What first made you a devout Christian?

[elvisman]

I do not think that free will is a biblical doctrine, I believe that you have free will to a point.
However your free will does not supersede the will of God. If it did God would not be a sovereign God.
2 timothy 1 ;9 says God saved for his purpose and grace give us before the world began. Our salvation was determined in eternity pass.

That’s the problem. You take one line of Scripture out of context and create an entire doctrine around it - even though there are many passages that would render your understanding contradictory, even though it’s not.

Our salvation was determined before the world began - but not because God forced us to believe.
He sees everyting from its beginning for eternity because he is not constrained by time. Think of it as seeing everything as a finished painting. Whereas he can look at this painting and know what choices you made, he doesn’t force them on you.

However - he doesn’t force us to believe in him or to obey him. He reveals himself to us and it is up to US to either follow or reject him. God doesn’t predestine anybody for hell. If he did - he would be nothing short of a monster who takes pleasure in suffering - we know he does not. He wants everybody to be saved.

The following verses deny the false doctrine of irresistable grace:
2 Cor 6, 1 Timothy 2.3-42, Peter 31, John 2.

These passages reject the false doctrine of guaranteed security - “Once Saved Always Saved”:
Matthew 24.10-13, John 15.10, 1 Timothy 4 1, Romans 11:21, Galatians 6:7-8, Philippians 3:11-14, 1 Timothy 1:18-19, Hebrews 6:4-62, Peter 2:20, 2 Peter 3:16, Revelation 3:5

 

[distracted]

Cradle Catholic myself. My spell in the “wilderness” is what did it for me. I was catechized but always believed that it was by indoctrination rather than my free will that lead me to belief in the Real Presence and that I knew no better. I never had a problem with this, in fact I truly believed the Church to be THE Church spoken and established by Jesus as told to Peter in the NT. However I also believed there was a reason why God allowed Protestantism to emerge and grow and I wanted to know from their personal perspective (rather than from the books I devoured) what the differences was between my Christianity and their (non-Catholic) Christianity. But frankly I felt it was much easier to be Protestant than to be Catholic and didnt think it was such a big deal to God so long as I was Christian and didnt abuse His Church. I wouldnt have to go to “confession” but confess directly to God was a huge attraction for me. In the end it was the Eucharist that brought me home. I returned on my own free will and am forever grateful to the “indoctrination” of my youth.

The years I spent searching for another church to suit my needs only confused me AND strengthened my belief in His Church’s teaching. I’m still a sinner but now I dont try to brush it under the carpet.

i can relate… it seems that non-Catholics try to… well, ignore their sins… because they believe their sins are covered by the Cross… and “it is finished” meaning they don’t have to do much of anything… .No expiation, etc… They’re in for a big surprise when they find themselves in Purgatory having to get cleansed of all that… stuff that they “brush under the carpet”… I heard that Protestants spend more time in Purgatory than Catholics… have no problme believing that… I just hope they make it there… i say this in light of that sciprutre about “storing up wrath for the day of wrath”. and then there’s the one “God’s spirit will not alwys strive with man.” I do think, though, that if one is filled with the HS, one will not stray too far… usually…

I did read that story about (I think it was) the Green River killer who was a born-again Crhistian before he went on the killing spree… So… just goes to show you… you have to be always vigilant and can not take sin lightly…

 

[allischalmers]

That’s the problem. You take one line of Scripture out of context and create an entire doctrine around it - even though there are many passages that would render your understanding contradictory, even though it’s not.

Our salvation was determined before the world began - but not because God forced us to believe.
He sees everyting from its beginning for eternity because he is not constrained by time. Think of it as seeing everything as a finished painting. Whereas he can look at this painting and know what choices you made, he doesn’t force them on you.

However - he doesn’t force us to believe in him or to obey him. He reveals himself to us and it is up to US to either follow or reject him. God doesn’t predestine anybody for hell. If he did - he would be nothing short of a monster who takes pleasure in suffering - we know he does not. He wants everybody to be saved.

The following verses deny the false doctrine of irresistable grace:
2 Cor 6, 1 Timothy 2.3-42, Peter 31, John 2.

These passages reject the false doctrine of guaranteed security - "Once Saved Always Saved":
Matthew 24.10-13, John 15.10, 1 Timothy 4 1, Romans 11:21, Galatians 6:7-8, Philippians 3:11-14, 1 Timothy 1:18-19, Hebrews 6:4-62, Peter 2:20, 2 Peter 3:16, Revelation 3:5

Predestination is not about some being predestinated to heaven or hell.
It is a term used to point out the guarantee future destiny of the child of God and it is a key component.of OSAS.
In Ephesians 1: 2 it states that He has chosen us before the fountation of the world. The believer is designated as elect and chosen. (Ephesians chapter one.)(John 15:19) Jesus said "Ye have not chosen me, But I have chosen you. they did not originate the choice: He did.

 

[elvisman]

Predestination is not about some being predestinated to heaven or hell.
It is a term used to point out the guarantee future destiny of the child of God and it is a key component.of OSAS.
In Ephesians 1: 2 it states that He has chosen us before the fountation of the world. The believer is designated as elect and chosen. (Ephesians chapter one.)(John 15:19) Jesus said "Ye have not chosen me, But I have chosen you. they did not originate the choice: He did.

Again - you are confusing God’s choosing you with your ability to refuse his grace and turn away.

**The Scriptures are filled with passages (that I have already provided you with) that refute guaranteed eternal security. **
(Matthew 24.10-13, John 15.10, 1 Timothy 4 1, Romans 11:21, Galatians 6:7-8, Philippians 3:11-14, 1 Timothy 1:18-19, Hebrews 6:4-62, Peter 2:20, 2 Peter 3:16, Revelation 3:5)
You must read the Scriptures in CONTEXT to come to the correct conclusion.

This is the tragedy of Protestantism. One confused, differing, contradictory doctrine after another based on a man’s opinion instead of God’s way.

 

[distracted]

In Ephesians 1: 2 it states that He has chosen us before the fountation of the world. The believer is designated as elect and chosen. (Ephesians chapter one.)(John 15:19) Jesus said "Ye have not chosen me, But I have chosen you. they did not originate the choice: He did.

God has chosen everyone… He is not willing that any should perish… it’s just that some people don’t always want to be chosen… They don’t always choose His path… and even the ones who do stray from the path and have the option of staying on the wrong one or not…

“i have chosen you before the foundation of the world” means, in my opinion, that God made a way for everyone to be saved, anyone and everyone… no matter their genetics or their circumstances or whatever… before that person was born …

whether a person actually chooses God’s way, eternally… is another story…

He has chosen a special pathway for each individual, with his/her unique talents and contributions… to do the work of the kingdom…

 

[distracted]

Again - you

This is the tragedy of Protestantism. One confused, differing, contradictory doctrine after another based on a man’s opinion instead of God’s way.

since you are Elvisman, i’ll ask you:

did Elvis ever convert to Catholicism or was he ever thinking about it?? just wonderign because some of his songs were Catholic sounding …

 

[elvisman]

since you are Elvisman, i’ll ask you:

did Elvis ever convert to Catholicism or was he ever thinking about it?? just wonderign because some of his songs were Catholic sounding …

As far as I know - I don’t think so.
Elvis was a man who truly loved Jesus. Unfortunately - maybe because of his drug use - he embarked on a search for the “truth” that led him to all sorts of weird places like, transcendental meditation and Eastern pagan religions.

 

[distracted]

Christ.

but how did you find him?

 

[distracted]

**As far as I know - I don’t **think so.
**Elvis was a man who truly **loved Jesus. Unfortunately - maybe because of his drug use - he embarked on a search for the “truth” that led him to all sorts of weird places like, transcendental meditation and Eastern pagan religions.

thanks… have you read his biography?

 

[distracted]

Jesus never leaving me or forsaking me, The Holy Spirit and his word.

JESUS

yeah, for sure… people can never be trusted to love us forever… and even if they could be, they could never love us like Jesus…

Have you ever been in the Real Presence…?

meaning: in the Church… (I also feel his real Presence when i read His words… and pray the rosary…)

 

[allischalmers]

i can relate… it seems that non-Catholics try to… well, ignore their sins… because they believe their sins are covered by the Cross… and “it is finished” meaning they don’t have to do much of anything… .No expiation, etc… They’re in for a big surprise when they find themselves in Purgatory having to get cleansed of all that… stuff that they “brush under the carpet”… I heard that Protestants spend more time in Purgatory than Catholics… have no problme believing that… I just hope they make it there… i say this in light of that sciprutre about “storing up wrath for the day of wrath”. and then there’s the one “God’s spirit will not alwys strive with man.” I do think, though, that if one is filled with the HS, one will not stray too far… usually…

I did read that story about (I think it was) the Green River killer who was a born-again Crhistian before he went on the killing spree… So… just goes to show you… you have to be always vigilant and can not take sin lightly…

Protestant do not go to purgatory. Why go to someplace you do not believe exist

 

[ralphinal]

Protestant do not go to purgatory. Why go to someplace you do not believe exist

It is not up to you. That is like saying that atheists will not go to hell.

Purgatory for many protestants will be the time it takes for them to accept that we are correct

 

[elvisman]

thanks… have you read his biography?

I’ve read several.
Interesting stuff!

 

[allischalmers]

Again - you are confusing God’s choosing you with your ability to refuse his grace and turn away.

The Scriptures are filled with passages (that I have already provided you with) that refute guaranteed eternal security.
(Matthew 24.10-13, John 15.10, 1 Timothy 4 1, Romans 11:21, Galatians 6:7-8, Philippians 3:11-14, 1 Timothy 1:18-19, Hebrews 6:4-62, Peter 2:20, 2 Peter 3:16, Revelation 3:5)
You must read the Scriptures in CONTEXT to come to the correct conclusion.

This is the tragedy of Protestantism. One confused, differing, contradictory doctrine after another based on a man’s opinion instead of God’s way.

Elvisman
You have thrown a lot of scripture at me none of which I do not think that you understand. Take Matthew 24: 11-13 as an example, You can not understand these three verses without those verses that come before it. Jesus is talking about the tribulation period, a time were the Bible say that the Holy Spirit will be withdrawing his presence from the earth.
You are so spiritually immature that you can not see the forest from the trees, OSAS runs throught the Bible like a fine spin golden thread woven thought a great and beauitful tapestry.

 

[Graubo3]

since you are Elvisman, i’ll ask you:

did Elvis ever convert to Catholicism or was he ever thinking about it?? just wonderign because some of his songs were Catholic sounding …

distracted,

He sings the ‘Hail Mary’ beautifully and also a song thanking the BVM for the rosary. Pretty Catholic sounding. Have a nice weekend.

Peace, Graubo

 

[elvisman]

Elvisman
You have thrown a lot of scripture at me none of which I do not think that you understand. Take Matthew 24: 11-13 as an example, You can not understand these three verses without those verses that come before it. Jesus is talking about the tribulation period, a time were the Bible say that the Holy Spirit will be withdrawing his presence from the earth.
You are so spiritually immature that you can not see the forest from the trees, OSAS runs throught the Bible like a fine spin golden thread woven thought a great and beauitful tapestry.

Regardless of what period or era Jesus is talking about - he still says that those who endure to the end will be saved. He doesn’t say they ARE saved.
OSAS is rejected by scripture. When it is alluded to - it is only done so as hyperbole.

Calling me spiritually immature is simply an ad hominem attack because you can’t come up with as many reasons and verses for supporting OSAS than I can for proving it wrong.

 

[allischalmers]

Regardless of what period or era Jesus is talking about - he still says that those who endure to the end will be saved. He doesn’t say they ARE saved.
OSAS is rejected by scripture. When it is alluded to - it is only done so as hyperbole.

Calling me spiritually immature is simply an ad hominem attack because you can’t come up with as many reasons and verses for supporting OSAS than I can for proving it wrong.

The whole of scripture proves OSAS. It’s no about proving OSAS to be true it’s all about trusting God to keep his promises. Romans 8: 28 All things work together for them that love God. Thats a promise from God. Only a born again person can truely love God

 

[allischalmers]

It is not up to you. That is like saying that atheists will not go to hell.

Purgatory for many protestants will be the time it takes for them to accept that we are correct

Purgatory for catholics will be the time it take for them to realize they have been wrong

 

[ralphinal]

Purgatory for catholics will be the time it take for them to realize they have been wrong

I agree. once they see that they should have followeed the Church faithfully

 

[elvisman]

The whole of scripture proves OSAS. It’s no about proving OSAS to be true it’s all about trusting God to keep his promises. Romans 8: 28 All things work together for them that love God. Thats a promise from God. Only a born again person can truely love God

If the whole of scripture proves OSAS - disprove the several passages I gave you because I have about a dozen more.

As for a born again person loving God - you’re absolutely right. I was born again at baptism (John 3:5, Colossians 2:11-12, 1 Peter 3:20-21)

Your problem is that you equate being born again with being saved. **
It ain’t the same thing: **
Matt. 7:21, Philipians 2:12, 1 Cor. 4:3-4, Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15, 1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15

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Sanctification is a process - NOTa slam-dunk.