What happens in Germany

[Tis_Bearself]

Today is the feast of St. Boniface, the missionary to the Germans. St. Boniface, please pray for Germany. Amen.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

We’ll die off long after you because of numerical advantages is dangerous thinking. The PERCENTAGE of loss is about the same. Rates and total numbers are way different animals.

As I said, it’s not that Catholics should not be concerned about their own numbers, but neither should they be knocking themselves out to placate some schismatic group that is shrinking of its own accord.

 

[Spyridon]

Excellency indirectly gives the best arguments I’ve ever heard regarding why inter-communion with Protestants is not allowed,

Inter-communion with Lutheran spouses has ALWAYS been accepted…

All they have to do is come into full Communion with the Catholic Church by accepting all She teaches. Then they can receive Communion every day if they want.

This is so simple.

I don’t understand why people complicate such simple matters.

If you’re in full communion with the Church you can receive Communion.

If you’re not in full communion you cannot receive Communion.

There is no need to spend millions of $, thousands of hours talking, thousands of pages written dissecting this issue. This is literally kindergarten level moral theology. Why do the German hierarchs feel the need to complicate Kindergarten stuff to Doctoral level analyses?

“Much learning maketh thee mad. Be not more wise than is necessary, lest thou become stupid.”

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Which brings us back to my question. Why would somebody who doesn’t believe in the teaching of the Catholic Church, to the point where they do not want to be a member but instead prefer to be a member in the church up the street, want to receive communion in the Catholic Church?

I do not believe in the teachings of various Protestant churches that offer communion, and I have no desire to receive communion in their church. If I were to go to a service at that church, for example with a spouse or for someone’s wedding or funeral, I would pray along to the extent the prayers were consistent with Catholic teaching (and usually they are) but communion to me implies an endorsement of the teaching of that faith community and I wouldn’t want to sign on to that.

 

[PJH_74]

As I said, it’s not that Catholics should not be concerned about their own numbers

I’ll try this one more time. Both mainline Protestants and Catholics are in about the same rate of decline. If you are a large ship (Catholics) or a small boat (mainline Protestants) and are each flooding at 5% per minute; you both will sink 20 minutes. My point is not to attack Catholicism, it’s a call against assuming nothing needs to be done.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I don’t know why you are continuing to post this when I have acknowledged your point, twice, including once before you even posted the first time.

Have a nice day

 

[YourNameHere]

It is never too late. But you seem to have convinced yourself to leave the church.
I will pray for you.

 

[eagerbeaver]

Just picked this up - it may be of interest

https://www.churchmilitant.com/news/article/cdf-says-no-to-german-intercommunion

 

[Constantin]

I am still here, still Catholic and probably will be so next week.
This is a very important decision, worst thing would be to hurry.
However, I have been considering to leave the German Catholic church, yes.
For the time being, I can go to a traditional (EF) parish which obviously has reverent liturgy, good homilies and no-nonsense in general. But it does not feel right going to mass there, but never helping the parish financially, when it depends on donations - contrary to the “official” German Catholic church. But if you leave the German Catholic church, i.e. no longer pay church taxes, you are technically excommunicated. This is crazy.

 

[HolySpirit]

God Bless Archbishop Chaput. It is nice to see a simple common sense response to the misguided folly perpetuated by the German Church. Chaput is a true blessing.

 

[Spyridon]

flooding at 5% per minute; you both will sink 20 minutes. My

No you would not.

You would sink in about 100 minutes.

 

[sororetfilia]

Can you go to an italian or polish parish? They usually have traditional liturgy and reverence for the Holy Mass.
By the way, I feel your resignation and understand it. I have come to the point where I became so angry by the ugliness ofthe church and its profanity alone that I had to go to confession afterwards, not to mention the overall state of the German church.
But I guess giving in would play into the devils’s hands, and while I am weak and a sinner, I will not give him that victory. On the contrary. It’s time to follow the steps of the early church and Christians and humbly do what is the right thing no matter what the rest does.
This can be an opportunity for spiritual growth and regeneration. Let’s pray and be more confident and lead by example, be courageous and learn to defend our faith.
What helps me through this feelings of wanting to leave the church (i, for example, have been looking very friendly at the orthodox church and played with the idea of becoming orthodox) I remember that hundreds of people before my died the most cruel and terrible deaths for the faith. Every generation has its own challenges, its own cross to carry, and we should show that we are capable of carrying it, even if some “cardinals” won’t.

 

[Constantin]

If I can, I go to a FSSP parish, though it means some travelling on Sundays.
Your post is mostly rallying calls.
I agree that one should not give in early and put up a fight.
However, it wears you out, especially when you do not see a realistic chance for improvement in Germany. At the end of the day, you have to think of your own salvation.
If the German Catholic church makes you loose your faith, it is probably not a good place to stay.

 

[sororetfilia]

Of course it is a rally call, what else would you expect from a Catholic, hey ?

I find it interesting that you wrote the German Catholic church made you lose YOUR faith; I had had the impression you thought the church had lost her faith, abandoned us, so to speak, and that that was the source of your despair.

Anyways. I, for one, have chosen to do the opposite and to become active in my parish. It is probably a matter of personality how you react to the sometimes sad reality, but I fail to see how it is supposed to get better if those who still hold to the catholic faith abandon the church and let it be taken over by… well, by the cardinal Marx & Co. of this world.

As Saint Pope John Paul II said: “Do not abandon yourselves to despair. We are the Easter people and Hallelujah is our song.”

God bless you and give you the nerves & patience we need to live with our Bischofskonferenz.

Your sister in Christ
Andrea

 

[Dovekin]

I’m baffled as to why a non-Catholic spouse would even want to receive Catholic communion.

The bishops of Britain, when they said this might be allowed on special occasions, gave some examples:

1. What might be meant by other unique occasions for joy or sorrow in the life of a family or an individual?
   These are situations in which there may be an objectively grave and pressing spiritual need for a person to receive Holy Communion. We give examples of such circumstances, without in any way intending to suggest categories of situations in which admission to the sacrament would be generally granted. The admission of a particular individual on one such unique occasion does not mean that another individual would necessarily be admitted in a similar situation. Requests to be admitted to Holy Communion may come from the parent of a child to be baptised during Mass, or receiving First Holy Communion or Confirmation; the parent or wife of someone being ordained; the intimate family of the deceased at a Funeral Mass.…

 

[PJM]

Great article here from Archbishop Chaput regarding the German debate about inter-communion for Lutheran spouses.

His Excellency indirectly gives the best arguments I’ve ever heard regarding why inter-communion with Protestants is not allowed, while inter-communion with the Orthodox is.

God Bless

This is 100% EXCELLENT!

Thank you so much for sharing it.

This issue holds the potential to divide our Precious RCC in MY opinion,

Patrick

 

[phil19034]

Tis_Bearself:

I’m baffled as to why a non-Catholic spouse would even want to receive Catholic communion.

The bishops of Britain, when they said this might be allowed on special occasions, gave some examples:

1. What might be meant by other unique occasions for joy or sorrow in the life of a family or an individual?
   These are situations in which there may be an objectively grave and pressing spiritual need for a person to receive Holy Communion. We give examples of such circumstances, without in any way intending to suggest categories of situations in which admission to the sacrament would be generally granted. The admission of a particular individual on one such unique occasion does not mean that another individual would necessarily be admitted in a similar situation. Requests to be admitted to Holy Communion may come from the parent of a child to be baptised during Mass, or receiving First Holy Communion or Confirmation; the parent or wife of someone being ordained; the intimate family of the deceased at a Funeral Mass.…

But even this makes little sense. If a DEVOUT Catholic marries a non-Catholic, one would assume that the non-Catholic spouse knows he/she cannot receive Communion. Esp if it’s the non-Catholic wife of a man being ordained! And I’m sure the non-Catholic mother of a man being ordained has had several years to learn from her son why she can’t receive communion.

It just doesn’t make sense.

The only place I see this as being a real life issue is with non-Catholics who are married / related to Catholic who should not be receiving Communion themselves.

God Bless

 

[Dovekin]

I’m sure the non-Catholic mother of a man being ordained has had several years to learn from her son why she can’t receive communion.

A woman brings up her son to believe in Christ and give his life for Him. For whatever reason, that faith leads him to seek ordination as a Roman Catholic. And you think his first act as a priest should be to repudiate the mother who taught him?

And you think that is what Catholicism is about? That this is reasonable?

 

[phil19034]

A woman brings up her son to believe in Christ and give his life for Him. For whatever reason, that faith leads him to seek ordination as a Roman Catholic. And you think his first act as a priest should be to repudiate the mother who taught him?

And you think that is what Catholicism is about? That this is reasonable?

I’m sorry, but that is not what I said, nor what I meant.

Come on.

A man getting ordained to Permanent Deaconate has on average 5 years to have a difficult discussion about the differences between the Catholic Faith and Protestant faiths with his family (and the Deacon’s wife has the right to “veto” him getting ordained).

For the Priesthood, at least 7 years to discuss with his family

And the married man getting ordained as a priest, though the pastoral provision, also has plenty of time because surely he had the discussion before leaving his ministry in his protestant denomination.

Do you honestly think that a man getting ordained in the Catholic Church, who has a non-catholic spouse or parents, has never had a theological discussion about the faith before his ordination?

Come on.

 

[dochawk]

I’m baffled as to why a non-Catholic spouse would even want to receive Catholic communion

If the non-Catholic spouse believed in the actual presences in the RC Eucharist, I’d be more baffled by one not wanting to receive with the spouse . . .

These are European Lutherans. Different ballgame.

As my Protestant Theology professor used to note, the differences between the US denominations and their mother groups in Europe are generally much larger than between that US denomination and other US denominations. (yes, among my claims to fail is that I have significantly more formal Protestant Theology than most non-minister Protestants . . .)

According to Wikipedia (yes I know it’s Wikipedia), the only Lutheran group universally considered part of the “mainline Protestantism” is the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. The rest of the Lutherans in American are not considered “mainline”

Yes, but the ELCA was formed by a merger of the three largest Lutheran groups, and dwarfs the rest of US Lutherans put together . . .