What happens if I'm wrong?

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smelton:
Besides the scripture where else would you turn to find truth?
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But wait. If the Catholic Church is wrong, who says the books in the bible are really scripture? Why do you even believe Christ existed, that He was God Incarnate, and that He died for our sins and arose from the dead. If the Catholic Church is wrong in its fundamental claims, maybe your best bet is to become Jewish. It would certainly make no sense to be Christian.
 
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reen12:
Hello, Della

quote: Della

If the definition of “well informed” conscience is:
one formed by the CC, I find that circular in reasoning
and an assertion.
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If the CC has the fullness of truth, (which it does) it isn’t circular reasoning but the correct yardstick to use. Someone must have the truth or Jesus was a liar. And since Jesus founded the CC and promised it would be led into all truth by the Holy Spirit, I’ll take his word for it.
In several of the testimonies that I read - of Catholics
turning Evangelical, the conscience would be formed
on the Scriptures - and, like the Bereans, all claims
of Tradition would be held up to the light of same.

Best,

reen12
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And how can you be sure they are doing what is truly right in God’s eyes simply by reading the Bible? All sorts of people read the Bible who believe and do things that are not right in God’s eyes, but who think they are fine because of their personal interpretation allows them to read what they want and ignore what they don’t want to see. Having been a Pentecostalist, I saw people justify themselves all the time by making themselves their own magisterium, but that didn’t make them right.

As for the Berean thing–that passage has been improperly interpreted by those who use it to believe whatever they want. Hardly convincing or proof they know what they are doing.
 
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smelton:
…I’ve been visiting this board for a few weeks and I’m baffeled by the fact that anytime someone questions a Catholic Church stance there seem to be individuals who without question believe everthing the Catholic Church believes.
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Are you equally baffled by the fact that there seem to be Protestants who “without question” (whatever that means) believe everything the bible teaches? You should be.
 
quote: Della
If the CC has the fullness of truth, (which it does)…
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An if…then form, followed by the same assertion.
“…which it does…”

The claim that Scripture is hers alone to interpret,
puts me in mind of workers in the vineyard, claiming
that they now “own” the crop.

quote: Della
As for the Berean thing–that passage has been improperly interpreted by those who use it to believe whatever they want.
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If “improperly interpreted” = not the interpretation of the CC,
then I hold that we are, again, involved in circular reasoning.
[If…then…]

quote: Della
Hardly convincing or proof they know what they are doing.
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I realize that that is your assessment of the reality,
and I respect same.

Best,

reen12
 
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smelton:
So if the Pope comes out and says, “The Catholic Church believes this …” Then does that make it something you can not question? Does the church have the same authority as the Bible? Does the Pope have the same authority? The reason I ask is because just from perusing this site for a while it seems to me, I could be wrong, that the catholic faith teaches those things. I just wonder if Catholics ever wonder, what if its wrong. What is Martin Luther was right? What if the traditions of the church is all bunk? Do you ever question these things?
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It was questioning these things vice versa that made me Catholic. I stopped asking, “What if the Church is wrong?” and started asking, “Why does the Church believe that?” The answers I got made more sense than the questions.

I still question things: every day of my life. The Church does not ask, as many claim of her, that we park our brains at the door. Nor does she expect every one of us to have *all *the answers. I have a lot of questions. Fortunately, the Church has answered enough of them that I have confidence that her answers to my remaining questions will be sound and true.

Once I put together the Scriptural-historical links that led me to understand that the Catholic Church is the thread that really does go back to Christ himself – the Church to which he promised “the comforter, who will guide you into all the truth,” – then I had to face up to the fact that the Church is a privileged place as the Body of Christ. I had to succumb. It wasn’t easy. But it was necessary. Oh. And WORTH it!
 
It’s funny that you asked that question, because my husband and I were discussing that last night. We both feel that, although we believe the Cathlic Church to be the true Church (the fullness of Christ), it’s what is in your heart. It’s how much you love God and others that really matters. As for myself, the Church is where I get the graces and the strength to love God and my neighbor.
 
So if the Pope comes out and says, “The Catholic Church believes this …” Then does that make it something you can not question? Does the church have the same authority as the Bible? Does the Pope have the same authority? The reason I ask is because just from perusing this site for a while it seems to me, I could be wrong, that the catholic faith teaches those things. I just wonder if Catholics ever wonder, what if its wrong. What is Martin Luther was right? What if the traditions of the church is all bunk? Do you ever question these things?

Of course we question! If we weren’t the questioning type of people we probably wouldn’t be Catholic :-).
There is so much I question on a daily basis, but I still put my faith in the Church established by Christ (not the individuals). I/We trust that Christ will lead His Church in the right direction ("…and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it"). We trust that the scriptures are the inspired word of God and we also trust in the infalliblity of the pope.
Very good question! Makes us think and that’s good.
 
If you are wrong? you are immdiately declared a senior member of this forum, along with the rest of us. we are the ones hopping around with one foot in our mouth most of the time
 
quote: mercygate
Once I put together the Scriptural-historical links that led me to understand that the Catholic Church is the thread that really does go back to Christ himself –
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No one who has read history will fail to acknowledge
that the CC is the direct structural line, from Christ. That
is not the issue.

What is at issue, is what those, in this direct line, have
done - with the gospel message and the commentary on
same, written by St. Paul, et al.

To the Reformers and those who followed their stand, the gospel
had become unrecognizable- by the early 16th century-
as re-presented by the hierarchy, in this direct structural
line.

It is, in the end, a matter of conscience…in the sense
of con scio [with knowledge.]

To call parts of Tradition a development -when same
constitutes a departure -is an act of, literally, “incredible” assertion.
When same is declared to be protected by the
Holy Spirit, this is where conscience kicks in-
for those who, like the Bereans, “search scripture”
to “test all things.”

As CatholicChef said:

quote: CatholicChef
As for myself, the Church is where I get the graces and the strength to love God and my neighbor.
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All who claim Christ as Savior are told:
“And the greatest of these is charity.”

Those who would “bash” the CC- or wonder if members
of same are ‘Christians’ - fail in charity, IMHO.
Under the aegis of the principle many learned in childhood:
Two errors don’t make a right.

Best,

reen12
 
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reen12:
When same is declared to be protected by the
Holy Spirit, this is where conscience kicks in-
for those who, like the Bereans, “search scripture”
to “test all things.”
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How does one search scripture, though, to test what books are scriptural?

More puzzling, how does one rely confidently on scripture, without practicing a circular reasoning similar to what you accuse unquestioning Catholics of doing?

Peace.
John
 
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smelton:
That is a scary thought to me. The church is made up of sinners, sinners make mistakes. Seems to me a logical conclusion. What is to prevent the abuse of power that the Pope and the bishops have? If Christ were the Pope I would have no objection since I know what he says is truth.
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Along with the excellent responses you’ve received here, I think you will find these articles helpful:

bringyou.to/apologetics/a48.htm

bringyou.to/apologetics/a47.htm

bringyou.to/apologetics/a46.htm

bringyou.to/apologetics/a45.htm

bringyou.to/apologetics/a44.htm
 
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smelton:
I use this as an example, no offense meant Maria. If the Catholic Church is wrong, it does not nullify what Christ did. If the Christian Non-denomination church is wrong, it does not nullify what Christ did. My faith is in Christ and his grace not in the church.
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No offense taken:)

You misunderstand I think what I am saying. What I am saying is this, which as a revert/convert is from a slightly different direction than others:D .
I believe the Bible is 100% inspired and 100% true. Yes?

The Bible tells us that

:bible1: 1Tim 3:15 But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

:bible1: Matthew 16:18 And so I say to you, you are Peter and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.

If the Catholic Church teaches untruth, then the church is not a foundation of truth. If the church teaches untruth, then hell has prevailed against the church. It means God was unable to keep those promises, or that the Bible is useless to look for direction at all. If the Catholic Church teaches untruth, how can I even know that Christ died? How can I trust Scripture was kept inspired by God if God was unable to keep the teaching in His Church inspired by Him? How can Scripture be inspired if the Church is wrong and teaching untruth would clearly contradict scripture?

If the Catholic Church teaches untruth, then that would mean Scripture is false. And truly, you might as well be Mormon or JW if the truth can change.

**I have such a firm faith in my Church because I have such a firm faith in Christ and His promises to His Church. My God is big enough to “lead you to all truth” not just on a personal level, but a whole Church. **

My “saving grace sermon” at a Nazarene Church was “Either you believe the Bible cover to cover including the cover or we have nothing else to talk about” . That sermon lead me to my knees and to Christ. Eventually the Holy Spirit lead me to the Catholic Church. Either Scripture is from God or it isn’t. Either it is 100% true or it isn’t. The only way it can be 100% true, is if the Catholic Church is still a pillar and foundation of truth.

**Individuals within a Church can be wrong, but the official teachings of the Catholic Church must be true, or Scripture is a lie. It is that simple for me. **

But you are also touching an important point in the Catholic Church.

We teach that we are saved through Christ alone. But we go on further through scripture to show that Christ is the Church. The “Church” is more than an invisible concept. It is a visible structure promised by God to never fail. Christ is His visible Church.

God Bless,
Maria
 
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VociMike:
But wait. If the Catholic Church is wrong, who says the books in the bible are really scripture? Why do you even believe Christ existed, that He was God Incarnate, and that He died for our sins and arose from the dead. If the Catholic Church is wrong in its fundamental claims, maybe your best bet is to become Jewish. It would certainly make no sense to be Christian.
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Scripture validates what Jesus did, it is not what he did. If we didn’t have a bible, approved by which ever council, it would not change Jesus sacrifice. It was his actions which save us.
 
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smelton:
Scripture validates what Jesus did, it is not what he did. If we didn’t have a bible, approved by which ever council, it would not change Jesus sacrifice. It was his actions which save us.
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. . . and we could not know with certainty that that Sacrifice was real, that it was efficacious. I’m always boggled by R. C. Sproul’s honest analysis that "for Catholics, the Bible is an infallible collection of infallible books, but for Protestants, the Bible is a fallible collection of infallible books.

Pick one!
 
quote:FCEG
How does one search scripture, though, to test what books are scriptural?

More puzzling, how does one rely confidently on scripture, without practicing a circular reasoning similar to what you accuse unquestioning Catholics of doing?
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FCEG, I make a statement:
Some of the doctrine held by the CC I asses as
being counter-scriptural.

If a given individual accepts that these doctrines are
*not *counter-scriptural, in conscience, I have no
difficulty with that. If, having read scripture, no
questions arise, as to the doctrine of the CC, I don’t
see this as “unquestioning,” I see it as a differing
assessment of what is read.

The definition of “circular reasoning” is to use the
assertion that is to be proved, to prove the premise under
discussion.
That God employed the CC, to assemble Scripture,
is both an ecclesial as well as an historical fact.

Having assembled same, the reading of what was
assembled- and the conclusions drawn from same-
are where the departures occur - and, in conscience,
I cannot accept same, and still claim that I am
following the very scriptures that the CC assembled.

Best,

reen12*
 
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reen12:
That God employed the CC, to assemble Scripture,
is both an ecclesial as well as an historical fact.

Having assembled same, the reading of what was
assembled- and the conclusions drawn from same-
are where the departures occur - and, in conscience,
I cannot accept same, and still claim that I am
following the very scriptures that the CC assembled.
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If one claims that the Holy Spirit inspired the CC to assemble Scripture–we could surmise that the same Holy Spirit enabled the Church to interpret them in truth. If that be the case, then Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition are compatible and complementary. The benchmark has been established by the Holy Spirit and we now have the means to properly form our conscience.

If, on the other hand, you feel that the Holy Spirit abandoned the Church and allowed it to fall into error, then you would most likely follow the precepts of protestantism.

Peace,
Mickey
 
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smelton:
That is a scary thought to me. The church is made up of sinners, sinners make mistakes. Seems to me a logical conclusion. What is to prevent the abuse of power that the Pope and the bishops have? If Christ were the Pope I would have no objection since I know what he says is truth.
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What is to prevent a protestant from misinterpreting the Bible?
 
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BlindSheep:
What is to prevent a protestant from misinterpreting the Bible?
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Nothing more than what keeps churches from making mistakes. Nothing but the Holy Spirit. Often times though He is simply ignored. I have heard absolutley horendous sermons in protestant churches. Misinterpreted scripture. Abuse of power. Man’s opinion pronounced as if it was God’s opinion. I am absolutley irritated and offended when these things happen. I address them as I felt led by the Spirit. Sometimes by confrontation(with love) and sometimes by simple prayer. If you ask me, which you didn’t, I would say legalism runs a muck in our churches. It repulses me every time I hear it, it seems we are trying to negate God’s grace by adding rules. I was taught by my father, who is a protestant minister, to measure everything to scripture. That is why I wondered, at the begining of this thread, what a Catholic’s opinon on questioning the church was.
 
Measuring everything to Scripture is fine, but how do you know your interpretation of that Scripture is correct?

Patrick Madrid has an analogy I would like to share with you from his book Where is *That *in the Bible.

100 years ago, someone wrote:

“I never said you stole money.”

Do you understand what those 6 words mean? Are you sure?

Perhaps the person when he said it meant:

“*I *never said you stole money.” implying that someone else said it.

Or maybe:

“I never said you stole money” He thought it, he suspected it but never said it.

Or, “I never said *you *stole money”. He meant that you lost the money or you squandered it, or did something else with it, but you didn’t steal it.

Or “I never said you stole money.” Maybe you stole a pig not money.

Which is more likely to be misinterpreted. These 6 words or the bible?

As you said yourself, different pastors can horribly twist Scripture. How do you know you have the right interpretation?

God Bless,
Maria
 
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