What gives us the right to interfere with secular laws?

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The Catholic Church is always 500 years behind the times so most of the
times they will be incorrect…I think it was in 1990 that The Pope decided
that the Planets revolved around the sun. Before that Catholic Teachings was that the Earth was the center of the universe
Galileo was imprisonned for stating simple scientific facts…so the Church is not exactly a truth seeker.
This is the typical anti-Catholic, Reformation propaganda about the Galileo incident, which is, strangely enough, the only one ever trotted out to “prove” the Church is anti-science. It amounts to taking one data point and extrapolating a whole universe, which itself is not a very scientific approach to proving anything. Apparently the facts in those days weren’t so simple because Galileo never proved his theory.

You are taking this propaganda even further by saying that the Church is not a seeker of truth in general and that because of a scientific dispute, the Church is 500 years behind in the thinking of such things as the nature of man. What a leap!

To borrow from Feser: The world of the anti-Catholic is Manichean: either you are intelligent, well-informed, and honest, and therefore question all authority and received opinion; or you accept what popular opinion or an authority says and therefore must be stupid, dishonest, and ignorant. There is no third option.

Quote: The standard Enlightenment narrative has had a powerful influence on the way modern people understand the relationship between authority, tradition, and common sense on the one hand, and science and rationality on the other. We tend reflexively to assume that the popular or received wisdom, especially if associated with some “official” source or long-standing institution, is always ripe for challenge, and also that if some independent thinker or writer takes an unconventional position, however extreme or counter-intuitive, then there simply must be something right in it, or least worth listening to. “Innovator” and “iconoclast” are among our favorite terms of approbation, and “questioning authority” and “thinking outside the box” are applauded even by many self-described conservatives. By contrast, “unoriginal” and “conventional” are treated as if they were synonyms for “unintelligent” and “unthinking.”

The picture of science that has gone along with this tends to portray it as in the business of overthrowing long-standing opinions and common sense in general. We used to think the earth was at the center of the solar system, but Copernicus showed that the sun is; etc. The history of science, as popularly understood, is thus a story of daring individuals constantly challenging current orthodoxies and authorities, and constantly being proved right.

… the modern tendency toward hyper-skepticism seems largely to be the result of a massive over-generalization from a mere handful of cases where common sense turned out to be mistaken. A philosopher, Michael Levin, has given it a name: the “skim milk” fallacy, the fallacy of assuming, in the words of Gilbert and Sullivan, that “things are seldom what they seem, skim milk masquerades as cream,” so that common sense can in general be presumed to be mistaken. To be sure, where phenomena remote from everyday human experience are concerned – the large-scale structure of space/time, the microscopic realm of molecules, atoms, and so forth – it is perhaps not surprising that human beings should for long periods of time have gotten things wrong. But where everyday matters are concerned – where opinions touch on our basic understanding of human nature and the facts about ordinary social interaction – it is very likely that they would not, in general, get things wrong. Biological and cultural evolution would ensure that serious mistakes concerning such matters would before too long be weeded out. The detailed reasons for this are complex, but when spelled out they provide the basis for a general defense of tradition and common sense of the sort associated with thinkers like Burke and Hayek.

… it is really just not possible to treat authority, tradition, and common sense as if they were in general and in principle likely to be wrong. For in forming our beliefs we must always start somewhere, and have nowhere else to start except the general picture of the world we have inherited from our parents, society, and people who due to special experience or study have more knowledge of a subject matter than we do.

… it is simply a necessary feature of the human condition that our starting point in coming to know about the world must always be what we have inherited from some authority or other – parents, Church, scholars, government, or whomever. Such authorities might not always have the last word, but they cannot fail to have the first word. And to reject the mindless view that authority as such is always to be questioned is not to embrace the equally mindless view that authority is always to be trusted. It is rather just to take the sensible middle ground position that authority has an unavoidable and necessary place in our lives (intellectual and otherwise) even if it is something fallible that we often need to be cautious about.

At some level, everyone knows this, even if some people pretend to think otherwise. The secularist who chides religious believers for having faith in what the Church teaches will also tell them, in the very next breath and with no sense of irony, to shut up and trust the experts where scientific matters are concerned. That there are philosophers and theologians who can present powerful and sophisticated justifications of religious belief is taken to be no defense of the average believer – he ought to “think for himself,” says the secularist.

Unquote.
 
I believe this whole discussion will come to an end when people of faith in the USA, all faiths, stop compartamentalizing their lives and start to vote as men and women of faith. When the Church teaches religious freedom, this is the very point that she’s addressing. Every human being has a moral duty and right to express his faith, even when he votes.

Catholics who say that we have no right to impose this or that on non-Catholics are violating the teachings on religious freedom, not acting according to those teachings. The teaching is clear. If you’re a Catholic, you have the right to vote as a Catholic and the Church has the right to tell you what is right and wrong about different political positions. The morality of the law and the morality of projects espoused by lawmakers is not a political question. It’s a theological question. The role of the faith is to inform reason. This way, when a person of faith goes to vote, his choices are informed by his faith.

Countries and governments don’t have to subscribe to any faith. But individuals have to be true to their faith, even individuals in politics. Therefore, a Muslim, Catholic, Jewish and Protestant politician has to be faithful to whatever truths he knows. For example, many of these Catholic politicians who vote against government regulation of abortion are separating faith from work. God is not allowed to go to work with them. There is a mindset that says, “I don’t think this is a good thing. But I don’t want to be the one who interferes in people’s choices.”

You’re not being asked to interfere in people’s choices. You’re being asked to vote for the good thing and against the bad thing. After that, if people choose the bad thing, they have to live with the outcome. We can say this to our children, but not to our fellow citizens? What’s that? 🤷

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
… There is a mindset that says, “I don’t think this is a good thing. But I don’t want to be the one who interferes in people’s choices.”
This is essentially the response I got from the Catholic grandmother I mentioned earlier. She “didn’t want to tell others what to do or force my beliefs on them.” This Pollyannaish outlook fails to recognize several political facts of life:1] Someone has to be in charge and tell everyone what they can and can’t do;

2] Other voters are going to the polls to vote their preferences, and in the end, tell her what to do;

3] The whole idea of voting is to decide whose agenda will be forced on society;

4] Someone is going to prevail in the election and proceed to tell everyone what they can and can’t do.
 
I’m still beside myself that this question is even entertained by society, especially Catholics. Didn’t they learn anything in civics? It is as though Catholics are 3/5ths of a person, and the missing 2/5ths had the right to vote.

The answer to the OP question is THE CONSTITUTION gives us the right to “interfere” with secular laws. It’s actually two rights that come to mind off hand: the right to vote and the right of redress of grievances.

Sheesh!!!
 
I’m still beside myself that this question is even entertained by society, especially Catholics. Didn’t they learn anything in civics? It is as though Catholics are 3/5ths of a person, and the missing 2/5ths had the right to vote.

The answer to the OP question is THE CONSTITUTION gives us the right to “interfere” with secular laws. It’s actually two rights that come to mind off hand: the right to vote and the right of redress of grievances.

Sheesh!!!
Right along with the Constitution is the the Church’s teaching on religious freedom. No society has the right to interfere with the faith of its people. That is not the goal that God gave to government. Therefore, we have a constitutional right and a moral right to express our faith at the polls, as do people of other faiths. From there we wait for the outcome of the ballot and then decide what to do. If the outcome is contrary to the law of God, we use every legal means we can to reverse it. We may never take away anyone’s right to express their faith. But we may never abdicate our right to do so either.

If you look at something like abortion, there is no religion in the world that says that someone should have an abortion. What some religions say is that it’s not wrong. Therefore, banning it is not a violation of their right to express their faith. The same goes for same-sex marriage. There is no religion that says that people of the same sex must marry. What some say is that it’s not wrong. To ban same-sex marriage is not interference with an act of faith.

On the other hand, you have this goofy proposal that they want to put on the ballot in San Francisco banning circumcision. THAT is interfering with one’s right to practice their faith, because Islam and Judaism demand this of their adherents. Such a law would interfere with a group’s right to practice its faith.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
… But we may never abdicate our right to do so either.
That’s my main complaint – that the propaganda has convinced a significant number of Catholics that their voting according to their faith is somehow Congress establishing a religion. I am convinced that it is fueled by sweeping slogans such as “don’t mix religion with politics”, as though it is carved in stone somewhere.

"‘The wall of separation’ is a metaphor based on bad history, a metaphor which has proved useless as a guide to judging. It should be frankly and explicitly abandoned.” – Justice William Rehnquist
 
That’s my main complaint – that the propaganda has convinced a significant number of Catholics that their voting according to their faith is somehow Congress establishing a religion. I am convinced that it is fueled by sweeping slogans such as “don’t mix religion with politics”, as though it is carved in stone somewhere.

"‘The wall of separation’ is a metaphor based on bad history, a metaphor which has proved useless as a guide to judging. It should be frankly and explicitly abandoned.” – Justice William Rehnquist
I’d like to piggy-back on what you’ve eloquently said by adding that if one reads the writings of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson, they both agreed that religion and politics could never be separated. What could be done and should be done was to avoid what the European countries had, sate religions. Their fear was that people were hurt in the name of state religions. This was not an unfounded fear. We see it in English and Spanish history. Today, we see it in the Middle East. When you make it a crime to be Catholic, Jewish, Protestant, Muslim or whatever, you have stepped over a line that you may not cross. This was never the mind of Israel in the OT, nor that of the Apostles liviing in the Roman Empire or the Church. This was a convenience of political leaders, some of them were members of the clergy, but their execution of religion went beyond what the Church expected.

The Church expected and still expects that Catholics will act and think as Catholics at all times, including when voting. This is why many men and women have been martyred, not only Catholics, but Muslims and Jews as well. They refused to abdicate their faith in the publilc square for the sake of public opinion.

The martyrs who died under the Romans, the Nazis, the Communists and other totalitarian rulers did not die because they wanted to impose their religion on the government. They died because they refused to abdicate their beliefs to satisfy the public.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
…The Church expected and still expects that Catholics will act and think as Catholics at all times, including when voting. …
The popular media would have it otherwise: “I’m a Catholic but not at work.” – Sam Waterston’s character, District Attorney Jack McCoy in the TV series Law and Order. Such pronouncements, made to sound noble, go a long way.

You might find this interesting. catholicleague.org/research/dreisbach.htm
 
Perhaps you don’t know what Christianity is. There are 73 different documents written across 1800 or so years that describe G-d and mans relationship. These books were written by men who lived in different places and different times. Some of these documents, books actually, have dozens of prophecies that a Messiah would come and have certain qualities. For example, being born in a certain place, doing certain things, being of a certain lineage, dying a certain way, be betrayed for a certain amount of money, have his clothes clothes gambled for,etc. In the later books these prophecies are fulfilled. Jesus was born in the right place, did the right things, was descended from the right family, he was betrayed for the correct amount, and so on. Mathematician Peter Stoner demonstrated it in the book Science Speaks. Which you can google a .pdf of. Stoners methodology shows that Christianity is verifiable by a mathematical analysis. This is the same thing that the Apostles knew intuitively when they realized that Christ was fulfilling the Messianic prophecies from a millennium before their own time. This is why they lived torturous lives and died torturous deaths, when a mere recantation of what they had witnessed would have spared them. Christianity exists because of these fulfilled Messianic Prophecies. The martyrs all died for this reason. they knew it was an undeniable truth. Imagine the courage it took to allow themselves to be burned or beaten to death, to be eaten by lions as people cheered. Because you knew the absolute truth of reality, you had witnessed G-d first hand. No, Christianity is the only faith which can really claim to be true. I think there is great wisdom comes from wei wu wei, but no other religion or philosophy can claim to be mathematically verifiable the way Christianity is.

No, no, no. When someone says “(insert your religion here) is the only/best faith,” I just get frustrated. As the poster who this comment was aimed at said, all religions claim that! All religions have holy books and prophets and miracles which the adherents just “know 100 percent” are true. Can you see our dilemma here?

And christianity is not verifiable by mathematics! That’s nonsense. I’m assuming the professor who said it was provable is referring to all the prophecies supposedly fulfilled. The old testament prophecies aren’t proof. These prophecies weren’t put into a time capsule and buried until after the NT was written. All the NT authors were fully aware of what had come before them and most likely tailored and tweaked the “facts” to fit the OT.
 
Perhaps you don’t know what Christianity is. There are 73 different documents written across 1800 or so years that describe G-d and mans relationship. These books were written by men who lived in different places and different times. Some of these documents, books actually, have dozens of prophecies that a Messiah would come and have certain qualities. For example, being born in a certain place, doing certain things, being of a certain lineage, dying a certain way, be betrayed for a certain amount of money, have his clothes clothes gambled for,etc. In the later books these prophecies are fulfilled. Jesus was born in the right place, did the right things, was descended from the right family, he was betrayed for the correct amount, and so on. Mathematician Peter Stoner demonstrated it in the book Science Speaks. Which you can google a .pdf of. Stoners methodology shows that Christianity is verifiable by a mathematical analysis. This is the same thing that the Apostles knew intuitively when they realized that Christ was fulfilling the Messianic prophecies from a millennium before their own time. This is why they lived torturous lives and died torturous deaths, when a mere recantation of what they had witnessed would have spared them. Christianity exists because of these fulfilled Messianic Prophecies. The martyrs all died for this reason. they knew it was an undeniable truth. Imagine the courage it took to allow themselves to be burned or beaten to death, to be eaten by lions as people cheered. Because you knew the absolute truth of reality, you had witnessed G-d first hand. No, Christianity is the only faith which can really claim to be true. I think there is great wisdom comes from wei wu wei, but no other religion or philosophy can claim to be mathematically verifiable the way Christianity is

No, no, no. When someone says “(insert your religion here) is the only/best faith,” I just get frustrated. As the poster who this comment was aimed at said, all religions claim that! All religions have holy books and prophets and miracles which the adherents just “know 100 percent” are true. Can you see our dilemma here?

And christianity is not verifiable by mathematics! That’s nonsense. I’m assuming the professor who said it was provable is referring to all the prophecies supposedly fulfilled. The old testament prophecies aren’t proof. These prophecies weren’t put into a time capsule and buried until after the NT was written. All the NT authors were fully aware of what had come before them and most likely tailored and tweaked the “facts” to fit the OT.
The Synoptic Gospels prove this hypothesis very unlikely. What makes them very credible are the discrepancies between them. It’s like three people standing on three corners watching the same car accident. Each is going to report it from his perspective. There does not seem to be any reason to believe that the authors of the Synoptic Gospels were trying to tweak the prophecies or the facts. If that were the case, they should have sat down and agreed on what to say and how to say it. The truth is that they have events out of sequence. They have different names in the same scenario. They have the same scenario in different places, for example one says the Beatitude took place on a mountain and the other says on a plain.

One speaks about the incarnation and the other simply gives a genealogy. The two genealogies in the synoptic gospels are different. Careful examination reveals that one is the genealogy through the line of Joseph and the other through the line of Mary.

John’s Gospel is completely different from the synoptic. In fact, it was not written as one book, but as three books that are bound together, because they tell one story. But his focus in on the identity of the Messiah and the synoptic focus is on the teachings of the Messiah.

The letters in the NT came before the Gospels, but they assume that the reader knows the story of Jesus Christ, so they go directly into disciplines and theology. There is not much pre-planning there either. They seem very spontaneous and written on the run. The only one that seems to be composed very carefully is the Letter to the Hebrews. The others have all kinds of grammatical errors and syntax errors.

If this was all carefully orchestrated, how is it that there is so much diversity in these NT writings? Yet, they fit together like a puzzle.

You’re also making an assumption that the authors of the NT were familiar with the OT prophesies. There is a problem with that. They don’t all make reference to the same prophesies and not all of the Evangelists were from Judea. The writers of Mark seem to be several men apparently Jew and Greek. The author of Luke seems to be two men and apparently both Greek Jews. That would place distance between them and the temple where the prophecies were kept in the scrolls. They seem to learn some of the prophecies form Jesus himself he quotes them.

This hypothesis has been tried by those who do Christology and found lacking. It was discarded by non other than Albert Schweitzer in his book Quest for the Historical Jesus/u}. He tried to prove this hypothesis and in the end states that he has proven to himself that his hypothesis cannot be proven. Dermot Lane tried it again in the 1970s and was unsuccessful. Schillebeeckx tried it too and could not do it. Finally, the hypothesis of contrived evangelism was dropped.

You may want to read Pope Benedict’s two books on Jesus of Nazareth. They are very simple to read, but very interesting.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
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