What happens to free will in Heaven?

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STT said:
Why didn’t God give Beatific Vision to Angels? It is like making a bomb and put it in public knowing the fact that it will eventually explode.
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The Beatific Vision is not a gift but a reward for love.
 
ANV said:
I thought he did.
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St. Thomas Aquinas wrote in Summa Theologiae, First Part:

Question 62. The perfection of the angels in the order of grace and of glory
Article 1. Whether the angels were created in beatitude?“But the angels did not have from the beginning of their creation that ultimate beatitude which is beyond the power of nature; because such beatitude is no part of their nature, but its end; and consequently they ought not to have it immediately from the beginning.”

newadvent.org/summa/1062.htm#article1
 
Vico said:
St. Thomas Aquinas wrote in Summa Theologiae, First Part:

Question 62. The perfection of the angels in the order of grace and of glory
Article 1. Whether the angels were created in beatitude?“But the angels did not have from the beginning of their creation that ultimate beatitude which is beyond the power of nature; because such beatitude is no part of their nature, but its end; and consequently they ought not to have it immediately from the beginning.”

newadvent.org/summa/1062.htm#article1
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Doesn’t that indicate that beatitude contradicts the free will?
 
ANV said:
So beatitude wasn’t there from the beginning with angels and adam and eve ?
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Not ultimate beatitude. From Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, by Ludwig Ott, p. 118:

The angels were subjected to a moral testing. (Sent. Certa. as regards the fallen angels, Sent. communis as regards the good.)

They were first in a state of pilgrimage (in statu viae), in which they, through their free co-operation, with grace were required to merit (in statu termini) the Beatific Vision of God. The good angels, who passed the test, entered as a. reward therefor into the blessedness of heaven (Mt.18, 10; Tob. 12, I5; Hebr. 12, 22: Apoc. S, II; 7, II), while the bad angels, Who did not pass the test, fell under the ban of eternal damnation (2 Peter 2, 4 ; Jud. 6).
 
ANV said:
🤷
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Nothing. You have made your choice and now it is superabundantly proven to be true and immensely rewarded and constantly reinforced by the presence of God. No evil can get in there. What were you expecting?
 
STT said:
God is responsible for evil for not offering Beatific Vision as a gift.
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By that standard, the police department is responsible for crime, for not putting us all in handcuffs in advance. :rolleyes:
 
ericc said:
What kind of logic is that? Can you rephrase it?
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Would evil ever happen if Adam and Eve are given Beatific Vision? No. So the problem of evil is resolved. God knew that Adam and Eve eventually commit evil yet He created them. So the only way for God to prevent evil was to give Beatific Vision which He didn’t therefore He is responsible for evil.
 
STT said:
Would evil ever happen if Adam and Eve are given Beatific Vision? No. So the problem of evil is resolved. God knew that Adam and Eve eventually commit evil yet He created them. So the only way for God to prevent evil was to give Beatific Vision which He didn’t therefore He is responsible for evil.
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Bad logic. The only way to stop car accidents is not to have cars.

Would evil ever happen if one never chooses to do evil is the proper question. Not if I am given a “widget” that does not allow/enable me to do evil. Having the “widget” does not allow me to exercise my freewill to choose to love/reject because the widget does not contain that choice, the widget is the result of the post-choice, the end of the quest, the final reward. The widget contains a condition of sinlessness among other things, not a condition of choice as that choice was a pre-condition of obtaining that widget.
 
STT said:
Is Beatific Vision a handcuff? Is Heaven a jail?
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No, but that doesn’t matter in the context of your claim. Your claim is that, since God doesn’t actively prevent sin, He is responsible for it.

That’s not correct – and that’s why my analogy is relevant. You’re asking for God to be a policeman, and worse than that, to proactively prevent sin (rather than ask us to not sin out of love for Him).
 
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ericc said:
Bad logic. The only way to stop car accidents is not to have cars.
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Apparently God could make a car which could not have accidents, by sharing Beatific Vision, so the logic follows.
ericc said:
Would evil ever happen if one never chooses to do evil is the proper question.
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Of course not. The problem is that we are incapable of avoiding evil always.
 
STT said:
Apparently God could make a car which could not have accidents, by sharing Beatific Vision, so the logic follows.
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You mean God could make robots that don’t sin? Yes he could. But he didn’t intend to make robots. He intend to create beings with freewill to choose and love. Beatific Vision is the reward not the panacea.
STT said:
Of course not. The problem is that we are incapable of avoiding evil always.
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No one is claiming perfect immunity from evil. Like any malady, there are prescribed medicine and cures and spiritual health boosters to help you overcome bad spiritual health. As with lifestyles, a healthy spiritual lifestyles promote well being, good living, harmony and closeness with our spiritual family as well as neighbours.
 
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ericc said:
You mean God could make robots that don’t sin? Yes he could. But he didn’t intend to make robots. He intend to create beings with freewill to choose and love. Beatific Vision is the reward not the panacea.
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God is capable of doing things and He is not a robot, unless you claim otherwise. We could also be Godly, avoiding evil, still able to decide in situations. So your analogy of robot doesn’t really cut.
 
STT said:
God is capable of doing things and He is not a robot, unless you claim otherwise. We could also be Godly, avoiding evil, still able to decide in situations. So your analogy of robot doesn’t really cut.
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You are really not responding to what I wrote. I never said God is a robot. Your suggestion is that God should create beings that are predetermined not capable of doing evil (via possession of some widget) aka robots. I said God intended to create beings that can freely choose to love and reject.

I am quite aware of the art of dodging. I think I have wrote enough for you to ponder. Let us put our minds some where else and move on.
 
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