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STT
Guest
So how could we possibly become perfect, God, to avoid sin?
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Gorgias
Guest
Great question… and the Church has an answer!
It’s called “Purgation”. Sometimes, you’ll hear it called “Purgatory”.
In the book of Revelation, we read that there is nothing that is imperfect in heaven. Therefore, (since we are sinners, and therefore, are imperfect), there is a process of ‘purgation’, through which our venial sins are forgiven and any temporal punishment due to sin is eliminated.
The result is that, when we enter into the Beatific Vision – that is, into the presence of God in heaven – we have been purified and perfected.
(Along the lines of our conversation here: that means that free will continues to exist in heaven, but since we’re perfected and not subject to concupiscence, we will not misuse free will by choosing to sin. We don’t become God, per se, but we do become what we were intended to become all along: perfect and in God’s presence for eternity.)
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Wesrock
Guest
All those in Heaven have chosen God. Even the invincibly ignorant who had no real knowledge or catechesis on God. God isn’t a being in the way Zeus and Odin and the like were characterized. He’s not just an arbitrary most-powerful-being among beings that you’re being asked to accept. He is the foundation of reality, and I mean that more in the way a house is built on a foundation, not just in the way a clockmaker is the “foundation” of his clock. To truly follow and pursue the good and the true is one manner of pursuing God. God is goodness and truth, not just as adjectives to describe him. That’s not to reduce Him to only those loose abstract concepts, for He is a real being who has a real substance who is personal, but the goodness and truth in our reality are just, in a way, reflections of God, or analogous to what He is.
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ANV
Guest
What I meant was prior to humanity.
But good reply.
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STT
Guest
Great. First, where the impurity comes from? Second, is the Beatific Vision is another creation “finite being into infinite being”.
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Wesrock
Guest
Ah, I misunderstood. Did you mean the angels who rejected God according to Church Teaching? I do not know if it has been formally defined, but the teaching I’m familiar with from theologians is that the angels were not granted the beatific vision of God at the start. The angels were tested first, and only those who chose God were granted the beatific vision (or the perfect goodness of God/heaven that I wrote about earlier).
Personally, my understanding of the test is that the angels were given sufficient knowledge of reality and made their choice based on that. It didn’t involve thinking in the way a human thinks or plans (they’re purely spiritual beings, they don’t need to deal with restrictions like a material brain needing to process information), they simply know and will their choices immediately. But this second paragraph is based on my knowledge of Thomas Aquinas’ opinions, and the Church hasn’t been formally specific on how they were tested.
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STT
Guest
So God is responsible for Evil, He didn’t share beatific vision.
How could you possibly think if there is no process in a material being?
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ANV
Guest
So they had the choice to reject while in heaven, while humans wouldn’t have a such a choice. Where is the free will then?
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Wesrock
Guest
Evil is not outside God’s control. But the angels were not coerced into committing evil. The angels had responsibility and control over the choices they made, and God is responsible for permitting them to choose to follow Him or not.
They know. They don’t think. Not in the discursive manner we do, anyway.
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STT
Guest
That doesn’t resolve the problem of evil. God is perfect therefore He cannot commit evil.
God is responsible for evil. It is like making a bomb and putting it in public knowing that it is going to hurt.
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Gorgias
Guest
You’re asking a theological question, then?
OK: the Catholic Church would answer that evil enters into the world with the sin of the first humans. We all inherit, through them, a number of things that speak to that imperfection, including concupiscence (i.e., the tendency to sin)
No. “Beatific Vision” is a term defined by the Catholic Church as “the contemplation of God in his heavenly glory.”
No. God is not the author of evil.
One way to define evil is as the “absence of good.” God is all-good; He is neither evil nor the cause of evil.
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Gorgias
Guest
What does being “in” a place mean, for a non-physical being?
They are, after all, without physical extension, so they are never “in” any one particular place.
To your question, angels existed, but without the fullness of the Beatific Vision. However, they possessed all knowledge. Having all knowledge, they had the choice: love God or not. Since they were perfect in knowledge, there was no changing their minds: once they decided, their decision stands for eternity.
Those who decided to love God were granted the Beatific Vision. Those who chose not to love God were allowed to exist without the Beatific Vision.
There’s no “middle state” of the kind that you’re proposing (i.e., “in heaven but still waffling”).
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ANV
Guest
But the devil did, didn’t he?
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ANV
Guest
I thought he did.
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STT
Guest
Why didn’t God give Beatific Vision to Angels? It is like making a bomb and put it in public knowing the fact that it will eventually explode.
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