What exactly is people's beef with feminism here?

[livingwordunity]

I was raised by a feminist who had a library of feminist literature. I remember trying to read one of the books, but after getting about half-way through I had to stop because it was just portraying men as ignorant useless sexual objects. “Feminism”, as taught in colleges under the cleverly appealing name “women’s studies”, teaches women that they are better than men and that men are the enemy. It’s teaches that divorce is good, and that marriage and having children are what is holding them back from career opportunities and with this that abortion and artificial contraception is something that women can’t live without. It imitates models of “male domination” while trying to immaculate men. This attack on marital fidelity and the natural relationship and roles between men and women is what led to today’s promotion of homosexuality. All of this is in direct opposition to God’s revelation about what’s best for us.

 

[marymary1975]

I haven’t read all the responses so sorry if i repeat what has been said but i wanted. To give you my view. Personally and especially as a female who is a professional, with a daughter, and someone who at some point was a victim of domestic violence, you can be sure I am all for women to be treated fairly in society, for having the right to have the same opportunities as men and I am fiercely against violence against women. however I find a lot of things I dislike about feminism of course the fact that there are some radicals full of hate. First of all, most feminism, and most by far, tackle the issue of women’s disparities by encouraging wrong behavior instead of calling for men to adapt good behavior. Double morals is an issue in society but why feminist have to promote in order promiscuity for women instead of calling men to be faithful? I have read tons of feminist website, articles, meet with feminist group, etc. And all encourage women to set free from the double morals of patriarchy by being sexually liberal. Their view i@ men have been promiscuous them women have a right to do it too. What about teacing men to NOT be promiscuous? Whenever I say that they look at me like crazy and think I am oppressed by patriarchy. And the same goes for many issues and as I said, I have yet to find a feminist.group that doesn’t approve sexual promiscuous behavior because in their mind that is freedom.

Second, feminist, even non radicals, take things to the extreme. Your body your choice, you can do whatever you want with your life and nobody can tell you anything about your decisions. That kind of mentality is the most negative thing I have seen. While people should have the right to make decisions over their life, you can’t do whatever you want. If your decisions affect the life of third persons of impact negatively your life you should not be be congratulated for doing it and sometimes people do need others to tell them what they are doing wrong. Feminism wants to sell the idea that right or wrong doesn’t exist which is a lie. There is a right way of doing things and a wrong way of doing things and there is a society in which the mentality of my life my way may not work very well. Another extremist thing in feminism, victim shaming. While is true that a victim should never be shamed for a crime telling women that saying " don’t want walk alone through a dark alley" is victim shaking is irrational. Yes, is true that men should not rape but like it or not crime exists in our society and taking measures to avoid crime are not victim shaming. And I can go on for an entire day with things similar that are taken to the extreme by feminism. I have a great issue with that.

Third, feminism removes people’s responsibility over things places it on an abstract thing…patriarchy or society… and promotes irresponsible behavior. Abortion, contraception, etc. I have yet to find one feminist group that is pro life. Even the less radical groups (which I tend to read because they are more about fairness) tend to ne heavily pro abortion.why instead of promoting contraception and abortion they don’t promote responsibility…if you don’t want a child don’t get pregnant, don’t have sex if you are not ready? Then they all blame and whine over the patriarchy. While iS true that there is a culture in society that is unfair with women truth is unless you are living in Iran or Saudi Arabia there is no organized societal structure stopping women from anything. Feminism teaches that there is which again is a horrible mentality. Many women have been able to reach success in this country. How come patriarchy didn’t stop them? Feminism says that they want to empower women but their empowerment is totally wrong. They teach empowerment comes from doing whatever you want, not true. Empowerment comes from pitting your big girl. Pants, learn that you are responsible for your own actions, looking up to Tue people who have been successful, taking the right decisions and work towards your goals like if there are no limitations.

I can keep on with a huge list of other things totally wrong with feminism but those three are the main, plus I am sure other people have posted other important things like radical feminism, etc.

 

[marymary1975]

True, but then true feminist should take the word back and not let NOW carry the banner. If you are a feminist and oppose planned (un)parenthood, abortion, contraception, misandry and all the other ills that radical feminazis support then standup and say NO we don’t support that. Feminist can’t crawl into bed with abortionist because they happen to support fair wages and not expect the abortionists’ stench to cling to them.

One other thing since it always seems to come up. Women making lower wages is not generally driven by gender. At least when I had a staff the issue was that women didn’t ask for the same wages or were not assertive when it came to asking for a raise. If a man asks for $100k and a woman asks for $80k for the same job they will get what they ask for. My job was to hire the most competent person that could perform the work. If a man or woman asked for lower than the median in my group it was not my responsibility to tell them that they shot low. Men on my staff were probably 20 times more likely to ask for an additional raise or complain if they thought their raise was too low.

So if you are a man or woman that thinks you are under paid then you need to:

1. Know what the market price for your job is and then ask for slightly more.
2. Be prepared to sell why you are worth more than other employees.
3. Be prepared to walk away from a low offer. If you accept a job at lower than your peers that is your fault.
4. When it is time for reviews have a list of accomplishments including how you saved or made the company money.

In the 7 years I managed a staff, for 4 of those years a woman was either the highest or second highest paid employee on my staff. The two other women on the staff were paid below the median. One was because she moved from a smaller job market and did not ask for the additional 15% difference between markets. The other did not have the same throughput as her peers so did not earn the same raises and bonuses.

My point in all this is that the pay disparity is not nessicarily wage discrimination. I am all for getting rid of any vestigial wage discrimination, but I do not support the idea that every one should make the same amount based purely on title. When taking a job we all agree to do work x for wage y. If my y is lower than yours that is what I agreed to do the work for so it is my fault for not selling myself better or holding out for more.

This is another of my issues with feminism. While I think there is some discrimination at some level, especially low skilled labor and immigrants, wages is such a subjective thing and there are so many factors contributing to different wages that pointing wage difference mostly to gender discrimination seems inaccurate to me. I think their numbers are exagerate plus I think may statistics presented by feminism are exagerated.

 

[manualman]

Definitions are so important and so badly neglected in our culture. Everybody has a differing definition of feminism.

Catholics don’t have an issue with the assertion that women have an equal dignity and value as men. We, in fact, have been the major champion of bringing that idea to the fore in Western civilization. At the time of Christ women were considered little more than the property of their fathers, then their husbands. Christ addressed them as equals. Christianity asserts that the dignity of mankind arises from the fact that we were created in God’s image and likeness. God created Adam first, but then DIVIDED Adam into male and female by forming Eve from Adam’s rib. In this way it is evident that both Adam AND Eve were created in the image and likeness of God. There, no doubt, have been problems changing the ancient culture of denigrating women and it has taken time to make progress. But progress would never have happened at all without the new idea of the source of human dignity that underlies the christian worldview.

I don’t think the above is “feminism.” Personally, I think the word is beyond redemption and should be discarded. It implies an innate animosity and hostility between male and female that should not exist and need not exist.

But what catholics usually object to is 60’s era Gloria Steinem feminism. That is REALLY a misnomer. It should have been called “masculinism.” What those activists got RIGHT is that too much of society denigrated women and failed to acknowledge the value of their contributions to human society and civilization. What they got horribly WRONG was to AGREE with the mysoginists that the roles women had historically played had no value and that those men had usually hoarded to themselves were the only roles of real value in the human experience.

This mistake has lead to a cultural disaster in Western civilization (if we can still call it that). It’s true that men have traditionally hogged the credit, the glory and the money to the roles they played. But I suspect that women have always done the things that REALLY contributed to human flourishing and happiness. Many feminists would derisively describe my wife as a “housewife” and assume that her life has been wasted. After all, she has two degree and could be making big bucks in her medical-related career right now. Helping people getting better, developing new forms of therapy, making a difference. Instead, she volunteers at our catholic school library for free helping kids learn to love reading. She helps out with our parish assistance to families in financial crisis. She informally assists teachers in finding ways to teach ‘trouble’ students. And she cares for our kids before and after school (no rent-a-moms). Meanwhile, I go off to my office and prepare construction drawings and specifications for subdivisions, roadway projects and drainage improvements and make all the money. Trust me, the 60’s feminists were dead wrong. Her’s is by far the more important job for civilization’s survival. And yet feminism denigrates her for doing it far more than any 1960’s mysoginist ever did. Nice.

 

[3DOCTORS]

There have been lots of good and well reasoned responses on this thread. I’m glad to see that! Most points have been made, not much to add.

The important distinction to make is between advocating basic women’s rights vs. the goals of radical feminism that lead to various evils - denigrating men wholesale (I do think the “macho” attitude is something men need to let go of as can lead to uncharitable treatment of women), voluntary lesbianism, goddess worship, and putting down stay at home moms. Not to mention the whole push for contraception and abortion and instead of men becoming gentlemen, women acting out the Helen Gurley Brown “liberated” way of life.

Radical feminism has hurt the church too - witness the NLRC controversy. Or read Donna Steichen’s book Ungodly Rage to find out more.

Part of our concupiscence as human beings is to start out with good intentions but be manipulated by the Evil One into twisting those good intentions into something that is anything but good.

 

[Usige]

This is another of my issues with feminism. While I think there is some discrimination at some level, especially low skilled labor and immigrants, wages is such a subjective thing and there are so many factors contributing to different wages that pointing wage difference mostly to gender discrimination seems inaccurate to me. I think their numbers are exagerate plus I think may statistics presented by feminism are exagerated.

I use statistics every day as part of my job. The issue (or benefit) with statistics is that no one asks questions about them. They see something like “women make 80¢ on the dollar compared to men” and jump to the conclusion that it’s caused by discrimination. Most never stop to ask what else might cause the gap. Statistics are used to tell a story and you can select the statistic you want to tell the story that you want to tell.

A report commissioned by the department of labor (here) showed that something like 10-15% of the wage gap can be contributed to factors other than gender. I’m 5’9" and statistically men over 6’ make more money so I should be able to sue for height descrimination right?

Organizations like NOW ignore these reports and instead use the statistic that tells their story. Basically the story that women are unfairly subjugated by men. That is important because it helps them draw in women that might not support the rest of their agenda. They beat the drum saying “aren’t you tired of being underpaid, vote for XXXX.” I never hear them make suggestions that shows an individual how to obtain parity.

 

[Elizabeth502]

I suspect that due to the actions of the radicals, and a few outright misogynists, people think the word ‘feminist’ applies only to the more radical wing of the movement. Then of course, the stereotype was perpetuated by the media.

Actually, that’s not quite accurate. Often, they stereotyped themselves. It may be hard for you to believe this, but there was more than one article (and not just in the early stages of radical feminism) that actually posed the question, “Are men necessary?” Mostly that question was directed toward the individual household, not society at large, but it was asked, and it was asked seriously, not as a spoof, by “feminists” themselves, not falsely attributed to those commentators, by the media.

And of course, any woman who has used a Sperm Bank has materially practiced “not needing men,” just needing their sperm.

 

[manualman]

I use statistics every day as part of my job. The issue (or benefit) with statistics is that no one asks questions about them. They see something like “women make 80¢ on the dollar compared to men” and jump to the conclusion that it’s caused by discrimination. Most never stop to ask what else might cause the gap. Statistics are used to tell a story and you can select the statistic you want to tell the story that you want to tell.

I’ve often wondered if those stats are based on research that controls for type of work done, years of active job experience and position held. There never appears to be any fine print, so I’m not sure what to think. I know there is no disparity in my smallish workplace. Since we do some government work, I have at time seen what various people make.

One thing in particular that I’m sure they don’t control for is the effect of maternity absences. Perhaps it is unfair that if a woman has worked for a company 10 years having been hired on the same day as a man she makes less and is in a lower position. But if she had three kids in that time frame and a total of a year off in maternity leave, is it the employer being unfair that that time isn’t credited as seniority or is it just that life is unfair and nothing can be done to help it? I can see both sides, but the bottom line is that the employer only stays in business if they can provide competitive services at a competitive price. It’s asking a lot of them to make them pay the same for someone who has less actual experience and uninterupted work history.

Some problems aren’t easy to solve and easy to label bad guys.

 

[marymary1975]

I use statistics every day as part of my job. The issue (or benefit) with statistics is that no one asks questions about them. They see something like “women make 80¢ on the dollar compared to men” and jump to the conclusion that it’s caused by discrimination. Most never stop to ask what else might cause the gap. Statistics are used to tell a story and you can select the statistic you want to tell the story that you want to tell.

A report commissioned by the department of labor (here) showed that something like 10-15% of the wage gap can be contributed to factors other than gender. I’m 5’9" and statistically men over 6’ make more money so I should be able to sue for height descrimination right?

Organizations like NOW ignore these reports and instead use the statistic that tells their story. Basically the story that women are unfairly subjugated by men. That is important because it helps them draw in women that might not support the rest of their agenda. They beat the drum saying “aren’t you tired of being underpaid, vote for XXXX.” I never hear them make suggestions that shows an individual how to obtain parity.

Oh my God, I agree sooo much with you! You have described it in a wonderful way. People don’t look at other factors. There are things like the University that you went to (I can assure everybody that a male graduated from Harvard is going to make more money than all the women that didn’t go to Harvard), years of experience, previous work history, language spoken, also how was the salary negotiation (men tend highly to negotiate during interviews while women don’t and I have seen that a lot) so not everything boils down to Discrimination.

Again, goes into my other problem with feminism blames everything on this abstract concept of patriarchy and, eliminates personal responsibility and makes women to get stuck in a whiny/victimized state from which you you can’t get out because of the existence of this abstract patriarchy. I think if more women would learn to negociate, would look at how women in higher position did it and emulate them.more and look into the other factors contributing to the wage gap instead of blaming it on patriarchy, the wage gap would close very quickly.

 

[marymary1975]

Actually, that’s not quite accurate. Often, they stereotyped themselves. It may be hard for you to believe this, but there was more than one article (and not just in the early stages of radical feminism) that actually posed the question, “Are men necessary?” Mostly that question was directed toward the individual household, not society at large, but it was asked, and it was asked seriously, not as a spoof, by “feminists” themselves, not falsely attributed to those commentators, by the media.

And of course, any woman who has used a Sperm Bank has materially practiced “not needing men,” just needing their sperm.

Talking about that…www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2013/06/03/what-are-fathers-for

Have any of you read that? That is what they publish for father’s.day…I was like

 

[Miss_Felicity]

We recognize that our American culture’s understanding of “feminism” = “abortion”.

Who is We?

I haven’t gotten a chance to read all the responses and thats probably a good thing. I loosely identify as Womanist/Afro Feminist. I say loosely because I have some overarching issues with labels in general. For me being a womanist (a term coined by Alice Walker) is not at all about putting down men, it actually considers men allies and very neccessary to our unified success much more than traditional or radical feminism.

My issue with the argument against feminism especially on message boards such as this one is I am fan of say what you mean, if you are anti abortion (as most of us as Catholics are) say you are anti abortion but to say your anti feminist when the common thread in feminist and womanist movements have been equality and education for women is senseless. Its NOT okay with me that we throw the baby out with the bathwater, its not okay with me to dismiss the other issues that have been brought to the forefront and addressed because of these women’s movements.

I have seen an incredible amount of sexism on the boards in my short time at CAF. I think that a lot of it can be attributed to a generation gap with some of the members but nobody bats an eye when somebody says that the man is the head of the home and should DEMAND this and that from his wife and that her opinion matters less. Nobody has an issue with that it seems but when someone uses the term feminist (which I tend not to because of the differences in Womanism and Afro Feminism which I ally myself with)

I find it disheartening that people boil down several complex and necessary issues to abortion, it almost feels like a straw man so there is no discussion of real issues. In my circle of friends and associates who discuss women and minority issues many, dare I even say most are married, engaged or plan to marry and have children, many oppose abortion etc.

 

[marymary1975]

I have to heavily disagree with what you are saying in here. I have been in CAF for a while and have seen and been in several threads regarding the famous men head of household thing and women’s position in marriage and by far the majority of responses have been that women are the same dignity, that women are valuable their opinions are important and are in the same position as men. There have been a few sexists posts yes, but the vast majority of people in here don’t agree that a woman’s position matters less. Your statement that “nobody” bats an eye when someone says that a man should demand is not true because I would have jumped and make a huge issue to anyone saying that, and I can also mention to you a few other names of people here ( because I have read their comments in previous threats) of men and women who would have a serious issue with someone making that statement. In fact, within this week there was a thread in the family forum of a guy who said he was the head of the house and his wife had to obey him, each and every single person in the three or four pages of that thread jumped at the guy calling him.controlling, possessive, that he was wrong , crazy etc. I dint even get to comment because EVERY single poster beated the guy up in such a way that I didn’t need to make comments. So I totally disagree, most people here would have an issue with anyone putting women down.

 

[Cojuanco]

By “we”, he likely means the dominant narrative on abortion as being essential to feminism. Which is patently false, naturally, but guess which feminists have access to the microphone or the ear of the editor? It’s like the stereotype of Jesuits as being all unorthodox - most are perfectly orthodox men, but guess who gets in front of the cameras?

 

[kozlosap]

We recognize that our American culture’s understanding of “feminism” = “abortion”.

I certainly don’t believe that most educated people believe that.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

Looking beyond abortion and other such clear evils to the issue of gender roles, I think one major problem in discussing this issue is that some people don’t seem to be able to imagine a someone (particularly a man) taking the position that the family and social roles of men and women are naturally different without assuming that it is a matter of one sex disrespecting and trying to lord it over the other. Their views on the issue have been so shaped by the narrative of noble feminine struggle against male chauvinists that they force others’ opinions on the subject into that paradigm, imputing attitudes and motives on those who disagree with them that could not be farther from the truth.

 

[Miss_Felicity]

I have to heavily disagree with what you are saying in here. I have been in CAF for a while and have seen and been in several threads regarding the famous men head of household thing and women’s position in marriage and by far the majority of responses have been that women are the same dignity, that women are valuable their opinions are important and are in the same position as men. There have been a few sexists posts yes, but the vast majority of people in here don’t agree that a woman’s position matters less. Your statement that “nobody” bats an eye when someone says that a man should demand is not true because I would have jumped and make a huge issue to anyone saying that, and I can also mention to you a few other names of people here ( because I have read their comments in previous threats) of men and women who would have a serious issue with someone making that statement. In fact, within this week there was a thread in the family forum of a guy who said he was the head of the house and his wife had to obey him, each and every single person in the three or four pages of that thread jumped at the guy calling him.controlling, possessive, that he was wrong , crazy etc. I dint even get to comment because EVERY single poster beated the guy up in such a way that I didn’t need to make comments. So I totally disagree, most people here would have an issue with anyone putting women down.

I am willing to admit I overemphasized my point out of frustration and for that I apologize. I DO still believe that feminism gets a bad wrap when there are several sub communities within it and many of them are non problematic. I personally love men and do not participate in anything that disparages them.

 

[3DOCTORS]

Looking beyond abortion and other such clear evils to the issue of gender roles, I think one major problem in discussing this issue is that some people don’t seem to be able to imagine a someone (particularly a man) taking the position that the family and social roles of men and women are naturally different without assuming that it is a matter of one sex disrespecting and trying to lord it over the other. Their views on the issue have been so shaped by the narrative of noble feminine struggle against male chauvinists that they force others’ opinions on the subject into that paradigm, imputing attitudes and motives on those who disagree with them that could not be farther from the truth.

:clapping: :clapping: :clapping: Well put! And as a woman who has helped some of my friends escape things like domestic violence, yes, there are men who seem to have read the part in the Bible about “wives be submissive to your husbands” and stopped there, without continuing on to the part about “husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the Church” which all you have to do to understand is look at a crucifix.

Again, human concupiscence - tendency to sin and be selfish - is really at the root of all evils that beset harmony between the sexes. I’m not all that fond of feminism as a word for what really falls under the umbrella of charity, but I suppose by now we’re stuck with it as a general term which often means what the person using it wants it to mean.

I’m probably guilty of that myself though I try to use qualifiers such as “radical” or “leftist” or “pro-choice” depending on what beef I have with the kind of feminists I don’t like. And I likewise use qualifiers for those whom I support - one has beaten me to the punch, Feminists for Life which takes that as their organization’s name.

So often I would like to really call out lots of members of my own family - the guys “Hey, why don’t you quit shacking up with her and marry her already if you really love her, quit demanding that she use birth control, have a family and support them and be a good dad.” And to the girls - “Quit trying to be a porn star or something, or playing house with your guy because he’s made it clear he won’t stick around if you start wanting ‘too much’ in terms of a commitment from him. Set your sights high and stick to your guns.” And there are sometimes reversals - the guy who wants to be pure but caves in to pressure, and the girl who is just out to see how many men she can sleep with. But you see my point.

 

[edwest2]

Who is We?

I haven’t gotten a chance to read all the responses and thats probably a good thing. I loosely identify as Womanist/Afro Feminist. I say loosely because I have some overarching issues with labels in general. For me being a womanist (a term coined by Alice Walker) is not at all about putting down men, it actually considers men allies and very neccessary to our unified success much more than traditional or radical feminism.

My issue with the argument against feminism especially on message boards such as this one is I am fan of say what you mean, if you are anti abortion (as most of us as Catholics are) say you are anti abortion but to say your anti feminist when the common thread in feminist and womanist movements have been equality and education for women is senseless. Its NOT okay with me that we throw the baby out with the bathwater, its not okay with me to dismiss the other issues that have been brought to the forefront and addressed because of these women’s movements.

I have seen an incredible amount of sexism on the boards in my short time at CAF. I think that a lot of it can be attributed to a generation gap with some of the members but nobody bats an eye when somebody says that the man is the head of the home and should DEMAND this and that from his wife and that her opinion matters less. Nobody has an issue with that it seems but when someone uses the term feminist (which I tend not to because of the differences in Womanism and Afro Feminism which I ally myself with)

I find it disheartening that people boil down several complex and necessary issues to abortion, it almost feels like a straw man so there is no discussion of real issues. In my circle of friends and associates who discuss women and minority issues many, dare I even say most are married, engaged or plan to marry and have children, many oppose abortion etc.

That’s baloney. Men are useless, throwaway objects. Abortion applies only to the woman. The man does not matter. Where are fathers? “Mom? Where’s my dad?”

nytimes.com/2012/02/18/us/for-women-under-30-most-births-occur-outside-marriage.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

And the ultra-liberal New York Times calls this the “new normal.” I’d like to find the person or persons responsible for that term.

Where are most abortion clinics located?

blackgenocide.org/planned.html

So men demand this or that? Show me one post on CAF that uses that word in connection with husbands.

utsandiego.com/uniontrib/20040709/news_lz1e9perkins.html

There’s a problem alright, and I heard a woman say it herself after having a few kids: “I don’t need a man in my life.”

Ed

Ed

 

[CaptFun]

CaptFun responds in RED

To a Catholic,
feminism can go in two ways: Susan B Anthony and a pro-woman/pro/life direction or
Margaret Sanger and her pro-abortion cohorts’ direction.

That is quite an astute summary of the main problem IMO.

If you detect resentment against feminism in a Catholic website the above might be a thought for you. Women have often had a hand up in Catholicism but have not required “equality” as much as regard and respect. We are not equal; as GK Chesterton admits: females are superior. We do not favor destroying our femaleness, so we resent the feminist “package”. Had feminism left out the death part of that package, we would be much happier about the word ‘Feminist’. Even Alice Walker, author and not a Catholic, favors the term “womanism.” Check out a “Feminists for Life” website.

When I hear the term Feminist I tend to think of it as a class warfare term I’m afraid. More like “White Supremacist” than the “Women’s Club of Yourtown”.

That is a knee jerk reaction to the word. But abortion is the lynching of today - and I’m against both. If my association between “feminist” and “pro-abortion” begins to fade – there is always a prominent “feminist spokesperson” appearing before me on TV justifying the worst injustice of our time. I even saw some evidence of it at the 2012 Democratic Convention*** ITSELF***!

As for other “justice” issues – like most men, we don’t want our mothers, sisters, daughters, wives, and female friends arbitrarily cheated out of their due wages. That would be silly. Most of us love women and would rather be friends. And a husband with a working wife would have a strange loyalty to gender were he to favor his wife being exploited to their family’s disadvantage.

There is not a similar ***(official) ***Masculinism per se. Though some Feminists would call the (real? legendary?) “old boys network” exclusive towards women. To me, it is just as likely that some women who would TAKE less money for doing a certain job might get hired in place of a male per competition. Plus that “does the same job for less pay” is hard to quantify.

Where I do see a Masculinism of sorts is in the values portrayed in (for instance - and not the worst case but) Playboy Magazine (for negative values). Women as a playmate, a dalliance, NOT someone to commit to, an ever-changing, never aging “girl of the month,” with the only morality being adequate birth control devices available with paying for an abortion as a back up. - **this kind of guy is sometimes “in style” for reasons that perplex me. I rather consider them flawed and silly rather than “more man” than a man who is ethical and actually sacrifices himself instead of indulges his lower nature at every opportunity. **

 

[mark_a]

Who is We?

People here, as the title of the thread asks.

My post is, of course, an over-simplification. I’m not a member of the he-man-woman-hater club. In my opinion, women are the fabric of society. Women hold society together.

Women the world over are done a huge disservice by the type of feminists that are given a voice by the national media. And like it or not, the media gives these she-woman-man-haters a voice that overshadows God-fearing feminists who really do want to better the world by making things better for women and their families.