What happened to my Church? What happened to the music?

[Jon_S_1]

Great idea about the way your parish does music! Are you in SoCal or Florida? If you are in SoCal, have you been to the new, albiet old, Cathedral? I cant wait to go to mass there when i visit my daughter in the LA area and are down in Orange County.

I am in California! Yes I am very excited for the new Cathedral. It is open for visiting and tours, but not mass yet. I think the first mass is in 2015 sometime. I WILL be there for that and the altar consecration.

We also have a beautiful basilica in San Juan Capistrano. It’s at the site of a 250 year old mission.

 

[OraLabora]

You can offer suggestions as to how to improve what you believe needs improving as long as you’re open to the suggestions from others.

This.

I would also ask: how many of the people complaining about Church music have actually done something about it? Like founding, or joining a schola?

I joined a schola. Sure we have a huge task ahead of us convincing others to return Chant to the Mass. But we’re doing something about it, one parish at a time. We are based in a medium (by Canadian standards) city of 150,000. From September through June we sing once a month at a different parish, in addition to chanting for Mass and solemn Vespers at the cathedral in Advent, Lent and Easter season (and Lauds on Holy Saturday).

Slowly but surely we are starting to expose the person in the pew to chant. We even have “groupies” that ensure they always show up at the Mass we chant each month

Try it. It’s fun! And not as difficult as you might imagine. There are scholas and resources around N. America.

 

[concerneduser]

Wow…I wasn’t expecting this type of response. And I’ll admit my initial question was a little bit of a ‘rant’ as this newer music is “taking over” my church.

It is said that the music is supposed to bring us closer to God, closer to prayer. The music I grew up with does this for me. Traditional Church Music in Latin music does this for me as well.
Something like ‘Now We Remain’ youtube.com/watch?v=RR6UqcYa_rc

Or this Advent song, ‘Waiting in Silence’ youtube.com/watch?v=b-9s_oG4W9U
Those songs above I have loved for years, and hope they keep in Church.

It is true as some have stated, that Mass does not have to include music, but most Masses do. Is perhaps the Church getting caught up in trying to choose music which is deemed ‘fun’ or ‘entertaining’? It is obvious they are trying to make it more entertaining…for surely these changes would not have started within the ‘Youth Masses’ and now have spilled over to the other Mass times. I do not go to Church to be entertained and most would agree that we shouldn’t. We are there for God, we are there to strengthen our close and personal relationship with God. The Mass, Communion, the ultimate sacrifice, the second covenant, is why we are there…Catholic Mass is different than protestant ‘praise’ services.

So, who’s idea was it to bring in ‘praise band’ style music to a Catholic Mass? Who ‘approved’ it and on what level is this chosen? Was it something approved by the Vatican? Is the sole purpose of this music to bring us closer to God, or is it to entertain? (The newer ‘praise’ electric guitar and drums literally make me walk towards the exit). Also, Although the music is not “part” of Mass, in the same way that the announcements are not “part” of Mass…It is stated that music is used to give thanks and praise to God and therefore is and can be prayer. And, if the music is not for our entertainment…then prayer IS the purpose of music at Mass. In that sense, Protestants believe that they are “having fun”, “being entertained”, and “giving praise” at the same time with this new style of Christian Rock/ praise music. And so, if someone is to Change the music used During/ Throughout Mass it therefore changes some of how we pray, some of how we connect with the Mass, some of how we connect with God.

Who is to say that the change in music is simply something that changes with time, simply as the weekly announcements at the end of Mass? It isn’t, it’s more than that. Protestants will agree that music is deeper than that and has a more profound meaning than that.

In that sense, when the Church changes the music, they are changing the environment which Mass takes place. The change in music changes the ‘feeling’, the ‘atmosphere’ in which we connect with God through the Mass and Communion…

And because of that, I have lost the atmosphere to which I am able to connect with God at my local childhood Church and wonder “what happened to my Church? What happened to the music?” (hence the name of the title)…

 

[Jon_S_1]

Wow…I wasn’t expecting this type of response. And I’ll admit my initial question was a little bit of a ‘rant’ as this newer music is “taking over” my church.

**It is said that the music is supposed to bring us closer to God, closer to prayer. The music I grew up with does this for me. Traditional Church Music in Latin music does this for me as well. **
Something like ‘Now We Remain’ youtube.com/watch?v=RR6UqcYa_rc

Or this Advent song, ‘Waiting in Silence’ youtube.com/watch?v=b-9s_oG4W9U
Those songs above I have loved for years, and hope they keep in Church.

It is true as some have stated, that Mass does not have to include music, but most Masses do. It perhaps the Church getting caught up in trying to choose music which is deemed ‘fun’ or ‘entertaining’? I do not go to Church to be entertained and most would agree that we shouldn’t. We are there for God, we are there to strengthen our close and personal relationship with God. The Mass, Communion, the ultimate sacrifice, the second covenant, is why we are there…Catholic Mass is different than protestant ‘praise’ services.

So, who’s idea was it to bring in ‘praise band’ style music to a Catholic Mass? Who ‘approved’ it and on what level is this chosen? Was it something approved by the Vatican? Is the sole purpose of this music to bring us closer to God, or is it to entertain? (The newer ‘praise’ electric guitar and drums literally make me walk towards the exit). Also, Although the music is not “part” of Mass, in the same way that the announcements are not “part” of Mass…It is stated that music is used to give thanks and praise to God and therefore is and can be prayer. And, if not for our entertainment…that IS the purpose of music at Mass. In that sense, Protestants believe that they are “having fun”, “being entertained”, and “giving praise” at the same time with this new style of Christian Rock/ praise music. And so, if someone is to Change the music used During/ Throughout Mass it therefore changes some of how we pray, some of how we connect with the Mass, some of how we connect with God.

Who is to say that the change in music is simply something that changes with time, simply as the weekly announcements at the end of Mass? It isn’t, it’s more than that. Protestants will agree that music is deeper than that and has a more profound meaning than that.

In that sense, when the Church changes the music, they are changing the environment which Mass takes place. The change in music changes the ‘feeling’, the ‘atmosphere’ in which we connect with God through the Mass and Communion…

And because of that, I have lost the atmosphere to which I am able to connect with God at my local childhood Church and wonder “what happened to my Church? What happened to the music?” (hence the name of the title)…

Why do you presume that everyone is brought close to God with only the music you like??

Doesn’t it seem a bit self centered, as if the church revolved around your taste?

God can be very authentically worshiped with a praise band. It is about the heart of the participant not the music.

 

[concerneduser]

Why do you presume that everyone is brought close to God with only the music you like??

Doesn’t it seem a bit self centered, as if the church revolved around your taste?

God can be very authentically worshiped with a praise band. It is about the heart of the participant not the music.

“Why do you presume that everyone is brought close to God with only the music you like??”
I don’t. It is not the music “I like”, is is the traditions of the Church I like. And, these traditions are changing, and so the Church “which never changes”, is changing. And I would like to know why it is changing and who approved these changes.

As mentioned before, music is prayer and so when you change the music it changes the way we praying. Yes, some people “like praying” with music to which they do hand motions and hear the drums and electric guitars, etc…but that is not in the tradition of the Catholic Church…that is more of a tradition of Evangelicals.

“*Doesn’t it seem a bit self centered, as if the church revolved around your taste? *”

And I know the church doesn’t revolve around my ‘taste’ in music…it revolves around the taste of the current music minister who, apparently believes that christian rock is the taste of everyone (being that 3 of 4 Masses are now consumed with it). It happens to be my ‘taste’ is for the traditions of the Church.

**I also happen to have ‘taste’ for bluegrass Christian music, but I would *never *ask the music minister to bring that into a Catholic Mass…I don’t find it appropriate to try and change the traditions of the Church to my ‘taste’ in music.

 

[Jon_S_1]

“Why do you presume that everyone is brought close to God with only the music you like??”
I don’t. It is not the music “I like”, is is the traditions of the Church I like. And, these traditions are changing, and so the Church “which never changes”, is changing. And I would like to know why it is changing and who approved these changes.

As mentioned before, music is prayer and so when you change the music it changes the way we praying. Yes, some people “like praying” with music to which they do hand motions and hear the drums and electric guitars, etc…but that is not in the tradition of the Catholic Church…that is more of a tradition of Evangelicals.

“*Doesn’t it seem a bit self centered, as if the church revolved around your taste? *”

And I know the church doesn’t revolve around my ‘taste’ in music…it revolves around the taste of the current music minister who, apparently believes that christian rock is the taste of everyone (being that 3 of 4 Masses are now consumed with it). It happens to be my ‘taste’ is for the traditions of the Church.

**I also happen to have ‘taste’ for bluegrass Christian music, but I would *never *ask the music minister to bring that into a Catholic Mass…I don’t find it appropriate to try and change the traditions of the Church to my ‘taste’ in music.

It seems odd though that you talk about songs that are a few hundred years old tops in a 2000 year old church as if the apostles themselves sang them!

There is nothing wrong with changing music from time to time. Music style is neither dogma nor doctrine, not really even discipline , but if anything it’s the third which changes as needed.

 

[OraLabora]

It seems odd though that you talk about songs that are a few hundred years old tops in a 2000 year old church as if the apostles themselves sang them!

There is nothing wrong with changing music from time to time. Music style is neither dogma nor doctrine, not really even discipline , but if anything it’s the third which changes as needed.

Indeed. Gregorian chant, as we now know it, dates only from the late 19th century and was codified in its present form by the monks of Solesmes, and endorsed by Pius X.

Many of the chants of course date from the Carolingian and earlier eras. However the way they were written (in neumes, without a staff) back then means that the way we sing Gregorian chant today, is only how we imagine Gregorian chant sounded 1000 years ago. Through the middle ages, Church music had become thoroughly adulterated with embellishments and what was, at the time, “popular” styles of music. Divine Office hymns were also messed up by pope Urban VIII. Sounds familiar doesn’t it? Even “Gregorian” chant at some point overtook Ambrosian (which still exists in the Archiocese of Milan), Beneventan (dead), Mozarabic (dead except in Toledo, Spain), Old Roman (dead), Sarum (dead) and Gallican (dead) chant to name a few though some musicologists still study them and attempt to perform them. Church music has always been evolutionary. One assumes if Mozarabic or Sarum chant is one’s “thing”, one must be sorely disappointed. At one point, if the same folks that post here were around then, Gregorian chant would surely have been labeled “modernist”!

One could argue that “traditional” Gregorian chant has only been around for about 106 years when Pius X promulgated the Vatican Edition of the Roman Gradual. Of course that’s not entirely true, as it was an attempt at a restoration of Gregorian chant. But it still is an approximate restoration as we have now way of knowing what 10th century chant really sounded like. The fact remains that Gregorian chant as we now know it, is “officially” only 106 years old. Moreover the interpretation of chant is evolving continually, especially for the Divine Office. I have two recent antiphonaries, with the music from the same source (Solesmes), dated 2008 and 2010, where at least one antiphon melody has changed.

 

[concerneduser]

So it appears the music is ever-changing, and therefore so is the way we pray through music, and therefore so is the environment which we receive communion and attend Mass in. And so even if I like what was my church environment to receive communion, to pray, to gain my deep relationship with God…What? I have to change because some music ministry thinks we should follow what is popular among Protestants?

And so today in the 21st century we can see that Christian / Praise Rock (founded within Evangelical/ Non-denominational Protestant Churches) is considered the ‘mainstream’ for not only the “youth mass” but all services as well (as happening in my local church).

But my questions persist…Why and who implements these changes…Is it really only at the local music minister level? Who says it is now OK in Mass to have drums and electric guitars and hold hands and have music so loud it hurts your ears?. Certainly I don’t see Benedict or current Pope Francis making these decisions? Certainly I don’t see them in prostrate, or in deep prayer at Mass doing the hand motions to “our god is an awesome God”. I simply don’t believe that the loud Christian Rock music CAN bring us closer to God in that Very Deep, Personal level which we so very rarely feel, but should be on- just before- or while receiving- Jesus himself, Eucharist.

I’m sorry but I cannot see him coming off that crucifix and “rocking” next to the guy on the guitar standing next to the alter.

So please if there is anyone out there who CAN answer those questions, (or see my post three or so above asking these and more questions), I’m still looking for an answer other than “music changes over time get over it”…

With some of the responses I almost wonder why I bothered posting this within the ‘Traditional Catholicism’ forum…

 

[Sarabande]

So it appears the music is ever-changing, and therefore so is the way we pray through music, and therefore so is the environment which we receive communion and attend Mass in. And so even if I like what was my church environment to receive communion, to pray, to gain my deep relationship with God…What? I have to change because some music ministry thinks we should follow what is popular among Protestants?

And so today in the 21st century we can see that Christian / Praise Rock (founded within Evangelical/ Non-denominational Protestant Churches) is considered the ‘mainstream’ for not only the “youth mass” but all services as well (as happening in my local church).

But my questions persist…Why and who implements these changes…Is it really only at the local music minister level? Who says it is now OK in Mass to have drums and electric guitars and hold hands and have music so loud it hurts your ears?. Certainly I don’t see Benedict or current Pope Francis making these decisions? Certainly I don’t see them in prostrate, or in deep prayer at Mass doing the hand motions to “our god is an awesome God”. I simply don’t believe that the loud Christian Rock music CAN bring us closer to God in that Very Deep, Personal level which we so very rarely feel, but should be on- just before- or while receiving- Jesus himself, Eucharist.

I’m sorry but I cannot see him coming off that crucifix and “rocking” next to the guy on the guitar standing next to the alter.

So please if there is anyone out there who CAN answer those questions, (or see my post three or so above asking these and more questions), I’m still looking for an answer other than “music changes over time get over it”…

With some of the responses I almost wonder why I bothered posting this within the ‘Traditional Catholicism’ forum…

Concerndeduser - I understand your frustration. When I was in my teens and 20s, I was constantly frustrated by all of it. Everything just seemed so convoluted with no focused. I will say that (I’m now in my 30s) things seemed to be much more focused at least where I am than it was when was growing up and in my 20s.

What it seems to be at this point in time is that the decisions are left to the discretion of the pastors or whomever they place in charge at the parishes. Now, that doesn’t mean that dioceses will put out lists of what every parish should be doing. In my diocese they do and set the music at the cathedral as a model to go by. BUT, many parishes don’t follow it and the diocese doesn’t really hold the parishes to the standard even if they set the standard. What tends to happen is what I and other music ministers who “work in the trenches” have mentioned… and there are many other reasons which haven’t been mentioned.

From my own reading of sacred music history in the Church, what seemed to happen in the past for centuries was that for a time the “local” people would bring in music that might actually have been considered “popular” music. This was how polyphony was brought into the liturgy. At first the style that the polyphonic music was performed in was considered ill-suited for liturgy. When you listen or perform secular polyphonic music and then later sacred polyphonic music, there is a difference in the way you perform it so that you can recognize what is “sacred” music and what was the pop music of the time. The Church seems to have had different “crack downs” on
the music after a period of allowances. It then makes the composers reign everything in and create music more appropriate for the liturgy, but still employing the “new” style of the time period. The repertoire we are hearing today from the past masters of music is the creme de la creme of sacred music and has proved itself by standing the test of time. But we have to remember that there was A LOT of junk or at least middling work written during all of those periods as well, which we do not hear today because it has been weeded out.

We have had a 40+ year period of this kind of “allowance”. We have been hearing everything. Some have eventually been weeded out and you no longer hear. Some will probably become part of the standard repertory. Some have yet to be struck from the current Catholic repertoire. This Praise and Worship music is the “newest” form. Will the Church do a crackdown like it has in the past? Only time will tell. She might require the people who write this music to write more in line within what is appropriate for liturgy (like it has done in the past) and prove that this style of music can be rendered for sacred use in the same way as other styles have had to subdue or slightly change the performance of it.

I think an important word, which I’ve read in various articles about sacred music is “organic”. There has to be an organic growth from the music, starting at chant and then moving its way through the centuries with the various styles that grew from it. That is why so much music was required to be re-worked so that it had a natural and logical flow and evolution from the line of acceptable music. I have started to see some of that happening, depending on the parish, but it isn’t happening quickly.

I’m sorry I can’t answer your question in entirety, but I am sure there are other more learned and knowledgeable individuals on this subject who will be able to do that.

 

[Jon_S_1]

So it appears the music is ever-changing, and therefore so is the way we pray through music, and therefore so is the environment which we receive communion and attend Mass in. And so even if I like what was my church environment to receive communion, to pray, to gain my deep relationship with God…What? I have to change because some music ministry thinks we should follow what is popular among Protestants?

And so today in the 21st century we can see that Christian / Praise Rock (founded within Evangelical/ Non-denominational Protestant Churches) is considered the ‘mainstream’ for not only the “youth mass” but all services as well (as happening in my local church).

But my questions persist…Why and who implements these changes…Is it really only at the local music minister level? Who says it is now OK in Mass to have drums and electric guitars and hold hands and have music so loud it hurts your ears?. Certainly I don’t see Benedict or current Pope Francis making these decisions? Certainly I don’t see them in prostrate, or in deep prayer at Mass doing the hand motions to “our god is an awesome God”. I simply don’t believe that the loud Christian Rock music CAN bring us closer to God in that Very Deep, Personal level which we so very rarely feel, but should be on- just before- or while receiving- Jesus himself, Eucharist.

I’m sorry but I cannot see him coming off that crucifix and “rocking” next to the guy on the guitar standing next to the alter.

So please if there is anyone out there who CAN answer those questions, (or see my post three or so above asking these and more questions), I’m still looking for an answer other than “music changes over time get over it”…

With some of the responses I almost wonder why I bothered posting this within the ‘Traditional Catholicism’ forum…

I believe the Vatican would intervene if there is something happening that is outside the rubrics or inappropriate. They don’t so much come out and say, “sing only this type of music.”

I know for a while it was becoming popular for some parishes to lyricize and embellish the Agnus Dei. The Vatican (or USCCB) came out and strictly prohibited that saying that it had to be said/sung without embellishment.

Sometimes I wonder if people want to keep Christ on the cross or in the grave. It’s important to remember his sacrifice and that’s a big part of mass, but a bigger part is that he is alive and I am sure he is willing to dance and shout for joy with us.

Psalm 150:1-6

Praise the Lord! Praise God in his sanctuary; praise him in his mighty heavens! Praise him for his mighty deeds; praise him according to his excellent greatness! Praise him with trumpet sound; praise him with lute and harp! Praise him with tambourine and dance; praise him with strings and pipe! Praise him with sounding cymbals; praise him with loud clashing cymbals!

 

[27lw]

But my questions persist…Why and who implements these changes…Is it really only at the local music minister level? Who says it is now OK in Mass to have drums and electric guitars and hold hands and have music so loud it hurts your ears?. Certainly I don’t see Benedict or current Pope Francis making these decisions? Certainly I don’t see them in prostrate, or in deep prayer at Mass doing the hand motions to “our god is an awesome God”. I simply don’t believe that the loud Christian Rock music CAN bring us closer to God in that Very Deep, Personal level which we so very rarely feel, but should be on- just before- or while receiving- Jesus himself, Eucharist.

I’m sorry but I cannot see him coming off that crucifix and “rocking” next to the guy on the guitar standing next to the alter.

So please if there is anyone out there who CAN answer those questions, (or see my post three or so above asking these and more questions), I’m still looking for an answer other than “music changes over time get over it”…

With some of the responses I almost wonder why I bothered posting this within the ‘Traditional Catholicism’ forum…

Yes, I totally agree and sympathize with you, that rock/pop music is NOT sacred church music. It’s very difficult to argue this point with people who love rock / pop at church.

1. I think that priests feel that they are in some secret competition with neighboring
   parishes to get the most “people in the pews” and donations coming in. I think that priests are afraid that if they are “too traditional” people will quit their church, and go to St. Our Lady of Rockin-Out down the highway.
2. Bishops allow the rock / pop, heaven knows why. I think they might be misguided in thinking people will leave over this.
3. Music directors serve at the whim of the priest. Priests control this, or some “liturgy committee” to whom the priest has given control of the liturgy (heaven knows why).
4. Priests and bishops should follow the documents of the Church. Most don’t seem to on the subject of music.
5. I would talk to the priest at your parish, and tell him it doesn’t even seem like Mass to you anymore. The bongo drum people will complain bitterly if their music got taken away, so you should too.
6. I think that priests should be afraid that young people will run away because of other “too traditional” trappings of the Church. Maybe we should get a neon-lit anime-style cartoon Jesus, instead of a crucifix. Maybe we should read some Matt Meyer-style pop songs instead of psalms. Because otherwise the young people might leave! (just kidding).

Sorry - - I know am grumpy about this. I am a recent convert, and this is my only real complaint about the church – - and it goes against their own teachings (especially the teachings of Vatican II).

 

[Jon_S_1]

Yes, I totally agree and sympathize with you, that rock/pop music is NOT sacred church music. It’s very difficult to argue this point with people who love rock / pop at church.

1. I think that priests feel that they are in some secret competition with neighboring
   parishes to get the most “people in the pews” and donations coming in. I think that priests are afraid that if they are “too traditional” people will quit their church, and go to St. Our Lady of Rockin-Out down the highway.
2. Bishops allow the rock / pop, heaven knows why. I think they might be misguided in thinking people will leave over this.
3. Music directors serve at the whim of the priest. Priests control this, or some “liturgy committee” to whom the priest has given control of the liturgy (heaven knows why).
4. Priests and bishops should follow the documents of the Church. Most don’t seem to on the subject of music.
5. I would talk to the priest at your parish, and tell him it doesn’t even seem like Mass to you anymore. The bongo drum people will complain bitterly if their music got taken away, so you should too.
6. I think that priests should be afraid that young people will run away because of other “too traditional” trappings of the Church. Maybe we should get a neon-lit anime-style cartoon Jesus, instead of a crucifix. Maybe we should read some Matt Meyer-style pop songs instead of psalms. Because otherwise the young people might leave! (just kidding).

Sorry - - I know am grumpy about this. I am a recent convert, and this is my only real complaint about the church – - and it goes against their own teachings (especially the teachings of Vatican II).

Please

What did you convert from. I came from Protestantism where the churches did compete for people. The best songs, best videos, best sermons, best concession stand (yes for real) best coffee bar, best kids activities etc…

The problem with that model is that it does not last. It fills a void like going to the movies but no one wants to go to the theater every week. So those churches have very high turnover.

The Catholic Church is nothing but refreshing in these regards! It has NONE of these things.

I really don’t like people saying it does. It is not remotely similar.

 

[27lw]

Please

What did you convert from. I came from Protestantism where the churches did compete for people. The best songs, best videos, best sermons, best concession stand (yes for real) best coffee bar, best kids activities etc…

The problem with that model is that it does not last. It fills a void like going to the movies but no one wants to go to the theater every week. So those churches have very high turnover.

The Catholic Church is nothing but refreshing in these regards! It has NONE of these things.

I really don’t like people saying it does. It is not remotely similar.

I said that I think priests feel like they are in a SECRET competition with neighboring parishes. You think American parishioners don’t have a consumer mindset? Keep dreaming - - read that new book “Rebuilt”.
I am a convert from agnosticism - - no preaching contests there.

 

[EMFrost]

So it appears the music is ever-changing, and therefore so is the way we pray through music, and therefore so is the environment which we receive communion and attend Mass in. And so even if I like what was my church environment to receive communion, to pray, to gain my deep relationship with God…What? I have to change because some music ministry thinks we should follow what is popular among Protestants?

And so today in the 21st century we can see that Christian / Praise Rock (founded within Evangelical/ Non-denominational Protestant Churches) is considered the ‘mainstream’ for not only the “youth mass” but all services as well (as happening in my local church).

But my questions persist…Why and who implements these changes…Is it really only at the local music minister level? Who says it is now OK in Mass to have drums and electric guitars and hold hands and have music so loud it hurts your ears?. Certainly I don’t see Benedict or current Pope Francis making these decisions? Certainly I don’t see them in prostrate, or in deep prayer at Mass doing the hand motions to “our god is an awesome God”. I simply don’t believe that the loud Christian Rock music CAN bring us closer to God in that Very Deep, Personal level which we so very rarely feel, but should be on- just before- or while receiving- Jesus himself, Eucharist.

I’m sorry but I cannot see him coming off that crucifix and “rocking” next to the guy on the guitar standing next to the alter.

So please if there is anyone out there who CAN answer those questions, (or see my post three or so above asking these and more questions), I’m still looking for an answer other than “music changes over time get over it”…

With some of the responses I almost wonder why I bothered posting this within the ‘Traditional Catholicism’ forum…

I found this article which better articulates what I dare not try to say myself regarding inappropriate music in mass and what is actually said in Catholic Canon Law.
ewtn.com/library/CANONLAW/WESING.HTM

 

[27lw]

Thanks EMFrost,
That short article sums it up very well!

 

[Jon_S_1]

I said that I think priests feel like they are in a SECRET competition with neighboring parishes. You think American parishioners don’t have a consumer mindset? Keep dreaming - - read that new book “Rebuilt”.
I am a convert from agnosticism - - no preaching contests there.

American parishioners do have a consumer mindset. The nice thing about our church is it is not run by american consumers.

 

[EMFrost]

Your welcome.

Actually I have a correction to make. Canon Law accounts for some of what the article speaks about, but most of it actually has to do with Liturgical Law. I shouldn’t have vaguely called it all Canon Law.

 

[Sarabande]

American parishioners do have a consumer mindset. The nice thing about our church is it is not run by american consumers.

Having worked in numerous churches either as a regular or substitute and getting to know many of staff in those parishes, I can safely say that those who are running the parishes are very well-aware of what is happening in our culture and society in terms of American Consumerism with churches.

In the city where I do much of my work, there can sometimes be four Catholic churches on just a couple of blocks and the priests are trying to do what they can to keep their parishioners from going across the street or next door to the other Catholic church. How they will “compete” is with the music or maybe with how short or long the mass will be. For instance, we have two parishes in very close proximity to each other. I work at both. The parish demographic is such that they appreciate and require professional musicianship so both have professional singers and instrumentalists. They tend to have a more arts-cultured background and so would not go for what you usually hear in suburban parishes. Both parishes do traditional sacred music.

One of the parishes did have a couple of people who wanted to bring in guitars, but that was shot down almost immediately as the demographic there did not want that. One of the parishes has a choir and their masses are a little long as they sing everything. The other parish purposely does not do all of the “bells and whistles” so that it can attract those who would like not have to attend a completely sung mass. It has good musicianship, but it’s more simplified and you are done mass in a little less than an hour. That strategy, along with building up the musicianship of the parish and along with an incredible pastor, has actually helped build that parish up in numbers when at one time, it was looking to be closed. The diocese placed that priest in to help save that particular parish and it has worked. They saw what the “consumer” wanted there and delivered.

I don’t like the idea that the Church has to do that kind of thing, but it happens more than we know many times for practical reasons so that the parish can survive. Of course there are other ways… like better catechizing the flock so this kind of thing doesn’t need to be done.

 

[ProVobis]

American parishioners do have a consumer mindset. The nice thing about our church is it is not run by american consumers.

If it were, there probably would be no obligation to attend Mass at all. Look at what happened to Ascension Thursday, for example. You think the bishops would have transferred it to Sunday had there been overwhelming attendance on the Thursday itself? Just sayin…

 

[Friedlander79]

I actually love this type of music.