What happens if I'm wrong?

[Paris_Blues]

smelton:

Besides the scripture where else would you turn to find truth?

The CATHOLIC CHURCH!!!

 

[Della]

smelton:

Let me try and give you a protestant point of view. Jesus alone is the attonment for our sins. I’d suspect everyone who is Christian would agree. When I came on to this board a very short time ago I read things that were simply ludicrous to me. It sounds like instead of people putting their faith in Christ and his action on the cross and in the tomb, it sounds like many Catholics put their faith in the church. This sounds very dangerous to me. My faith is not based on anything but Jesus Christ and his attoning actions. I believe the bible is infalliable, but my faith is in Christ. I’m an active member of my chuch but my faith is in Christ. When I read a lot of posts on here I see people using the words Catholic Church where I would only use Christ. I know many of you feel I’m probably some poor warped protestant that needs some straighting out. But I come to this board looking for understanding on the thoughts of a Catholic. Don’t you see a danger in not putting all your faith in Christ for your salvation? Maybe I just don’t understand what you really believe, which is a good possibility.

We too put all our faith in Christ for our salvation. What we claim about the Church, and it claims for itself, is that it is the one Body of Christ and his Bride (as I wrote earlier, Protestant are joined to us, although imperfectly, by means of your trinitarian baptism).

Jesus founded the Catholic Church to bring the Gospel to the world, which is why we can say that salvation is found within the Catholic Church. We mean that the whole of the truth of the Gospel subsists within the Church Christ himself founded. See my last post to you about the Bible and what its place is in the Sacred Tradition of the Church (which preceded the Bible and which gave us the Bible).

 

[AndyF]

smelton:

As a protestant I leave open the possibility that I may not understand everything and I actually might have a few things wrong. I often ask myself, “What if I’m wrong?” about my faith. I’ve been visiting this board for a few weeks and I’m baffeled by the fact that anytime someone questions a Catholic Church stance there seem to be individuals who without question believe everthing the Catholic Church believes. I want to pose the question “What if the protestants are wrong?” what does that mean for us protestants. Also “What if the Catholic Church is wrong?” what does that mean for Catholics?

"In order for a Protestant to be saved, he must have a baptism at least by desire, must be ignorant of the fact the Catholic Church is the only true Church, must not be responsible for that ignorance by deliberatley neglecting to enquire when doubts have perhaps come to him about his position,must die with perfect contrition of sins,and have a sincere love of God.

Such good dispositions are an implicit will to be Catholic. Such a man would join the Catholic Church did he realize that that was God’s will. All qualified to enter heaven are Catholic by default.*"

*Radio Replies, Vol I, Ans 546

 

[sententia]

Part of it might be because Christ is the invisible head of the CC- the Pope is the visible head. The Church IS the body of Christ, for us, Church equates w/Christ. He leads it, he keeps the ‘gates of hell from prevail[ing]’ and all that. THe trinity is a mystery, and of the same sort is how the Chrurch can be made of sinners and yet be sinless/perfect.

The ways in which the pope can be infallible are very, very limited. He can sin as much as any man, he goes to confession regularly, etc. If you have never read up on that, it may be worth looking into a thread, or beginning one on it

 

[Scott_Waddell]

No matter how much one slices it, one’s church (in the broader sense of those who taught one about Christ) is always going to be the proximate rule of faith, and the Scriptures and Tradition the remote rules of faith. That is, no one completely ignorant of Christianity picks up and reads a bible and comes away thinking God is a trinity–that is something that must be taught. Of course the question is by what authority do they teach? Now non-Catholics may teach lots of truth, but the fact is they are writing checks against the authoritative Catholic Church’s account. Some are nice enough to say “thanks Catholic Church, but we’ll take it from here”, but this puts one in the impossible dilemma of sorting out which traditions are legit and which are supposed Catholic corruptions. An appeal that bible-alone can sort it out does not work because one is arbitrarily deciding that Bible alone is a legitimate, ecclesial tradition (highly dubious), and that it is an authoritative tradition. (Thus contradicting bible alone). This is simply incoherent.

 

[smelton]

Della:

We too put all our faith in Christ for our salvation. What we claim about the Church, and it claims for itself, is that it is the one Body of Christ and his Bride (as I wrote earlier, Protestant are joined to us, although imperfectly, by means of your trinitarian baptism).

Jesus founded the Catholic Church to bring the Gospel to the world, which is why we can say that salvation is found within the Catholic Church. We mean that the whole of the truth of the Gospel subsists within the Church Christ himself founded. See my last post to you about the Bible and what its place is in the Sacred Tradition of the Church (which preceded the Bible and which gave us the Bible).

This brings up another question in my mind, although it may be off the subject. I’ve heard priest say they are married to the church. That seems like they are claiming diety to me. The church is the bride of Christ, not the priest (correct?). I’m confussed by this statement. I will admit I’m not as well versed in church history as I should be. I had “The restoration movement” in college but I think it was an 8am class, so I probably didn’t pay enough attention. I fully agree that Christ started the church with Peter and that this church dealt with the cannon and all the issues that went along with that. You seem to have some logic in that argument.

 

[Jabronie]

smelton:

So if the Pope comes out and says, “The Catholic Church believes this …” Then does that make it something you can not question? Does the church have the same authority as the Bible? Does the Pope have the same authority? The reason I ask is because just from perusing this site for a while it seems to me, I could be wrong, that the catholic faith teaches those things. I just wonder if Catholics ever wonder, what if its wrong. What is Martin Luther was right? What if the traditions of the church is all bunk? Do you ever question these things?

If the traditions of the Church are bunk, it shouldn’t matter. Catholics still believe in God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. We believe that God forgives our mortal sins in sacramental penance, but in order for that to happen, we MUST be sorry for committing the sins in the first place.

Now if the Church is right, there’s a lot of people out there who might have to answer some difficult questions when they come face to face with the All Mighty someday.

 

[Della]

smelton:

This brings up another question in my mind, although it may be off the subject. I’ve heard priest say they are married to the church. That seems like they are claiming diety to me. The church is the bride of Christ, not the priest (correct?). I’m confussed by this statement.

What our priests mean by being married to the Church is that they, being Christ’s representatives, are like Christ to the people of God. Christ is the Bridegroom and we, the people of God, including priests, bishops and deacons, are the Bride. So, you see we believe in the priesthood of all the people.

But, we also have a ministerial priesthood, established by Christ, who is the High Priest. Really, how could anyone be a High Priest if there are no other priests under his authority? Catholic priests and all our ordained men, are like Christ in that they must be fathers to God’s people and husband them spiritually. They, like Christ himself, are in the order of Melchiesdec, and therefore are priests forever in Christ and for him and God’s people.

I will admit I’m not as well versed in church history as I should be. I had “The restoration movement” in college but I think it was an 8am class, so I probably didn’t pay enough attention. I fully agree that Christ started the church with Peter and that this church dealt with the cannon and all the issues that went along with that. You seem to have some logic in that argument.

Really, all I am telling you is simply what happened. It’s right there in the history books–good ones that is, not revisionist histories made up to order to support agendas.

It is extremely important to understand that Christ founded the Catholic Church. Once that becomes real for you everything else eventually falls into place.

 

[smelton]

Della:

What our priests mean by being married to the Church is that they, being Christ’s representatives, are like Christ to the people of God. Christ is the Bridegroom and we, the people of God, including priests, bishops and deacons, are the Bride. So, you see we believe in the priesthood of all the people.

But, we also have a ministerial priesthood, established by Christ, who is the High Priest. Really, how could anyone be a High Priest if there are no other priests under his authority? Catholic priests and all our ordained men, are like Christ in that they must be fathers to God’s people and husband them spiritually. They, like Christ himself, are in the order of Melchiesdec, and therefore are priests forever in Christ and for him and God’s people.

Really, all I am telling you is simply what happened. It’s right there in the history books–good ones that is, not revisionist histories made up to order to support agendas.

It is extremely important to understand that Christ founded the Catholic Church. Once that becomes real for you everything else eventually falls into place.

I too believe in the priesthood of all believers. I believe in that Chist is the High priest from the order of Melchiesdec (sp?) found in Hebrews. I’m glad that you don’t believe in the diety of priest. I guess I would prefer the priest to use better semantics. It tends to lead one to believe they are claiming to be Christ. Why can’t Christ be his own representitive to his people? That is one of my hang ups, I’m not saying I’m 100 percent correct but it is a problem to me.

 

[reen12]

Smelton,

I was a Catholic for a long time.

I finally concluded:

Protestantism speaks often of Christ.
Catholicism speaks of the Church and Christ,
pointing to St. Paul’s reference to the Church
as the Mystical Body of Christ.

I’ve been reading a lot of testimonies, recently,
of Catholics who became Evangelicals.
Many seem to say similar things:

-Christ’s sacrifice was a one-time, finished work,
that cannot be re-offered to the Father
-Tradition brings with it views and practices that
are not found in Scripture, and that Catholicism
holds Scripture and Tradition to be of equal
weight, in the life of faith
-that man-made Traditions echo that which Christ
criticized the Pharisees for generating
-that Christ saves them, by grace, through faith,
and not by sacraments that give grace
-many cite the Bereans Acts 17:11

usccb.org/nab/bible/acts/acts17.htm

-a large percentage speak of a personal relationship
with Jesus Christ
-several mention the joy and peace found among
Evangelicals, saying, basically: I want what they
have…joy, and peace, in knowing that I am saved.

As for the Church having a 2,000 year history:
I figure, if you find out you took the wrong fork
in the road, at some point, the most sensible thing
to do is to…turn back.

Apparently, that’s what Luther did.

Conscience is a good guide, IMHO, in terms of making
a spiritual decision, trusting in the Holy Spirit.

reen12

 

[estesbob]

stargazer257:

Bob, I believe you meant “without,” correct? (When I read this quickly my brain read “with” and then came a ???)

YUP-I flunked typing in High School!

 

[Della]

As for the Church having a 2,000 year history:
I figure, if you find out you took the wrong fork
in the road, at some point, the most sensible thing
to do is to…turn back.

Apparently, that’s what Luther did.

Conscience is a good guide, IMHO, in terms of making
a spiritual decision, trusting in the Holy Spirit.

reen12

I’m assuming you mean that Luther saw some things in practice that needed to be corrected? I’d agree with that. If you mean that the Church itself, not just some of its misguided members, had gone wrong in its teaching, then I cannot agree.

And while conscience can be a good guide, a conscience that is not well-formed nor well informed cannot be trusted. Truth is what ought to guide us above all other considerations. Yes?

 

[AquinasXVI]

Reen:

A lot of people with 100% of concience think that contraception is a-okay with God and then with OSAS go straight to heaven. Many of the Nazi soldiers’ believed in their conscience that annihilation of the Jews were the right thing to do.

As Della said, the conscience must be formed properly, it is not a given that the conscience is correct regarding faith and morals.

in XT.

 

[gardenswithkids]

smelton:

I’m glad that you don’t believe in the diety of priest. I guess I would prefer the priest to use better semantics. It tends to lead one to believe they are claiming to be Christ.

Someone once asked me if I thought a priest was a sort of god. I thought that was the most absurd idea I’d ever heard. I had simply told a story of a priest who had a rather extraordinary gift from God, and that person assumed I confused the priest with God. I suspected that some anti-Catholic may have planted that idea in her head; I never thought that the sematics that Catholics use may suggest that to Protestants.

smelton:

Why can’t Christ be his own representitive to his people? That is one of my hang ups, I’m not saying I’m 100 percent correct but it is a problem to me.

I think the humility of Jesus allows Him to share His authority with others. Christ certainly could be His own respresentative, but instead He choose to institute the priesthood.

And now to the thread question: what if I’m wrong and Protestants are right? Well, regarding the above on priests, I hope Jesus would see my willingness to give respect to those I thought He left to teach me about Him. I hope He’d find in me some humility because I didn’t think I personally had all the answers to interpretting the scriptures. I hope He’d recognize the times I went to Mass and adoration, I truly looked for Him. I hope He’d see in that I wasn’t trying to “earn” my own way to heaven by doing good works, but merely trying to follow Him there by doing what He did. Even if I’m not wrong, I hope He finds this.

 

[Kristina_P]

smelton:

As a protestant I leave open the possibility that I may not understand everything and I actually might have a few things wrong. I often ask myself, “What if I’m wrong?” about my faith. I’ve been visiting this board for a few weeks and I’m baffeled by the fact that anytime someone questions a Catholic Church stance there seem to be individuals who without question believe everthing the Catholic Church believes. I want to pose the question “What if the protestants are wrong?” what does that mean for us protestants. Also “What if the Catholic Church is wrong?” what does that mean for Catholics?

If you’re wrong (and Catholics are right), then you have to face the fact of not having carried out Christ’s teaching to eat His body and blood, to be in union with His Church, etc. Personally, all I can do is entrust my Protestant family to God’s mercy, and I trust that His will is best.
If I’m wrong (and Protestants are right), then I’m still okay, because I’ve trusted in the grace and sacrifice of Christ as the source of my salvation, and generally Protestants will say that that’s enough.
If neither of us are right, then we’ve all made fools of ourselves for nothing.

 

[estesbob]

reen12:

Smelton,

-a large percentage speak of a personal relationship
with Jesus Christ

-reen12

This morning I held Jesus in my hands. I cradled him for a moment and then i followed his instructions to eat his Body and drink his blood. I will do the same thing tomorrow morning. You simply can not get a more personal realationship with Jesus Christ than that.

 

[javelin]

smelton:

Why can’t Christ be his own representitive to his people? That is one of my hang ups, I’m not saying I’m 100 percent correct but it is a problem to me.

He will be, when He comes again.

But until then, He entrusted the Apostles to continue to carry out His mission. “As the Father has sent me, so I send you…Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.” “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.”

The Apostles were sent out under His authority to bring His mission to the ends of the earth. Priests are only the servants of that mission still today, acting by Christ’s authority to fulfill His mission.

So, your question of “why can’t Christ be His own representative to the people?” is a little off. Maybe we should be asking “why did Christ choose not to be His own representative to the people?” He was, until He ascended, and He will be again. But until that time, He left the job to the Apostles, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Maybe we should all pray about the why?

Peace,
javelin

 

[Todd_Easton]

smelton:

As a protestant I leave open the possibility that I may not understand everything and I actually might have a few things wrong. I often ask myself, “What if I’m wrong?” about my faith. I’ve been visiting this board for a few weeks and I’m baffeled by the fact that anytime someone questions a Catholic Church stance there seem to be individuals who without question believe everthing the Catholic Church believes. I want to pose the question “What if the protestants are wrong?” what does that mean for us protestants. Also “What if the Catholic Church is wrong?” what does that mean for Catholics?

God asks us to seek Him with a sincere heart and to try by our actions to do His will as we know it through the dictates of our conscience. If someone is in the wrong church through ignorance, God will not hold that against him:
48But he who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, shall receive a light beating. (Luke 12:48)

 

[reen12]

Hello, Della

quote: Della

And while conscience can be a good guide, a conscience that is not well-formed nor well informed cannot be trusted.

If the definition of “well informed” conscience is:
one formed by the CC, I find that circular in reasoning
and an assertion.

In several of the testimonies that I read - of Catholics
turning Evangelical, the conscience would be formed
on the Scriptures - and, like the Bereans, all claims
of Tradition would be held up to the light of same.

Best,

reen12

 

[reen12]

Hello, Aquinas XVI,

quote: Aquinas XVI

As Della said, the conscience must be formed properly, it is not a given that the conscience is correct regarding faith and morals.

Please see my reply, above, to Della.

Thanks,

reen12