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Linusthe2nd
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Where else could they be, in your knees? Well, we all know where they are in some people - just a joke
. But it really is a good question. I hope someone has the answer.Linus2nd
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. But it really is a good question. I hope someone has the answer.Linus2nd
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GEddie
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It could be that words and images appear to reside in our heads simply because we see and hear from our heads 
ICXC NIKA
ICXC NIKA
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Crown_of_Stars
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Our soul is a spiritual essence we were given by God at our conception, at the moment of our creation. Our soul is the reason we were put on this earth, and it is the most important part of us…which will either end up in heaven, for eternity, purgatory, for a time, or damned to hell forever. And we need to understand right and wrong, according to the unchanging law of God, and live our earthly life as faithfully as we know how, in hopes of returning to our true “Home.”
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Aloysium
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i do not know what it is about areas of the brain that particularly makes some visual and others auditory. I do not believe that variations in the structure of proteins within the particular cells cause this. It would mean that the chemicals involved or the changes they are going through are sound or colour or taste in themselves. There are many problems reducing experience to simple chemical activity happening solely in a small area of the brain. It is my preferred view that sees body and spirit coming together to form a new being whose nature goes beyond the rules that describe either of these two diverse dimensions. Now, there is a fellow who suffered a stroke to his thalamus. Recovering from it, some nerve tracts grew to the wrong area of the cortex so that he could taste colours. Along these lines, it is known that some people Hear in colour. The mystery gets deeper when we realize that we connect to the world through our thoughts, feelings and senses. This entire infinitely complicated system is not limited to the what occurs under the surface of the skin. It is not possible to explain in terms of purely physical processes, how a whole experience such as you reading this occurs from the myriad biochemical events happening as you carry out the activity. It’s late and I don’t have enough time to figure it out tonight. Suffice to say, it is obvious that a slice of brain in a dish will not produce any thoughts in anyone’s head. Who would be experiencing whatever is the reality of the physiological events that follow a stimulation of the connected cells? I just want to add that it is easy to fall into ignorance and confusion trying to put together disparate facts and ideas especially when they involve different categories of phenomena.
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Faith1960
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I have OCD and take meds to alter my brain chemistry. They help calm the thoughts and worries I have in my head. If what some here are saying is true, the meds wouldnt be geered toward the brain and brain chemistry and wouldnt be helping me.
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GEddie
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Synaesthesia (the crossing of human senses so as to eg. hear color or smell sounds) is well established. It is believed to result from extra crossings of synapses in the head.
Although it is a mystery to those not possessing Synaesthesia (while synaesthetics are baffled that everybody doesn’t perceive life in this way), it seems that everybody has the rudiments of these crossings, which is why we say “sharp” sounds or “loud” colors.
ICXC NIKA
Although it is a mystery to those not possessing Synaesthesia (while synaesthetics are baffled that everybody doesn’t perceive life in this way), it seems that everybody has the rudiments of these crossings, which is why we say “sharp” sounds or “loud” colors.
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Aloysium
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No one said your brain is not involved. It is necessary for thought. With thought disorders there is a disorganization in how various parts of the brain communicate. I have a friend with Schizophrenic Disorder who is one of the holiest people I know. Although he has quite intuitive insights and could probably best many secular university philosophy professors discussing religion, unfortunately, his thoughts can carry him away with them to beliefs that make no sense. He takes his medication regularly and manages with his disability. With attention deficit disorder people have problems focussing and staying with their tasks. These are medical problems not that different than say kidney disease. The spirit truly is willing but the body is not functioning properly. We are one body-soul. In the resurrection it will all be good.
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Blue_Horizon
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If dead, then there’s no body anyway sorry.
Just a collection of sophisticated organic chemicals slowly turning into less sophisticated organic chemicals.
The real issue here is how sophisticated does the soul have to be to support a sophisticated body.
I and others maintain that the Aristotelian soul may be much simpler in its powers than Aristotle proposes.
This is because the matter animated by a “lesser” soul may well be sophisticated enough to explain “materially” the extra powers (eg memory, intellect, free-will) the ancients felt could only be explained by locating them in the soul itself.
Its pretty obvious to those who believe in a falsifiable philosophising (like Aristotle) that the tide is now in favour of most of memory being explicable by the body animated by a lesser animal like soul.
Free-will and intellect?
Well, I think the odds are that something higher than an animal like soul is needed, at least for the higher levels of reasoning.
Many traditionalists say that the extraction and identification of universals from/in the sensible world (which is a form of reasoning) requires a higher soul, animals cannot do this. Universals are “spiritual” (not material) and for some reason must therefore be powered by a purely spiritual intellect.
I disagree. My camera can “know” what a universal is by reason of mathematic formulae which in fact represents the universal (eg the equation for an ellipse) and is stored in, yes, physical electronic memory.
Even Aquinas recognises that maths is spiritual in nature. He never realised that matter was capable of doing maths unfortunately. If he stumbled on a calculator I am sure he would want to accord it a soul of some sorts.
Then the camera looks for sensible examples of these immaterial ellipses in the image (ie individual faces) and boxes them.
OK, these are the most basic of universals, but it certainly is detection of particular sensible material world examples of a non-material universal held in “memory.”
Personally I think abstraction of universals and discovery of new material examples based on that abstraction…is not a very high example of “reasoning” at all.
Time to put this one into the philosophic rubbish bin of history along with Wizard of Oz assertions that animals have no language or tool using abilities.
But as I say, higher types of human reasoning may require a more sophisticated soul than animals possess…but that still doesn’t seem to necessarily mean much of the intellectual heavy lifting still cannot be largely contracted out to the body…a body supporting far more complex brain structures and active brain-based reasoning capacity than a chimp soul could support in its body. Why call it an “intellectual soul”, why not call it a better animal soul capable of supporting an even more complex brain.
As for the model of the brain as but a passive instrument played by the totally active immaterial intellectual soul…that terrain is slowly succumbing to global warming sorry.
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inocente
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Well now, do I believe that they made those errors in logic or that you did? Decisions, decisions.I am using the kind of reasoning that Aristotle used when writing On the Soul, Sense and the Sensible, and Memory and Reminiscience. So take your pick
Aristotle regarded it as a part of the natural order, so did Aquinas. I know it is hard on modern ears. Every thing God created is a part of the natural order - even angels.
Just taking after Aristotle, who regraded philosophical truth as the summit of man’s search for truth. But since his time, that has been superceded by Revelation.
Not only mine but Aristotle’s and Aquinas’ as well.
btw given that one of them coined the phrase truth cannot contradict truth, you might wish to reconsider your invention of “philosophical truth” as opposed to the plain old regular kind of truth.
You’ve not provided any evidence for that, but it’s your religious belief so I won’t push it.
I very much doubt that, as I think it unlikely that the first Christians mixed up Aristotle’s opinions with scripture, or that the Reformation had anything to do with differing philosophies of mind.
I very much doubt that Aristotle would agree with your notion that some things are necessarily hidden, since the presence of the occult would make philosophy pointless, as all inquiry would end with hidden causes. Anyway it’s a good job that neuroscientists, including Catholic neuroscientists, don’t believe in the occult, or at the slightest difficulty they’d say “there you go, told you, it’s forever hidden, anyone for golf?”.
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inocente
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Linusthe2nd
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For your enlightenment: On the nature of man, newadvent.org/cathen/09580c.htmWell now, do I believe that they made those errors in logic or that you did? Decisions, decisions.
btw given that one of them coined the phrase truth cannot contradict truth, you might wish to reconsider your invention of “philosophical truth” as opposed to the plain old regular kind of truth.
You’ve not provided any evidence for that, but it’s your religious belief so I won’t push it.
I very much doubt that, as I think it unlikely that the first Christians mixed up Aristotle’s opinions with scripture, or that the Reformation had anything to do with differing philosophies of mind.
I very much doubt that Aristotle would agree with your notion that some things are necessarily hidden, since the presence of the occult would make philosophy pointless, as all inquiry would end with hidden causes. Anyway it’s a good job that neuroscientists, including Catholic neuroscientists, don’t believe in the occult, or at the slightest difficulty they’d say “there you go, told you, it’s forever hidden, anyone for golf?”.
From the Refermation on there was a spreading reliance on one’s own authority as opposed to the traditional teaching of the past. And that has led to the present state of confusion.
Linus2nd
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yppop
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InocenteWell now, do I believe that they made those errors in logic or that you did? Decisions, decisions.
btw given that one of them coined the phrase truth cannot contradict truth, you might wish to reconsider your invention of “philosophical truth” as opposed to the plain old regular kind of truth.
You’ve not provided any evidence for that, but it’s your religious belief so I won’t push it.
I very much doubt that, as I think it unlikely that the first Christians mixed up Aristotle’s opinions with scripture, or that the Reformation had anything to do with differing philosophies of mind.
I very much doubt that Aristotle would agree with your notion that some things are necessarily hidden, since the presence of the occult would make philosophy pointless, as all inquiry would end with hidden causes. Anyway it’s a good job that neuroscientists, including Catholic neuroscientists, don’t believe in the occult, or at the slightest difficulty they’d say “there you go, told you, it’s forever hidden, anyone for golf?”.
Here are three questions I addressed to you in mu post 142 that you never answered:
- What do you guys [you and Juan] believe is the difference between the brain and the mind?
- Is there nothing additional that distinguishes the mind from the brain; something “immaterial” that could be considered “spiritual”?
- And if there is something spiritual that forms a composite to create the mind, what is its function?
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Richca
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The schematics showing how the immaterial spiritual substance of the human soul interfaces with the material brain and the rest of the human body are what the scientists are observing in a living body under electron microscopes and what have you. They are observing molecules and chemical reactions; atoms and parts of atoms; electromagnetism and electrical charges and impulses; etc. All such things constitute that part of man which is his material, physical body. If your asking for an observable schematic of the soul itself, this is not possible for modern science and the means it uses. The soul, being immaterial, cannot be observed either under an electron microscope, in an atom smasher, with any of our exterior senses or interior senses such as the imagination, or anything else. The immateriality or spirituality of the human soul can only be known by the intellect which is itself an immaterial power of the soul as well as our will.
A philosophy of materialism or physicalism which it appears to me you are a proponent of because of the knowledge we have gained about the material, physical world from modern science is not an invention of modern science. Such a theory of the world was held by most of the pre-Socratic greek philosophers over 2500 years ago. In this sense, modern materialism or physicalism is nothing but a resurrection of pre-Socratic ancient greek philosophical theory. A pre-Socratic philosophical advancement was made by Anaxorgoras who introduced the concept of Mind as the ulitimate principle that underlies what we observe in the world and nature and of whom Aristotle says in his metaphysics that he “stood out like a sober man from the random talkers that had preceded him.” Anaxagoras though did not fully develop his theory of the distinction between mind and matter or the spiritual and the corporeal. This was left to later thinkers such as Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle. These later fully developed the distinction between sense, imagination and the intellect, the material and the immaterial. Modern materialism and physicalism is a product of sense and imagination as it was to many of the pre-Socratic philosophers even though the modern natural sciences such as physics, chemisty, and biology use concepts that cannot be sensed or imagined.
What is interesting to note here is that modern physics tells us that there are certain forces of nature or properties of matter or substances such as electrical charges, electromagnetism and magnetism, and gravity. To the best of my knowledge, these properties of matter and substances are not actually observed, we only see the effects of these properties. Modern physics has introduced mathematical theories of fields to explain such effects, the fields themselves to the best of my knowledge are not seen; they are mathematical equations if I’m not mistaken. Do we actually see electrical charges or magnetic fields? I think we can only infer that there are such phenomenon as for example if one puts two magnets close to each other they either repel or attract. Such phenomenon Aristotle calls forms or accidental forms of material substances. Beyond the invisible, physical properties of material substances, reality contains many other “invisible”, immaterial concepts and qualities such as goodness and evil, truth and falsity, beauty, morals, reward and punishment, virtues and vices, law, free will, understanding, and God which is simply beyond the scope of the natural sciences. Philosophically, this is the realm of metaphysics.
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Aloysium
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You are mostly preaching to the choir here; there’s no need for that tone.
I would agree that the noxious gases of poorly thought out ideas have caused what were once solid understandings, to melt into a watered down and vague confusion which drowns the terra firma of truth.
Let’s go through this slowly:
The body, including the brain was created to allow us use of the sophisticated spiritual gifts given to us by God.
The soul is the obvious source of such mental properties as memory, intellect and love since these do not exist as a consequence of some magical, as yet to be determined force or property of matter.
There is a unity that is the person - mind does not control matter.
The person acts and perceives as one entity, existing in and relating to a cosmos of matter and spirit.
It is obvious that memory and rudimentary instinctive thought is a feature of the animal soul.
Free-will and intellect demonstrate the existence of a different type of being in mankind - one who participates in the creation of himself, whose existence is rooted outside time and who has the capacity to love and not merely react hormonally.
To say that a camera can “know”, and to claim that there exists physical electronic memory that is in any shape and form similar to human memory is to engage in pretty wild and unusual anthropomorphizing.
Cameras do not look for anything; there is only the activity of motors and a flurry of +/- electronic changes, programmed by persons who have understanding and can act on it.
I would agree that to say that animals do not use tools or language is short sighted; my cat will use the iPad to chase virtual critters moving across the screen as much as I permit, and just this morning she gave a clear, irrefutable dissertation, with a concrete example yet, of why I should be more diligent about cleaning her liiter box.
Let’s agree that with regards to intellect, animals are to grass as humans are to giant redwoods; not at all in the same ballpark. Poor Wizard of Oz, always someone wanting to usurp his position.
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Aloysium
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You have not considered the possibility that you do not understand the concept of the human spiritual soul, and are trying to jam it into categories where it does not belong - the material and the occult.
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Faith1960
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Many peoples answers, including yours, are over my head (no pun intended,) So do you agree one thinks with their brain or not? Yes or no.
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Aloysium
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You are a living person and you are able to think as such. There is no division between spirit and matter in a living human being
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Faith1960
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I disagree. Without the functioning of the brain, we cant use the toilet. We cant think. We cant recognize an itch and scratch it. We cant do anything. Its the full functioning of the BRAIN that allows all those things and more.
disabled-world.com/artman/publish/brain-facts.shtml
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Aloysium
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You misunderstand.
Of course you need a brain. No one questions this.
A person is a unity of body and spirit. Regardless of any disability affecting brain function, the person remains human.
I’m not sure that I can explain this any better than I have over many postings.
I regret I have not been able to help you with your questions.
Hoping and praying for the best in your search for answers.
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Faith1960
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Im not disputing that.
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