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OneBlanketBoss
Guest
I am aware of the Ebionites as well as the Nazarenes both denied the divinity of Christ though.
However I did not know that some Ebionites accepted the virgin birth. Very interesting.
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However I did not know that some Ebionites accepted the virgin birth. Very interesting.
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Robert_in_SD
Guest
Here’s what the Catechism of the Catholic Church has to say about Jesus the Only Son of God and His divinity. I’ve included the references as well. I think this may assist you in your search for an answer:
III. The Only Son of God
441 In the Old Testament, “son of God” is a title given to the angels, the Chosen People, the children of Israel, and their kings.44 It signifies an adoptive sonship that establishes a relationship of particular intimacy between God and his creature. When the promised Messiah-King is called “son of God”, it does not necessarily imply that he was more than human, according to the literal meaning of these texts. Those who called Jesus “son of God”, as the Messiah of Israel, perhaps meant nothing more than this.45
442 Such is not the case for Simon Peter when he confesses Jesus as “the Christ, the Son of the living God”, for Jesus responds solemnly: "Flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven."46 Similarly Paul will write, regarding his conversion on the road to Damascus, "When he who had set me apart before I was born, and had called me through his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles…"47 "and in the synagogues immediately [Paul] proclaimed Jesus, saying, ‘He is the Son of God.’"48 From the beginning this acknowledgment of Christ’s divine sonship will be the centre of the apostolic faith, first professed by Peter as the Church’s foundation.49
443 Peter could recognize the transcendent character of the Messiah’s divine sonship because Jesus had clearly allowed it to be so understood. To his accusers’ question before the Sanhedrin, “Are you the Son of God, then?” Jesus answered, "You say that I am."50 Well before this, Jesus referred to himself as “the Son” who knows the Father, as distinct from the “servants” God had earlier sent to his people; he is superior even to the angels.51 He distinguished his sonship from that of his disciples by never saying “our Father”, except to command them: “You, then, pray like this: ‘Our Father’”, and he emphasized this distinction, saying “my Father and your Father”.52
444 The Gospels report that at two solemn moments, the Baptism and the Transfiguration of Christ, the voice of the Father designates Jesus his “beloved Son”.53 Jesus calls himself the “only Son of God”, and by this title affirms his eternal pre-existence.54 He asks for faith in “the name of the only Son of God”.55 In the centurion’s exclamation before the crucified Christ, “Truly this man was the Son of God”,56 that Christian confession is already heard. Only in the Paschal mystery can the believer give the title “Son of God” its full meaning.
445 After his Resurrection, Jesus’ divine sonship becomes manifest in the power of his glorified humanity. He was “designated Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his Resurrection from the dead”.57 The apostles can confess: "We have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth."58
44Cf. Dt 14:1; (LXX) 32:8; ⇒ Job 1:6; Ex 4:22; ⇒ Hos 2:1; ⇒ 11:1; ⇒ Jer 3:19; ⇒ Sir 36:11; Wis 18:13; 2 Sam 7:14; ⇒ Ps 82:6.
45 Cf. I Chr 17:13; ⇒ Ps 2:7; ⇒ Mt 27:54; ⇒ Lk 23:47.
46 ⇒ Mt 16:16-17.
47 ⇒ Gal 1:15-16.
48 ⇒ Acts 9:20.
49 Cf. I Th 1:10; ⇒ Jn 20:31; ⇒ Mt 16:18.
50 ⇒ Lk 22:70; cf. ⇒ Mt 26:64; ⇒ Mk 14:61-62.
51 Cf. ⇒ Mt 11:27; ⇒ 21:34-38; ⇒ 24:36.
52 ⇒ Mt 5:48; ⇒ 6:8-9; ⇒ 7:21; ⇒ Lk 11:13; ⇒ Jn 20:17.
53 Cf. ⇒ Mt 3:17; cf. ⇒ 17:5.
54 ⇒ Jn 3:16; cf. ⇒ 10:36.
55 ⇒ Jn 3:18.
56 ⇒ Mk 15:39.
57 ⇒ Rom 1:3; cf. ⇒ Acts 13:33.
58 ⇒ Jn 1:14.
See also, Matthew, Chapter 28. The apostles worshipped Jesus after His resurrection.
OBB:
The short answer is that it depends on whether you are responding to the grace that God have given you. God holds you accountable for what you should know, but He does not hold against you what you reasonably do not know. Whether one is saved with the knowledge of Christ and His Church, or despite a lack of knowledge, Jesus is still the way in which one is saved. See Lumen Gentium par. 15-16 for a better description of what the Church teaches.
OBB:
I’ll leave this question to be answered by my Muslim and Jewish friends at the forum.
Peace,
Robert
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Church_Militant
Guest
Have you read the New Testament? I would think that the deity of Christ was pretty well defined in the following passage. Bolding is of course mine …
***[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[2] He was in the beginning with God;
[3] all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.
[4] In him was life, and the life was the light of men.
[5] The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. **
[6] There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
[7] He came for testimony, to bear witness to the light, that all might believe through him.
[8] He was not the light, but came to bear witness to the light.
[9] The true light that enlightens every man was coming into the world.
[10] He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world knew him not.
[11] He came to his own home, and his own people received him not.
[12] But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God;
[13] who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
**[14] And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father. **
[15] (John bore witness to him, and cried, “This was he of whom I said, `He who comes after me ranks before me, for he was before me.’”)
[16] And from his fulness have we all received, grace upon grace.
[17] For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
**[18] No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.
***Verse 3 in particular is pretty conclusive. Since “all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.” and we know that God alone creates then it follows…
***[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[2] He was in the beginning with God;
[3] all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.
[4] In him was life, and the life was the light of men.
[5] The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. **
[6] There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
[7] He came for testimony, to bear witness to the light, that all might believe through him.
[8] He was not the light, but came to bear witness to the light.
[9] The true light that enlightens every man was coming into the world.
[10] He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world knew him not.
[11] He came to his own home, and his own people received him not.
[12] But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God;
[13] who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
**[14] And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father. **
[15] (John bore witness to him, and cried, “This was he of whom I said, `He who comes after me ranks before me, for he was before me.’”)
[16] And from his fulness have we all received, grace upon grace.
[17] For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
**[18] No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.
***Verse 3 in particular is pretty conclusive. Since “all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.” and we know that God alone creates then it follows…
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Peter_J
Guest
From the Second Vatican Council:
Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.
- Lumen Gentium 14
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Vico
Guest
John 14
5 Thomas saith to him: Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? 6 Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me.
7 If you had known me, you would without doubt have known my Father also: and from henceforth you shall know him, and you have seen him.
8 Philip saith to him: Lord, shew us the Father, and it is enough for us. 9 Jesus saith to him: Have I been so long a time with you; and have you not known me? Philip, he that seeth me seeth the Father also. How sayest thou, Shew us the Father? 10 Do you not believe, that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak to you, I speak not of myself. But the Father who abideth in me, he doth the works. 11 Believe you not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? 12 Otherwise believe for the very works’ sake. Amen, amen I say to you, he that believeth in me, the works that I do, he also shall do; and greater than these shall he do. 13 Because I go to the Father: and whatsoever you shall ask the Father in my name, that will I do: that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you shall ask me any thing in my name, that I will do.
Matthew 26
57 But they holding Jesus led him to Caiphas the high priest, where the scribes and the ancients were assembled. 58 And Peter followed him afar off, even to the court of the high priest. And going in, he sat with the servants, that he might see the end.
59 And the chief priests and the whole council sought false witness against Jesus, that they might put him to death: 60And they found not, whereas many false witnesses had come in. And last of all there came two false witnesses: 61 And they said: This man said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and after three days to rebuild it. 62 And the high priest rising up, said to him: Answerest thou nothing to the things which these witness against thee? 63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest said to him: I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us if thou be the Christ the Son of God. 64 Jesus saith to him: Thou hast said it. Nevertheless I say to you, hereafter you shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of the power of God, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
65 Then the high priests rent his garments, saying: He hath blasphemed; what further need have we of witnesses? Behold, now you have heard the blasphemy: 66 What think you? But they answering, said: He is guilty of death.
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rcwitness
Guest
The Bible says that worship is only to be given to God.
Matthew 4:10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’ "
In the Bible there were examples of people kneeling down to apostles and angels, but this behavior was corrected.
Acts 10:25-26 As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence. 26 But Peter made him get up. “Stand up,” he said, “I am only a man myself.”
Revelation 19:10 At this I fell at his feet to worship him [angel]. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus.”
Revelation 22:8-9 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. 9 But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your fellow prophets and with all who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God!”
But Jesus is worshiped in the Bible.
Hebrews 1:6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
“Let all God’s angels worship him.”
Matthew 2:11 On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh.
Matthew 8:2 A man with leprosy[a] came and knelt before him and said, “Lord, if you are willing, you can make me clean.”
Matthew 9:18 While he was saying this, a synagogue leader came and knelt before him and said, “My daughter has just died. But come and put your hand on her, and she will live.”
Mark 5:6 When he saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and fell on his knees in front of him.
Matthew 14 32-33 And when they climbed into the boat, the wind died down. 33 Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”
John 9:37-38 Jesus said, “You have now seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you.”38 Then the man said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him.
Matthew 28 8-9 So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples. 9 Suddenly Jesus met them. “Greetings,” he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him.
Luke 24 While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up into heaven. 52 Then they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy.
Jesus is worshiped because he is God.
Matthew 1:23 “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel”[g] (which means “God with us”).
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God…14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Colossians 2:9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,
Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
Philippians 2:6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;…10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
I think it is OK to address your prayers to God the Father instead of Jesus. All parts of the Trinity are God and can be prayed to. However the only way our sins can be removed and we can be made just and “saved” in God’s eyes is if we accept Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross to cover our sins.
1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
John 3:16-18 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
By accepting Jesus, we can know the Father.
John 14:6-10 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know** my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”
8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”
9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me**? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.Thanks so much Susan!
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rcwitness
Guest
Nice quote. I think some Christians can look at this writing and appreciate it’s insight. Others might look at it and feel threatened by its boldness.
Basically, it says to me that through truly believing, we are made members of His body (Church). There is a relationship implied in the passage that is profound. We can’t know Jesus without knowing the Church. It is just how He fashioned things. Since He ascended, we know Him through the body He entrusts. And we become part of that body, with its graces and responsibilities.
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GLam8833
Guest
I hear a lot of “to Jesus thru Mary” in
the Catholic dimension of spirituality,
and might add “to God thru Jesus”,
Jesus himself said:“No one comes
to the Father, except thru Me” John
14:7, Mary has been elevated to
Divinity by the Title Mother of God,
she is also SINLESS, tho human.
Catholics, however, do not worship
Mary as the same as God, only as
Queen Mother as Bathsheba was
to Solomon.
the Catholic dimension of spirituality,
and might add “to God thru Jesus”,
Jesus himself said:“No one comes
to the Father, except thru Me” John
14:7, Mary has been elevated to
Divinity by the Title Mother of God,
she is also SINLESS, tho human.
Catholics, however, do not worship
Mary as the same as God, only as
Queen Mother as Bathsheba was
to Solomon.
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Peter_J
Guest
Not to get away from the original topic … But since you brought that up I’d suggest the following question for any Protestants who think we worship Mary because she’s sinless: Given that Catholics and Protestants alike believe the (unfallen) angels to be sinless, does that mean that we worship them?
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rcwitness
Guest
Mary is not elevated to divinity! We might say “Mary, and all the faithful, are elevated to the Divinity, who is God the Trinity alone.”
“Elevated to Divinity” is like an oxymoron. Jesus is divine because He always was. He descended to Mary.
“The King must kneel, to let His kingdom rise.”
Rush - Bastille Day
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Peter_J
Guest
Glam, I was a bit hasty earlier when I read and replied to your post. Rcw is absolutely right, the Church never elevated Mary to divinity.
I would just like to add, when you post you should bear in mind that some people are likely to read whatever you say and assume that it represents all Catholics. (I’m not saying that they have a right to do so, but it definitely happens.) Sometime do a search for websites that claim that “Catholics worship Mary” or similar statements. It’s likely to be a sobering experience.
I would just like to add, when you post you should bear in mind that some people are likely to read whatever you say and assume that it represents all Catholics. (I’m not saying that they have a right to do so, but it definitely happens.) Sometime do a search for websites that claim that “Catholics worship Mary” or similar statements. It’s likely to be a sobering experience.
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GLam8833
Guest
Sorry to have mislead readers, I was just
regurgeting on what I believe Catholics
thot of Mary.
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Peter_J
Guest
Fair enough. Unfortunately though, people tend to assume that something is true if they see it in black and white. (Yes, even something posted anonymously on the internet.
)
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ericc
Guest
The statement does not claim divinity in itself.
We believe in the triune God. That is the Godhead consist of 3 beings, Father , Son and Holy Spirit. Jesus said in order to know the Father you must know the Son cause he and the Father are I. The triune God is monotheistic. The 3 persons have always co-existed but Jesus 2000 years ago, came to dwell with us, to show us the visible God, to show us how to live and worship. To show the path to the Father is through Him.
You would be cherry picking. John 1:1. In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. When one start ala carte style worshiping, you create your own God in your own image.
It does matter who you pray to. The Our Father is directed to the Father for example. It is not about the Son or the Holy Spirit. Jesus taught us how to pray to his Father. And the disciples eventually came to realise that Jesus is indeed God (and the Holy Spirit too after Resurrection. ) Jesus indicated the Trinity in the baptism formula. If you are baptised with just the name of Father and excluding the other two, I doubt the baptism is valid. And it will be in direct violation to Jesus’ command.
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John_Yurich_USA
Guest
Naturally anybody who does not worship Jesus as God and does not give their life to Jesus as their Savior and Lord will be spending eternity in Hell.
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Robert_in_SD
Guest
Is this sarcasm, or do you think this is what the Catholic Church actually teaches? If the latter, you are incorrect. The Church is very clear in Lumen Gentium that the plan of salvation may include those who, through no fault of their own, do not have knowledge of Christ and His Church. From Lumen Gentium:Naturally anybody who does not worship Jesus as God and does not give their life to Jesus as their Savior and Lord will be spending eternity in Hell.
Peace,
Robert
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