What exactly is scrupulosity? How can we tell if someone has it?
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
I tend to think someone may have scrupulosity when their thought process on sin seems (a) excessive and (b) well beyond the societal norm.
We have had, for example, a couple of instances where people were on here thinking they committed the sin of gluttony because they were extra hungry at a meal and ate a bigger portion than they normally did. We’re not talking plates and plates of food, we’re talking about someone who says they normally buy a sandwich and eat half of it being worried that they sinned because they ate the whole sandwich.
Other people have felt guilty for enjoying a particular non-sinful activity that didn’t seem to be keeping them from church, leading them into sin, otherwise coming between them and God, etc.
Still others get advice from their priest that some minor matter is not a sin, but instead of accepting this they post threads second-guessing the priest. A normal person would accept the guidance of the priestly authority.
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Kei
Guest
Ok, if by lustful thoughts he means he is fantasizing, then quite possibly.
However, if he is just having a thought and not indulging in it, then he is not culpable for that. This is why it is important to understand there is a difference between thoughts and ourselves. If he has intrusive thoughts, this is especially necessary.
We are not culpable for mere thoughts that pop into our head.
Now, the “grey area” will be how one defines indulging. In this case, it is proper to define it as actively, purposefully thinking about it.
I know how painful this can be. One time, it was the end of lent, and it was Easter I believe. I had not eaten anything for two days, I confessed, and the he thought of receiving the Eucharist at this traditional Latin Mass I was at after my fast and confession made me cry. I was so elated for it. But, then a thought came up. A gross image. It ruined the whole thing for my subjective experience. I was wondering if I had sinned, if…and then received and was so strung up with doubt and sadness. I’ve had intrusive thoughts that would be terribly heretical or sinful, and what I would (and still) do was to think of a way to finish the sentences that were acceptable. It would happen constantly, I couldn’t focus, and I would be mentally exhausted.
One may never be completely healed, but it can get much better. It takes a lot of prayer, a lot of understanding, and a new way of looking at things from the proper angle.
I once read a comment on Quora, and I can’t tell you how relieved this just made me feel, that said, some people get obsessed over a thought. But it is just a thought.
And that is so true.
However, if he is just having a thought and not indulging in it, then he is not culpable for that. This is why it is important to understand there is a difference between thoughts and ourselves. If he has intrusive thoughts, this is especially necessary.
We are not culpable for mere thoughts that pop into our head.
Now, the “grey area” will be how one defines indulging. In this case, it is proper to define it as actively, purposefully thinking about it.
I know how painful this can be. One time, it was the end of lent, and it was Easter I believe. I had not eaten anything for two days, I confessed, and the he thought of receiving the Eucharist at this traditional Latin Mass I was at after my fast and confession made me cry. I was so elated for it. But, then a thought came up. A gross image. It ruined the whole thing for my subjective experience. I was wondering if I had sinned, if…and then received and was so strung up with doubt and sadness. I’ve had intrusive thoughts that would be terribly heretical or sinful, and what I would (and still) do was to think of a way to finish the sentences that were acceptable. It would happen constantly, I couldn’t focus, and I would be mentally exhausted.
One may never be completely healed, but it can get much better. It takes a lot of prayer, a lot of understanding, and a new way of looking at things from the proper angle.
I once read a comment on Quora, and I can’t tell you how relieved this just made me feel, that said, some people get obsessed over a thought. But it is just a thought.
And that is so true.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
As someone who in the past used to go without eating for longer than I should have, doing this can cause all kinds of emotional and biochemical responses, good and bad, that do not come into one’s head when one is receiving proper nourishment. When I was going without food, my emotions and thoughts would get so out of whack I thought I might need mental health help. I eventually realized that if I just ate a decent meal, all of a sudden I could think straight again.
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Edward_H
Guest
A good test for whether we may be out of balance here might be this:
Is my focus on sinning/confessing getting in the way of my natural acts of charity for others?
Our whole life should be ‘becoming’ an integral act, one of prayer, work, and smiling, if you will!
Our “devotions” to God with the accompanying prayers to this or that saint, this or that novena, this or that spiritual practice) has been said, should be “few, constant, and not get in the way of living charity”.
Focus on more conversational prayer, an in that prayer abandoning the self to the care of God, and then serving others out of love for God.
Is my focus on sinning/confessing getting in the way of my natural acts of charity for others?
Our whole life should be ‘becoming’ an integral act, one of prayer, work, and smiling, if you will!
Our “devotions” to God with the accompanying prayers to this or that saint, this or that novena, this or that spiritual practice) has been said, should be “few, constant, and not get in the way of living charity”.
Focus on more conversational prayer, an in that prayer abandoning the self to the care of God, and then serving others out of love for God.
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Kei
Guest
Oh that wasn’t the cause of it, it happens all the time.
Three is when you gotta be careful and stuff, never gone that far because 1) I like to eat, 2) I like to be careful. People say YOLO to do crazy things, I think it to keep me from doing crazy things.
Three is when you gotta be careful and stuff, never gone that far because 1) I like to eat, 2) I like to be careful. People say YOLO to do crazy things, I think it to keep me from doing crazy things.
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Peebo
Guest
I’m wondering if this is basically a Catholic problem…ie…Protestants don’t seem to worry about whether they’ve committed a venial sin…or a mortal sin…did they have an impure thought…did they eat too much…or drink too much…etc…etc…they don’t have to worry about whether they need to go to confession…if they should or should not take the Eucharist…(communion)…if they feel they have sinned they just confess directly to God for forgiveness…now I know that’s not how we Catholics do things…but that’s how Protestants do…so maybe they don’t have a scrupulosity hang-up…I used to be a Pentecostal over two decades ago…and this was never an issue as far as I knew…you just sincerely asked our Lord for forgiveness and that was that…any Protestants here…or former Protestants who can give (name removed by moderator)ut.
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Prodigal_Son
Guest
Well, this is honestly precisely what I meant by saying that, on some views, there are no venial sexual sins. You have confirmed this view of my friend’s. For being tempted at the moment to lust is simply not sin at all; it is not a venial sin. What would a venial sexual sin be like, on your view?
And let me ask you this: if someone intentionally entertained thoughts of beating up a bully, would that be a mortal sin? I would say no, and I would say the same about lust.
There simply must be the possibility of a venial sin associated with lust. Otherwise all the people on this and other threads who say that “people should not go to confession three or four times a week” are simply wrong. Because for many people, slight falls into “looking too intently” in the sexual area are that common, even when they are doing otherwise well spiritually.
Now, I could understand someone saying that these intentional thoughts would be mortal if someone had full consent of the will, and that most men in our culture simply do not have full consent of the will in such circumstances. This would mean that every sexual sin is potentially mortal, but that in real life slight falls are simply not mortal for most people. Would you endorse that view?
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Kei
Guest
I agree that sexual sins are gravely disordered in general.
Actively and purposefully entertaining lust is sinful. You say it wouldn’t be mortal unless you have full consent of will, but this is all mortal sin.
Now, some try to make that sound like it’s almost impossible to mortally sin, but that’s not how it’s been understood historically so I don’t think that’s accurate. I think, you know what you’re doing, you’re doing it anyway, you don’t have an addiction, along with grave matter it is probably mortal sin.
If he is actively entertaining lustful thoughts, why, our Lord said lust is like adultery, so we should be clear in thoughts as well. Note this is much more than getting a thought. But, if he is doing this, then yes, he should probably work on that.
Actively and purposefully entertaining lust is sinful. You say it wouldn’t be mortal unless you have full consent of will, but this is all mortal sin.
Now, some try to make that sound like it’s almost impossible to mortally sin, but that’s not how it’s been understood historically so I don’t think that’s accurate. I think, you know what you’re doing, you’re doing it anyway, you don’t have an addiction, along with grave matter it is probably mortal sin.
If he is actively entertaining lustful thoughts, why, our Lord said lust is like adultery, so we should be clear in thoughts as well. Note this is much more than getting a thought. But, if he is doing this, then yes, he should probably work on that.
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Prodigal_Son
Guest
I never denied he should work on it. We should always be working on all our sins, including venial ones – smaller sins breed larger ones.
Would you recommend that a person who – despite prayer and other disciplines – lusts regularly (without masturbation/porn/promiscuity) go to confession 3-4 times a week? I’m just curious what remedies you would suggest?
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Kei
Guest
Why is he lusting regularly? Remember, this would be an act of the will. How regularly does this happen and why?
I reccomend he get a spiritual director if this is such a problem.
I reccomend he get a spiritual director if this is such a problem.
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Prodigal_Son
Guest
I agree. (Though I would never describe 15-second bouts of thinking lustfully “such a problem”). And I can’t answer the other questions, since I don’t know.
But anyway, I feel that this is one of many issues that people described as “scrupulous” experience. At the very least, I want us to realize that we (myself included) may be painting with a broad brush when we talk about “what scrupulous people are like” – since there are lots of different people with lots of different reasons for displaying seemingly-scrupulous behavior.
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Kei
Guest
You say 15 seconds. If it is for 15 seconds that implies he keeps it short.
Could it be he is not noticing the lustful thoughts and thus is not actively encouraging it?
Could it be he is not noticing the lustful thoughts and thus is not actively encouraging it?
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Prodigal_Son
Guest
When I have lusted in short bursts, before, I’m quite sure I have sometimes actively encouraged it. So I’m guessing that, with my friend, it would fit all your definitions of mortal sin.
At any rate, I’m not sure we need to continue this conversation. I think we disagree, but that’s fine.
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StarMapp
Guest
Tis_Bearself
Patron
This is not necessarily true. It may depend on the Protestant sect. But I had a Protestant guy I was dating many years ago tell me that he envied Catholics because “if they committed a sin they could just go to Confession and get rid of it and not be bothered with guilt”. As Catholic guilt (at least in those days) was a HUGE part of growing up Catholic, I told him “It doesn’t quite work that way” and “It’s not that simple” and “You don’t know what you are talking about”.
Several decades down the road, I now understand that this guy was reportedly committing serious sins right and left and was probably having what I’ve heard described as “salvation anxiety” over them.
I’ve heard of some Protestants who assumed that because they were “saved” they could just do whatever, and others who believed they could immediately confess to the Lord, but I’ve also heard of or known some others who agonized over their sins, not being certain of God’s forgiveness or worrying that their behavior in committing sins somehow showed they were irredeemable.
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Kei
Guest
There is a chance the will could be compromised but it really depends on what you mean.
I don’t think I have much experience in this sin so I can’t say. Usually I can just think of Christ crucified, perhaps strike myself lightly, pray, and then I don’t continue to think about it. That’d be my advice to help not do it.
I don’t think I have much experience in this sin so I can’t say. Usually I can just think of Christ crucified, perhaps strike myself lightly, pray, and then I don’t continue to think about it. That’d be my advice to help not do it.
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Kei
Guest
Let me tell you, one of the things about protestantism (I was greatly affected by protestant thinking when younger) is that it makes you feel like you have no hope of avoiding sin. It would put me in so much sadness, thinking I could never defeat my sins with God’s power.
And then if you sin, you don’t have any assurance of forgiveness except a feeling. It’s awful!
And then if you sin, you don’t have any assurance of forgiveness except a feeling. It’s awful!
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Vico
Guest
My post was to ZynXensar, and was not a personal comment. In the post was:Vico:
I do not understand. What am I doing that is inconsistent with that of the rest of the faith?
So it is not possible to answer if there is excessive focus without reviewing personal mental and physical behaviors, so see if trivial are treated as trivial and non-trivial are treated as non-trivial, or if religious laws are not obeyed.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
Yes, i understand this now, and I’m sorry I wasn’t more understanding of it at the time. I also wasn’t fully aware of the extent of sinfulness the person was engaging in at the time we had this little talk (found out decades later).
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