What exactly is the knowledge of good and evil?

[Robert_Sock]

I don’t understand what you are saying here at all. Good and evil are always opposing each other. What do you mean about the last 150 years? What is more special about them than the last 3000 years? Technology? Moral depravity?

I say our world is sadly falling to ruin, because evil is getting a very firm hold. Good is being thrown out as being silly. What makes you think otherwise?

Nothing can oppose God and survive if God does not will it. This goes for evil too.

I used the last 150 years only because somebody wanted an example. If good and evil were at war with each other, it would imply two Gods, and our world would fall apart.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Nothing can oppose God and survive if God does not will it. This goes for evil too.

I used the last 150 years only because somebody wanted an example. If good and evil were at war with each other, it would imply two Gods, and our world would fall apart.

And where do you get that idea that the world would fall apart? Good and evil are always at war with each other. God always is stronger than evil. Although, like I said, evil has a very strong foothold these days.

 

[JuanFlorencio]

Nothing can oppose God and survive if God does not will it. This goes for evil too.

I used the last 150 years only because somebody wanted an example. If good and evil were at war with each other, it would imply two Gods, and our world would fall apart.

Robert,

I was the “somebody” who requested an example to you. I guess the last 150 years involve billions of examples, but I would like you to point to one of them; just one, Robert. Is that possible to you? Or is it that you are just playing with words?

If you insisted that the last 150 years involve the example you want to provide, I would simply respond that the last 150 years involve an example of a continuous struggle (not collaboration) of opposed powers.

 

[OneSheep]

Nothing can oppose God and survive if God does not will it. This goes for evil too.

I used the last 150 years only because somebody wanted an example. If good and evil were at war with each other, it would imply two Gods, and our world would fall apart.

Hear! Hear! Juan Florencio!

Robert, there is a difference between “willing” and “allowing”, right? Are you really suggesting that God wills evil to happen?

On the other hand, it certainly depends on your definition of evil, and specifically what you are talking about. For example, disease is evil, and earthquakes can be evil, but both of these are part of the construction of the universe. There is a faith in knowing that such natural phenomena play some role in the development of creation, as terrible as they are.

Is that what you are talking about?

Or, are you saying that God wills even the evil chosen by humans? This is more of an “allowance” than a “will”, correct?

Thanks, great topic Robert

 

[JuanFlorencio]

Hear! Hear! Juan Florencio!

Robert, there is a difference between “willing” and “allowing”, right? Are you really suggesting that God wills evil to happen?

On the other hand, it certainly depends on your definition of evil, and specifically what you are talking about. For example, disease is evil, and earthquakes can be evil, but both of these are part of the construction of the universe. There is a faith in knowing that such natural phenomena play some role in the development of creation, as terrible as they are.

Is that what you are talking about?

Or, are you saying that God wills even the evil chosen by humans? This is more of an “allowance” than a “will”, correct?

Thanks, great topic Robert

I am hearing you and Robert, OneSheep; and I want to hear Robert’s concrete example as well.

Though Robert does not clarify what are his “good” and his “evil”, he states that a “war” (he does not mention what does this “war” mean) would imply two gods (but he doesn’t say why), and his statement according to which “if there is a war between good and evil, our world would fall apart” is gratuitous. Evidently, one could answer: “the falling apart of our world takes time” or some other equally gratuitous statement. It depends on how imaginative you are.

Obviously, natural phenomena always result in something, but to say that everything (everything!) happens according to a plan is an exaggeration that requires the strange faith that you are mentioning. I guess the fact that species are dissapearing, instead of a sign that our world is falling apart, is -according to your faith- a sign that the creation is developing. Certainly a kind of faith is necessary to “see” construction where there is destruction.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Hear! Hear! Juan Florencio!

Robert, there is a difference between “willing” and “allowing”, right? Are you really suggesting that God wills evil to happen?

On the other hand, it certainly depends on your definition of evil, and specifically what you are talking about. For example, disease is evil, and earthquakes can be evil, but both of these are part of the construction of the universe. There is a faith in knowing that such natural phenomena play some role in the development of creation, as terrible as they are.

Is that what you are talking about?

Or, are you saying that God wills even the evil chosen by humans? This is more of an “allowance” than a “will”, correct?

Thanks, great topic Robert

My topic is: “What exactly is the knowledge of good and evil?” I honestly do not know what they are or how to define them, but from the verse in Genesis, it sounds like good and evil are working in conjunction with each other which would produce a state of being that is qualitatively different from our experiencing these constructs in and of themselves.

The word “knowledge” may also be key to understanding this verse. My sense here is that something sacred got contaminated within Adam and Eve, and we can sense that it was tragic because the Tree of Life, which would allow them to live through eternity, was taken from them.

Instead of being a concrete thinker, I admit my ignorance here and treat it as being ambiguous. The Catholic Church, to the best of my knowledge, does not try to understand these verses and glosses over them superficially by merely stating its consequences. I think that the Kabbala does a better job, but it seems so esoteric to me. One thing it does say is that there were sacred vessels of light that so intense for the lower worlds that they shattered. Supposedly, our goal as humans is to gather all the holy sparks of light that got scattered. Knowing that we do not know something can be a key component to wisdom.

 

[OneSheep]

My topic is: “What exactly is the knowledge of good and evil?” I honestly do not know what they are or how to define them, but from the verse in Genesis, it sounds like good and evil are working in conjunction with each other which would produce a state of being that is qualitatively different from our experiencing these constructs in and of themselves.

The word “knowledge” may also be key to understanding this verse. My sense here is that something sacred got contaminated within Adam and Eve, and we can sense that it was tragic because the Tree of Life, which would allow them to live through eternity, was taken from them.

Instead of being a concrete thinker, I admit my ignorance here and treat it as being ambiguous. The Catholic Church, to the best of my knowledge, does not try to understand these verses and glosses over them superficially by merely stating its consequences. I think that the Kabbala does a better job, but it seems so esoteric to me. One thing it does say is that there were sacred vessels of light that so intense for the lower worlds that they shattered. Supposedly, our goal as humans is to gather all the holy sparks of light that got scattered. Knowing that we do not know something can be a key component to wisdom.

Well, if we are using Genesis 3, I don’t see any reason to extend the story beyond its intent. If we look at the effects of Adam and Eve eating from the fruit, the only apparent effect was that A&E felt shame about being naked. And then: 22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.

As opposed to, say, dogs, which have no shame about nudity and PDA.

So, the story is about morality coming from God, among other themes. Certainly those leaders striving to keep their tribes in line would emphasize that morality comes from the source of life itself, not something to defy as did A&E.

Is there a reason to make more of the definitions?

 

[HelenRose]

My take on this statement is this is what separates human beings from animals.

Animals have no knowledge of good and evil. They do what they do period.

Human beings are different. Adam and Eve knew that eating the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil was wrong. Yet, they did it anyway. They wanted to experience evil. They wanted to know what that was all about.

It is a subtle drive we all seem to have. Evil is strangely attractive.

 

[fhansen]

My take on this statement is this is what separates human beings from animals.

Animals have no knowledge of good and evil. They do what they do period.

Human beings are different. Adam and Eve knew that eating the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil was wrong. Yet, they did it anyway. They wanted to experience evil. They wanted to know what that was all about.

It is a subtle drive we all seem to have. Evil is strangely attractive.

Yes, but I tend to think that knowledge-of almost any kind- is attractive, as it promises a certain superiority or godliness just by having it. The decision to be made in any case was whether or not to trust God in what He said, or to see for themselves what was on the other side.

 

[OneSheep]

My take on this statement is this is what separates human beings from animals.

Animals have no knowledge of good and evil. They do what they do period.

Yes, I agree. The story writers also observed that humans have a lot more trouble giving birth than other species, nor do other species “toil the ground” etc.

Human beings are different. Adam and Eve knew that eating the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil was wrong. Yet, they did it anyway. They wanted to experience evil. They wanted to know what that was all about.

It is a subtle drive we all seem to have. Evil is strangely attractive.

Hmmm. Well, knowledge it itself is not-so-strangely attractive, right? It is fair to observe that humans were created curious about everything and wanting to have the freedom to explore wherever they want. God made us that way, and God also made us with the capacity for desire-induced blindness, so defiance of authority was bound to happen.

Do you see what I mean?

 

[Robert_Sock]

Well, if we are using Genesis 3, I don’t see any reason to extend the story beyond its intent. If we look at the effects of Adam and Eve eating from the fruit, the only apparent effect was that A&E felt shame about being naked. And then: 22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.

As opposed to, say, dogs, which have no shame about nudity and PDA.

So, the story is about morality coming from God, among other themes. Certainly those leaders striving to keep their tribes in line would emphasize that morality comes from the source of life itself, not something to defy as did A&E.

Is there a reason to make more of the definitions?

How does a person know when he or she does not know something? For many, beliefs are based on concrete thinking and an aversion as to developing a tolerance for ambiguity.

Your understanding may very well be correct, but I sense there exists a much deeper explanation that we are unaware of. For example, if you grew up studying the Kabbalah, your definition would likely be deeper.

Too often we accept or reject something when it would be wiser to simply take note.

 

[OneSheep]

How does a person know when he or she does not know something? For many, beliefs are based on concrete thinking and an aversion as to developing a tolerance for ambiguity.

Your understanding may very well be correct, but I sense there exists a much deeper explanation that we are unaware of. For example, if you grew up studying the Kabbalah, your definition would likely be deeper.

Too often we accept or reject something when it would be wiser to simply take note.

We can accept or reject based on our own experience of existence, that is the only frame of reference we have. So, I have read enough Kabbalah to have gotten the general gist of it, and I found it still somewhat dualistic, which does not jibe with my understanding of Christianity. It’s been awhile, but that is what I remember. Yes, we can expand our own frame of reference by reading those of other faiths, that is good.

Yes, there is a humility in the wisdom of, “one cannot know everything” and yes, it is impossible to know whether we have all the necessary information to make a totally informed conclusion. My own conclusions have the predicate “for now”.

Here is my “knowledge” of evil: If we think negatively about any part of creation, including the parts of ourselves (such that we would label them “evil”), we are living in an illusion. This observation does not effect the application of the label to actions, which are on more of a black/white continuum.

 

[Robert_Sock]

We can accept or reject based on our own experience of existence, that is the only frame of reference we have. So, I have read enough Kabbalah to have gotten the general gist of it, and I found it still somewhat dualistic, which does not jibe with my understanding of Christianity. It’s been awhile, but that is what I remember. Yes, we can expand our own frame of reference by reading those of other faiths, that is good.

Yes, there is a humility in the wisdom of, “one cannot know everything” and yes, it is impossible to know whether we have all the necessary information to make a totally informed conclusion. My own conclusions have the predicate “for now”.

Here is my “knowledge” of evil: If we think negatively about any part of creation, including the parts of ourselves (such that we would label them “evil”), we are living in an illusion. This observation does not effect the application of the label to actions, which are on more of a black/white continuum.

Our innermost being is spiritual in nature. Moreover, we know that the spirit can be good or evil. Thus, there are aspects of ourselves which are evil. The body itself is just a mass of impulses and reflexes, driven by good and evil spirit.

 

[friardchips]

Our innermost being is spiritual in nature. Moreover, we know that the spirit can be good or evil. Thus, there are aspects of ourselves which are evil. The body itself is just a mass of impulses and reflexes, driven by good and evil spirit.

I think I have the answer from which might help your thinking.

You say: "…it sounds like good and evil are working in conjunction with each other which would produce a state of being that is qualitatively different from our experiencing these constructs in and of themselves."

• maybe it is that you are not taking into account that the Creator is outside of time and therefore not bound by its constraints, and so you then see this as if He is the Author of both good and evil, with both playing an intended part proceeding from His Will, rather than acknowledging that He allows for evil and heals between events that turn bad, bringing them back to His Will - He knows everything is going to happen and how it is to happen, because He is both the Beginning and End, or End and New Beginning and in His Glory has preempted the devil and has shared with us His Mercy to heal our mortally sinful choices - and so can heal and create good consequences, eventually from bad. You are misinterpreting, because you are analysing from a perception looking at time from within time, and surmising that He has to commit both good and evil in order for things to play out how He wants, but if He is Eternal, then He already IS, and as ‘Psalm 138 - The Lord Knows The Human Heart’ reads: ‘Your eyes saw all my actions, they were all of them written in your book.’

Maybe it is this understanding that so far has evaded you?

 

[CHRISTINE77]

We can accept or reject based on our own experience of existence, that is the only frame of reference we have. So, I have read enough Kabbalah to have gotten the general gist of it, and I found it still somewhat dualistic, which does not jibe with my understanding of Christianity. It’s been awhile, but that is what I remember. Yes, we can expand our own frame of reference by reading those of other faiths, that is good.

Yes, there is a humility in the wisdom of, “one cannot know everything” and yes, it is impossible to know whether we have all the necessary information to make a totally informed conclusion. My own conclusions have the predicate “for now”.

Here is my “knowledge” of evil: If we think negatively about any part of creation, including the parts of ourselves (such that we would label them “evil”), we are living in an illusion. This observation does not effect the application of the label to actions, which are on more of a black/white continuum.

I know you like to learn and explore ideas, Robert, but be careful not to get too esoteric. I have known people who have studied eastern religions, and eventually came to the conclusion that there really is no evil. It’s a slippery slope. Satan likes that kind of thinking.:sad_yes:

 

[HelenRose]

Yes, I agree. The story writers also observed that humans have a lot more trouble giving birth than other species, nor do other species “toil the ground” etc.

Hmmm. Well, knowledge it itself is not-so-strangely attractive, right? It is fair to observe that humans were created curious about everything and wanting to have the freedom to explore wherever they want. God made us that way, and God also made us with the capacity for desire-induced blindness, so defiance of authority was bound to happen.

Do you see what I mean?

Yes, but with all that God gave them to explore and with minds to explore with they were still drawn to that tree.

We are still drawn away from the wonders of this world and wonders of God to explore that which we know or suspect might hurt us.

In my mind that is a great mystery.

I am always fascinated with the story of Adam and Eve. I don’t get into the argument as to whether or not this is a “factual” story or if it is as “Truth in Poetry”.

It tells us so much about human nature.

 

[Robert_Sock]

I think I have the answer from which might help your thinking.

You say: "…it sounds like good and evil are working in conjunction with each other which would produce a state of being that is qualitatively different from our experiencing these constructs in and of themselves."

• maybe it is that you are not taking into account that the Creator is outside of time and therefore not bound by its constraints, and so you then see this as if He is the Author of both good and evil, with both playing an intended part proceeding from His Will, rather than acknowledging that He allows for evil and heals between events that turn bad, bringing them back to His Will - He knows everything is going to happen and how it is to happen, because He is both the Beginning and End, or End and New Beginning - he has preempted the devil and has shared with us His Mercy to heal our bad choices - and so can heal and create good consequences, eventually from bad. You are misinterpreting, because you are analysing from a perception looking at time from within time, and surmising that He has to commit both good and evil in order for things to play out how He wants, but if He is Eternal, then He already IS, and as ‘Psalm 138 - The Lord Knows The Human Heart’ reads: ‘Your eyes saw all my actions, they were all of them written in your book.’

Maybe it is this understanding that so far has evaded you?

After some very powerful spiritual experiences, I now tend to take notes instead of accepting or rejecting something that may be ambiguous in meaning. What I wrote above reflect my current view that is subject to change at any point.

Yes, God work outside of time, and nothing truly exists except God.

 

[friardchips]

After some very powerful spiritual experiences, I now tend to take notes instead of accepting or rejecting something that may be ambiguous in meaning. What I wrote above reflect my current view that is subject to change at any point.

Yes, God work outside of time, and nothing truly exists except God.

Okay, but what is ‘ambiguous’? The knowledge of good and evil? Because this Genesis passage could only be ambiguous to someone who is not reading it in connection with the rest of the Bible. IMO.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Okay, but what is ‘ambiguous’? The knowledge of good and evil? Because this Genesis passage could only be ambiguous to someone who is not reading it in connection with the rest of the Bible. IMO.

Study the Kabbalah and tell me it does not reflect something much deeper. The rest of the bible deals with the harsh consequences of possessing the knowledge of good and evil. OTOH, perhaps I’m wrong; perhaps we need to take this passage at face value, but I’m still lost in defining “good” and “evil.” To say, for example, that evil is simply the absence of good does not make sense to me because there is “good” in this otherwise miserable and corrupt world. From my view of this world, good and evil are working together for the sake of our salvation.

 

[friardchips]

Study the Kabbalah and tell me it does not reflect something much deeper. The rest of the bible deals with the harsh consequences of possessing the knowledge of good and evil. OTOH, perhaps I’m wrong; perhaps we need to take this passage at face value, but I’m still lost in defining “good” and “evil.” To say, for example, that evil is simply the absence of good does not make sense to me because there is “good” in this otherwise miserable and corrupt world. From my view of this world, good and evil are working together for the sake of our salvation.

Evil and good definitely don’t work together. “Grace upon nature”, remember?! Look at the practical happenings in the world and you will see that evil and good definitely do not work together but rather fight against each other. Start with practical reality and aim upwards from there.