wife of 30 years.
People go crazy if they worry too much about the implications of every thought that crosses their mind.
There is a real world outside one’s own head that has real people in it…that need a kind word, a helping hand, a gentle admonishment…
Get out there and live with all your might, and do it righteously.
greystoke
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mom4truth
Guest
Shin:
Just curious: what are your suggestions for quashing the lustful thoughts of men?
Just curious: what are your suggestions for quashing the lustful thoughts of men?
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JRKH
Guest
Not Shin but…
As soon as one becomes aware of the temptation (suggestion) to sin one makes a decision whether to be pleased or dipleased with the suggestion. If one chooses to indulge the suggestion, then one commits the sin.
As for ways to quash the lustful thoughts.
- Invoke Jesus Name (in all reference and not as we hear it so often these days). Say something like Sweet Jesus come to my aid.
- Say an Our Father - Say Many Our Fathers
- Punch yourself in the arm
- If the person has dressed inappropriately, pray for them that they be enlightened to God’s will in their Life.
- Keep a Crucifix in your Pocket or around your neck to touch and say a short repentance prayer (God forgive my impure and imperfect heart)
- Go to confession Often and confess these things, particularly if they are recurring.
Peace
James
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Methodi
Guest
Every thing You said makes sense & also U have given good advice
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JRKH
Guest
I agree that this is some great advise, especially about living ones life righteously. But just because some people suffer from too much scrupulosity and “Go crazy” is no reason to ignore the very real fact that we can sin in our hearts.
Jesus very clearly states that lusting in ones heart is a sin. In fact He calls it the sin of Adultery. So to say that it, “Kind of requires a physical act”, is simply not correct.
I will repeat a bit of the quote from St Francis de Sales about when a thought becomes a sin. (See post number 61)
Francis (de Sales) identifies three steps in the process of temptation. First, sin is proposed to the soul. Then, we are either pleased or displeased by the proposal. Finally, we consent to ro reject the temptation to sin…Francis points out that a crucial decision is actually made right after the temptation presents itself, at the stage where we are either initially pleased or displeased by it
Thus we can see that we begin to sin when our will accepts the temptation for this is when we begin to damage our soul, which is what sin actually is.
Peace
James
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mom4truth
Guest
AMEN to that, James!
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Rickie
Guest
I’m glad I came across this thread. I struggle with this topic in my life. Everyones posts are very helpful to me and are helping me think thru all this. Thank you.
Should the beauty of a woman or man be compared to the beauty of a sunset? Didn’t God create our sexual attraction to the physical beauty of a person for a good reason? If so then it would seem that this sexual attraction should be looked at as something good from God. Are sexual desires/thoughts and sexual attractions the same thing as impure desires/thoughts? Being attracted to someone is part of Gods plan. It’s kept the human race in existance so far.
Should the beauty of a woman or man be compared to the beauty of a sunset? Didn’t God create our sexual attraction to the physical beauty of a person for a good reason? If so then it would seem that this sexual attraction should be looked at as something good from God. Are sexual desires/thoughts and sexual attractions the same thing as impure desires/thoughts? Being attracted to someone is part of Gods plan. It’s kept the human race in existance so far.
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Tarek_Chidiac
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JRKH
Guest
Welcome to the boards Rickie. This thread has developed quite nicely and there is a lot to think about.
Beauty, in and of itself, is certainly a benign thing. One can see beauty in many things both physical and spiritual. In fact some of God’s most beautiful work may be in some of the “ugliest” things. So consider carefully whether you are judging what is beautiful in God’s eyes or by the world’s eyes.
We can compare a sunset to a person’s beauty, but we must also recognize that they are very different things. A sunset does not belong to someone and therefore we cannot covet the sunset in the same way that we can covet someone’s wife or goods.
Actually I would question whether God did create a, “sexual attraction to a physical beauty”, as you put it. True God did create our sexuality as part of the procreative process but our being attracted to “beauty” is often contrary to what would seem logical in a strictly biological sense. For instance, what bearing does the features of a person’s face have to do with procreation? Also consider this, what is placed before the US audience as a “beautiful woman” is very skinny, generally with smallish breasts and “cover girl” features. Yet biologically we, as men, should be more interested in a woman a bit heftier, with wider hips and fuller breasts to better carry a pregnancy and suckle young. Also we should be unconcerned about her face since that has no bearing on the procreative process.
So when you are saying God created this so it must be good, be careful that you are really talking about what God created and not about what “the world” tells us.
Now you’re at the crux of the matter. discerning just what is, “sexual attraction” and what is, “impure thought”. This is why I like St. Francis de Sales three steps. It really helps define that point where one transitions to the other.
There is much that is unclear in this, and Jesus did not make it easy for us bu just creating a whole new set of “rules” like the OT covenent. Instead He challanged us to look inside ourselves, to look deep inside and determine if we are truly committed to God and to things spiritual and eternal or are we committed to the world and things physical and transitory.
God Bless
Peace
James
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JRKH
Guest
JRKH;4714913:
Totaly agree but … What I wanted to point at is … prayers for God gift. and prayers are not laxity in our search for holiness.
Peace
James
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greystoke
Guest
I don’t find the skinny boyish coathanger look attractive at all. Lots of fashion designers are openly gay and prefer women to look like boys. I think straight men with enough testosterone like curvy women.
A symmetrical face, ie “beautiful” with regular features is evidence of “good genes” and absense of more obvious genetic problems. Therefore beauty is indeed often an indication of fitness to breed, in the same way that in the animal kingdom something as apparently useless as a peacocks tail attracts females.
That’s one of the reasons why in all human cultures, women tend to marry men who average 5-6" taller than themselves. The difference in height is an example of sexual selection.
Now you’re at the crux of the matter. discerning just what is, “sexual attraction” and what is, “impure thought”. This is why I like St. Francis de Sales three steps. It really helps define that point where one transitions to the other.
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JRKH
Guest
These are good points here.
It does git compleekated don it?
Of course we’ll never be able to thrash out all the various nuances etc in this which is why I think Jesus didn’t want to “write a bunch of rules”. Of all people He knew how we humans are.
Rather He challenged us to go inside ourselves and seek the kingdom.
Peace
James
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greystoke
Guest
Peace to you too, James
greystoke
greystoke
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