What exactly is the knowledge of good and evil?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Robert_Sock
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I have never heard that we have 2 types of souls: human and animal in Catholic doctrine. Or are you saying otherwise?
No, I am saying that, genetically, you are scarcely different from other primates, and only slightly more varied than other mammals. Catholic belief does not allow for two souls, but it does differentiate between body and soul, and you, like all other humans, have a body which is the product of millions of years of evolution. You are an animal in body.
 
It’s tempting to say that God the good and Satan is the evil, but notice especially that it does not state good versus evil, which would imply two Gods, and thus be heresy. No, we live in a world of good and evil. I feel that the good and evil work in conjunction with each other.

According to the Jewish Tanya, there exists two souls within us: The animal soul and the divine soul, which is similar to what Freud termed the id and superego, respectively. Our goal in life, according to the Tanya, is to crush the animal soul, similar to the way we are commanded to mortify the self in Christianity. This may be related to the knowledge of good and evil, but I feel that there is more to it.

Something tells me that to understand this is beyond our grasp, but well worth noting.
There are two ways of viewing this, both of them mentioned by Aquinas at one time or another. One is that the knowledge of good and evil means to take upon oneself the role of *determining *good and evil, Adam & Eve being a law unto themselves IOW, which is God’s province,alone.

The other view-which isn’t necessarily in conflict with the first- is based on the meaning of the Hebrew word for knowledge, which can mean direct, experiential knowledge, as to know one by sexual union, for example, which the bible uses the word for, or to know anything directly by actually *experiencing *it. In this sense Adam and Eve opened the door to knowledge which had never been theirs in their innocence. They had only known *good *prior to their own sin of disobedience (since that very act, itself, was evil by definition, being in opposition to God’s will). By that act they now stood “outside”, no longer in harmony with God, the universe, the truth, their very own natures. At any rate beginning with that first sin and all other sin that would follow, Adam & Eve would henceforth know evil, and by contrast, they would now know good, good previously being simply the *norm *in Eden as everything God made was good.
 
No, I am saying that, genetically, you are scarcely different from other primates, and only slightly more varied than other mammals. Catholic belief does not allow for two souls, but it does differentiate between body and soul, and you, like all other humans, have a body which is the product of millions of years of evolution. You are an animal in body.
I don’t think Science has ever found the missing link between ape and man, or between any two species for that matter. That means each species is unique. No matter how much genetic matter we share, we are humans with human souls and minds. No matter how much apes may resemble some humans, they have an ape souls and minds.

God made us higher than animals.
 
I don’t think Science has ever found the missing link between ape and man, or between any two species for that matter. That means each species is unique. No matter how much genetic matter we share, we are humans with human souls and minds. No matter how much apes may resemble some humans, they have an ape souls and minds.

God made us higher than animals.
The “missing link” is a myth made up by people with poor understanding of evolution. There is no such thing as a missing link. Humans evolved from their last common ancestor with apes with a series of genetic mutations over millions of years. One generation may be more human than the last, but there is no discrete number of species between humans and the last common ancestor with apes. It doesn’t go Ape-Half Ape-Human. There is a wide range of species for which we have fossil records which display hybrid characteristics, as the theory predicts. Additionally, apes have undergone simultaneous evolution. You could trace their lineage back to a common ancestor with humans, but they don’t appear in our direct genealogy.

How did I know you would be an evolution denier? I really weep for the education system you’ve been put through. Thanks for denting my faith in humanity, once again.

Besides, I believe the exact quote is that God ‘raised us up above all other creatures’. That doesn’t place humans in a different category.
 
There are two ways of viewing this, both of them mentioned by Aquinas at one time or another. One is that the knowledge of good and evil means to take upon oneself the role of *determining *good and evil, Adam & Eve being a law unto themselves IOW, which is God’s province,alone.

The other view-which isn’t necessarily in conflict with the first- is based on the meaning of the Hebrew word for knowledge, which can mean direct, experiential knowledge, as to know one by sexual union, for example, which the bible uses the word for, or to know anything directly by actually *experiencing *it. In this sense Adam and Eve opened the door to knowledge which had never been theirs in their innocence. They had only known *good *prior to their own sin of disobedience (since that very act, itself, was evil by definition, being in opposition to God’s will). By that act they now stood “outside”, no longer in harmony with God, the universe, the truth, their very own natures. At any rate beginning with that first sin and all other sin that would follow, Adam & Eve would henceforth know evil, and by contrast, they would now know good, good previously being simply the *norm *in Eden as everything God made was good.
I guess what I’m asking what is it that makes “evil” evil and “good” good? And, why did God care about this knowledge? I sense that this knowledge resulted in the contamination of the soul, but how? I also sense that God knew this type of knowledge would eventually lead to something undesirable, but what?
 
I guess what I’m asking what is it that makes “evil” evil and “good” good? And, why did God care about this knowledge? I sense that this knowledge resulted in the contamination of the soul, but how? I also sense that God knew this type of knowledge would eventually lead to something undesirable, but what?
Find a good Spiritual Director.
Advancing these various “theories” yourself is not edifying your soul.
 
Speak for yourself. I am a human, made in the image and likeness of God. The science of biology is blind to the presence of the human soul, therefore places humans in the animal kingdom. They are wrong. Humans are a separate and distinct class of living beings. We have no peers in the animal kingdom.
Since the term “animal soul” was used by the OP in the context of the Jewish Tanya, I understand this to mean, according to Jewish belief, that the human soul goes through a series of transformations to attain its most refined essence. Thus when the Tanya speaks of the animal soul, it is not really likening the human soul to that of an animal, but rather speaking in metaphorical terms of the most primitive form of the human soul.
 
My understanding of it is that it is the attempt to make good and evil relative, to contrive it for yourself, rather than seek more rigorous understanding of it by co-operation and millennia of philosophical debate and discussion.

Your genome says otherwise. Humans, by virtue of our vast intelligence and ability to understand, have a special place in the universe, and specific offices, but we are still animals, the product of evolution as every other species is. If you have a problem with that is suggest you read this: catholic.com/tracts/adam-eve-and-evolution. Though, I’d still hope you’d trust empirical science over theology in this regard.
My genome may help explain my physical and psychological makeup but it does not explain my immortal soul, which is also not explained by evolution. Please note the ban on evolution in philosophy forum.
 
My genome may help explain my physical and psychological makeup but it does not explain my immortal soul, which is also not explained by evolution. Please note the ban on evolution in philosophy forum.
And I have not claimed that it does it explain your soul, and made that very clear in my argument.
 
I guess what I’m asking what is it that makes “evil” evil and “good” good? And, why did God care about this knowledge? I sense that this knowledge resulted in the contamination of the soul, but how? I also sense that God knew this type of knowledge would eventually lead to something undesirable, but what?
What do you mean but what? It’s very well spelled out in Genesis! Man defied God. God gave Man everything good. God does not like to be defied. Man was cast out of Eden, just as Satan was cast out of Heaven. Don’t mess with God. He is all powerful and knows what is best for man. If you choose not to follow God then you will follow Satan. It’s **that **clear.
 
And I have not claimed that it does it explain your soul, and made that very clear in my argument.
Your response seemed to be a denial of the unique position the human beings occupy among the living beings. We have no peers.
 
What do you mean but what? It’s very well spelled out in Genesis! Man defied God. God gave Man everything good. God does not like to be defied. Man was cast out of Eden, just as Satan was cast out of Heaven. Don’t mess with God. He is all powerful and knows what is best for man. If you choose not to follow God then you will follow Satan. It’s **that **clear.
That’s a drastic oversimplification. For one, you first have to provide arguments to prove that disobeying God is tantamount to evil, see Aquinas an objectivity, and then you must understand the alegoric meaning behind why eating that fruit was something to which God was opposed, and why it existed in creation in the first place. The answer - morality is objective, endemic in the universe, and can be as such perceived by the mind of a human. It is when Adam and Eve eat this fruit and make it something of themselves that they attempt to make good and evil relative, instead of being directed by the objective good, that the order of the garden is undone.

To say “God doesn’t like to be disobeyed” is, whilst well meaning, a flare sent out to atheistic criticism.
 
I did answer the question. Good is God and Evil is Satan. That is the knowledge of good and evil.
Although I know why you say this, wording it like this, can bring with it dangerous misconceptions.

Our Creator is perfect; turning away from His GOODness - these guidelines for love are given in the written form of the Commandments and the teaching of the Beattitudes - is sinful, and to deliberately commit many of those acts against those guidelines is to commit evil and can be gravely damaging to the soul, as a consequence.

So the knowledge of good and evil are choices we can make that either keep our hearts oriented toward our Creator by accepting to live in His Good Grace that holds us up or choices that deliberately throw His graces away.

Of course, only our Creator can know how truly we meant to turn away from Him, to hurt Him, to want to do evil, when we sinned, which is why it is easier to let Him be the Judge, by discerning according to His commandments and Beattitudes, examining our conscience, and then attending the Sacrament of Reconciliation.
 
I guess what I’m asking what is it that makes “evil” evil and “good” good? And, why did God care about this knowledge? I sense that this knowledge resulted in the contamination of the soul, but how? I also sense that God knew this type of knowledge would eventually lead to something undesirable, but what?
Evil is classically defined as the absence or negation of good. It’s the lessening of or detracting from the goodness of anything. A broken arm is evil relative to a normal arm as the damaged arm’s purpose and function is impaired; it’s perfection has been compromised; it can no longer perfectly serve in its role as an arm. So evil is defined as the opposition or obstacle to achieving some perceived good. Evil has no reality of its own-apart from good, as everything in creation is good to begin with; nothing evil was created by God. Augustine put it this way, “The only possible source of evil, is good”.

Evil is a possibility due only to God’s giving part of His creation a particular good: free will, the abuse of which allows us to oppose* His* will. That opposition, itself, is sin, aka “moral evil”. In Eden Adam & Eve had no inclination to sin, no desire to rebel; the thought of murder or harming another wouldn’t even occur to them-and would be a complete anomaly in their world, a horrific one, if witnessed. Today it’s part of everyday life. We all know good and evil: the innate good of God’s creation, manifested in a myriad of ways, and the evil of sin, as well as the physical evils, pain, suffering, corruption, death-broken arms-that are said to be a consequence of man’s separation from God into this present exile away from Him, where not even faith- the knowledge of God-is sure. We’re lost… humankind is lost.

But there’s an upside. This knowledge of good and evil, that we experience morally, physically, viscerally, *directly *, has a purpose. By it, combined with an innate hope in something bigger and better and eternal, a hope that revealed and reveals Himself gradually to us as humankind becomes ready, we can come to know of our need for God, of his superior wisdom and goodness and trustworthiness, something Adam didn’t quite grasp, or something he rejected. The knowledge of good and evil can help us to learn the hard way, like prodigals, to appreciate and run to the Good alone. It’s a matter of the will-and God allowed the Fall to happen in order to *draw *our wills, and consequently ourselves, into perfection, aligned with His will, without coercion, having created His universe in a “state of journeying to perfection”, as the Church teaches. We can still always say no.
 
Evil is classically defined as the absence or negation of good. It’s the lessening of or detracting from the goodness of anything. A broken arm is evil relative to a normal arm as the damaged arm’s purpose and function is impaired; it’s perfection has been compromised; it can no longer perfectly serve in its role as an arm. So evil is defined as the opposition or obstacle to achieving some perceived good. Evil has no reality of its own-apart from good, as everything in creation is good to begin with; nothing evil was created by God. Augustine put it this way, “The only possible source of evil, is good”.

Evil is a possibility due only to God’s giving part of His creation a particular good: free will, the abuse of which allows us to oppose* His* will. That opposition, itself, is sin, aka “moral evil”. In Eden Adam & Eve had no inclination to sin, no desire to rebel; the thought of murder or harming another wouldn’t even occur to them-and would be a complete anomaly in their world, a horrific one, if witnessed. Today it’s part of everyday life. We all know good and evil: the innate good of God’s creation, manifested in a myriad of ways, and the evil of sin, as well as the physical evils, pain, suffering, corruption, death-broken arms-that are said to be a consequence of man’s separation from God into this present exile away from Him, where not even faith- the knowledge of God-is sure. We’re lost… humankind is lost.

But there’s an upside. This knowledge of good and evil, that we experience morally, physically, viscerally, *directly *, has a purpose. By it, combined with an innate hope in something bigger and better and eternal, a hope that revealed and reveals Himself gradually to us as humankind becomes ready, we can come to know of our need for God, of his superior wisdom and goodness and trustworthiness, something Adam didn’t quite grasp, or something he rejected. The knowledge of good and evil can help us to learn the hard way, like prodigals, to appreciate and run to the Good alone. It’s a matter of the will-and God allowed the Fall to happen in order to *draw *our wills, and consequently ourselves, into perfection, aligned with His will, without coercion, having created His universe in a “state of journeying to perfection”, as the Church teaches. We can still always say no.
Yes, what you say is informative.

Note that we do not believe that God’s creation ended-up “good,” but “very good,” which to many Jews means “evil.” I have a Jewish encyclopedia article on the meaning of “very good” if you’re interested.

I do not know why, but I sense that the knowledge evil contaminated something sacred and pure, and that this knowledge would have led to a corruption of what was once purely good, Consequentially would may have led to their destruction, had God not intervened and banish them from the Garden.
 
That’s a drastic oversimplification. For one, you first have to provide arguments to prove that disobeying God is tantamount to evil, see Aquinas an objectivity, and then you must understand the alegoric meaning behind why eating that fruit was something to which God was opposed, and why it existed in creation in the first place. The answer - morality is objective, endemic in the universe, and can be as such perceived by the mind of a human. It is when Adam and Eve eat this fruit and make it something of themselves that they attempt to make good and evil relative, instead of being directed by the objective good, that the order of the garden is undone.

To say “God doesn’t like to be disobeyed” is, whilst well meaning, a flare sent out to atheistic criticism.
I’m not going to try to soften the message for atheists! It’s pretty obvious that disobeying God is what got people into trouble throughout the Old Testament. As it says in the Lord’s Prayer “thy will be done”. God is very merciful to those who repent and turn away from the evil one, but those who willfully turn away from God and abuse his name have it coming to them in the end.
 
The “missing link” is a myth made up by people with poor understanding of evolution. There is no such thing as a missing link. Humans evolved from their last common ancestor with apes with a series of genetic mutations over millions of years. One generation may be more human than the last, but there is no discrete number of species between humans and the last common ancestor with apes. It doesn’t go Ape-Half Ape-Human. There is a wide range of species for which we have fossil records which display hybrid characteristics, as the theory predicts. Additionally, apes have undergone simultaneous evolution. You could trace their lineage back to a common ancestor with humans, but they don’t appear in our direct genealogy.

.
So there is no link between humans and apes just as I said.:rolleyes:

As for us all being made out of the same stuff, so what? Scientists call it DNA, today in the Old Testament they called it dust. It’s the matter of life, nothing odd about that. We all have bodies that break down and die, but mankind was formed in the image of God and given an everlasting soul, which is not made out of matter. (unless you are Mormon, but that’s a different matter!!)
 
It’s tempting to say that God the good and Satan is the evil, but notice especially that it does not state good versus evil, which would imply two Gods, and thus be heresy. No, we live in a world of good and evil. I feel that the good and evil work in conjunction with each other.

According to the Jewish Tanya, there exists two souls within us: The animal soul and the divine soul, which is similar to what Freud termed the id and superego, respectively. Our goal in life, according to the Tanya, is to crush the animal soul, similar to the way we are commanded to mortify the self in Christianity. This may be related to the knowledge of good and evil, but I feel that there is more to it.

Something tells me that to understand this is beyond our grasp, but well worth noting.
To get a decent answer, please visit the CCC, as this explains all about The Fall, Original Sin and will further explain about the knowledge of good and evil. It also explains how lucifer separated Himself from our Creator for eternity after being given a choice to love and trust our Creator or turn away from our Creator, and it explains how, as satan, the then fallen angel went on to tempt Adam and Eve into being disobedient when in the Garden of Eden. All beings, even satan, were and are, given a choice to love our Creator, or not.
 
Yes, what you say is informative.

Note that we do not believe that God’s creation ended-up “good,” but “very good,” which to many Jews means “evil.” I have a Jewish encyclopedia article on the meaning of “very good” if you’re interested.
Yes, I’d be interested in that if you find it. “Very good” could still mean less than perfect-and so…? I’d like to see where that leads. Anyway, thank you.
I do not know why, but I sense that the knowledge evil contaminated something sacred and pure, and that this knowledge would have led to a corruption of what was once purely good, Consequentially would may have led to their destruction, had God not intervened and banish them from the Garden.
I tend to think that their banishment from the garden was their exile from an environment or state where only good was know-where only good had been the status quo up until their sin. From then on evil would be known as well- in one way or another and to one degree or another by them and all their descendants. That knowledge itself signaled the corruption that had already occurred. Their shame and need to hide also demonstrated that they now “knew”.
 
The best way of describing the relationship between good and evil is to say that evil is a broken version of good. All evil has some good at its core, however messed up. Evil can’t exist without good, good can exist without evil.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top