What happens when you "win"?

[Matthew_Light]

The other is this: “If you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free" John 8:32 Why would we want to withhold the truth from anyone? There are countless examples of persons who become Catholic later in life and wonder why no one had the courage or interest to share the faith with them earlier.

What does this admirable sentiment have to do with what I was saying about all the threads attacking Muhammad as being a pedophile and Joseph Smith as being an adulterous lecher?

There is an enormous difference between praising Christ and the Catholic Church, and reviling someone else’s faith.

 

[KjetilK]

You can’t tell me you haven’t noticed the continuous threads attacking Joseph Smith and Muhammad here, can you?

My point is that your questiuon is formulated in a way that makes it impossible to answer.

And I have to say that I do not really see any major difference between a Mormon - believing in a former human ‘alien-god’ who impregnates women - and an atheist - NOT believing in a former human ‘alien-god’ who impregnates women. In that scenario, being atheist is indeed better, and it could perhaps be a ‘purification.’

 

[Matthew_Light]

My point is that your questiuon is formulated in a way that makes it impossible to answer.

And I have to say that I do not really see any major difference between a Mormon - believing in a former human ‘alien-god’ who impregnates women - and an atheist - NOT believing in a former human ‘alien-god’ who impregnates women. In that scenario, being atheist is indeed better, and it could perhaps be a ‘purification.’

So, you think it is a good idea to destroy the houses of faith that Mormons live in then?

I disagree. I think that Mormons have good values regarding marriage, family, use of drugs and alcohol, sexual behavior and in many other areas.

I wouldn’t dream of attacking someone’s Mormon beliefs hoping that they would lose their religious faith because I see my religious beliefs as “right” and theirs as “wrong”.

 

[KjetilK]

So, you think it is a good idea to destroy the houses of faith that Mormons live in then?

I disagree. I think that Mormons have good values regarding marriage, family, use of drugs and alcohol, sexual behavior and in many other areas.

I wouldn’t dream of attacking someone’s Mormon beliefs hoping that they would lose their religious faith because I see my religious beliefs as “right” and theirs as “wrong”.

So you are saying, then, that atheists necessarily have bad values regarding marriage, family, use of drugs and alcohol, sexual behavior and in many other areas, and that truth is relative?

Remember that mormons aren’t any more Christians than atheists, hindus, buddhists or new agers.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Peanuts wrote a book about this:

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[Matthew_Light]

So you are saying, then, that atheists necessarily have bad values regarding marriage, family, use of drugs and alcohol, sexual behavior and in many other areas, and that truth is relative?

I think that, on average, Mormon values regarding those matters are better for society.

For example, Mormons reproduce themselves, while atheists have approximately half the number of children required to maintain a stable population level.

I believe that the sexual revolution, rejected by Mormons (and, of course, the Catholic Church), is, on the whole, destructive to society. Most atheists embrace the sexual revolution.

Remember that mormons aren’t any more Christians than atheists, hindus, buddhists or new agers.

Mormons self-identify as Christian. I am inclined to be charitable towards an individual or group’s self identification of beliefs.

 

[Denise1957]

I see a lot of threads here and on various Christian websites attacking some people’s religious beliefs. Certain churches, denominations and religions are often “piled on”, such as Islam, Mormonism, the Jehovah’s Witnesses etc.

My question for those who attack these faiths - what is your goal?

It seems to me that a majority of people from many of these more controversial churches who are “deconverted” end up walking away from God and religion entirely. And they tend to turn their back completely on all religious conceptions of morality around sexual behavior, etc.

Is it better for someone to believe in God but have certain errors in their religious beliefs, or to become strident opponents of all religion and live according to materialistic, sensualist values?

It depends on what you mean by “attack” when it comes to pointing out the faults of other religions or faiths. If we attack other religions or faiths in an uncharitable manner, then it can be off-putting. We should endeavor to point out the faults (or problems) with other regions with charity, but this can be difficult to do. We should strive for it, though. I’m not very consistent in being charitable when I point out the faults or problems with other faiths, but I’m trying to be better. We can look to the saints for an example of how to debate. St. Dominic, for example, believed that we should not be heavy-handed when debating or trying to convince others of Truth. It’s not an easy thing to do, though! I don’t think that the goal of debate should really be to “win.” We should simply state the Truth, point out errors, and hope that it has a good effect.

 

[steido01]

Mormons self-identify as Christian. I am inclined to be charitable towards an individual or group’s self identification of beliefs.

Generally, I agree with this sentiment. Generally. But not in this case. Find one major Christian communion that considers Mormonism to be Christian.

 

[Randy_Carson]

You can’t tell me you haven’t noticed the continuous threads attacking Joseph Smith and Muhammad here, can you?

And the disproportionate number of Baha’i threads…

 

[Randy_Carson]

So, you think it is a good idea to destroy the houses of faith that Mormons live in then?

I disagree. I think that Mormons have good values regarding marriage, family, use of drugs and alcohol, sexual behavior and in many other areas.

I wouldn’t dream of attacking someone’s Mormon beliefs hoping that they would lose their religious faith because I see my religious beliefs as “right” and theirs as “wrong”.

“The road to hell is paved with good intentions” as the saying goes.

I’d rather tear down a false sense of well-being than to allow someone go to hell forever because they never actually searched for the truth of the Gospel. Your assumption, and it is blatantly erroneous, is that God does not or will not reach out to the person who has been freed from the prison of false ideas. I think He does, because He desires that all be saved.

But you are a Baha’i, a member of man-made, syncretist religion that sees all religions as being one, so of course it makes no real difference to you what someone believes. In which case, why bother?

This is nuts.

Baha’u’llah was a false prophet, and his teachings need to be demolished just as much as those of the Mormon or the Scientology cultists.

2 Corinthians 10:5
“We destroy arguments and every proud obstacle to the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ.”

But if you think I’m wrong, I encourage you to pick up the Catechism of the Catholic Church, choose a section that you disagree with and then show me, from my own scriptures and not the writings of your “prophet”, why Catholicism is inconsistent with the facts of the Bible, history and logic.

May the best apologist win.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Mormons self-identify as Christian.

So did the Arians, the Nestorians, the Donatists…

You get the idea.

I am inclined to be charitable towards an individual or group’s self identification of beliefs.

Of course you do. Orthodox Christian theology means nothing to someone who follows a false “manifestation” of God, so why should it matter to you how anyone “identifies”?

 

[Matthew_Light]

And the disproportionate number of Baha’i threads…

The Baha’i threads are a LOT more charitable than the others. I’m not complaining, anyway.

 

[Matthew_Light]

So did the Arians, the Nestorians, the Donatists…

You get the idea.

We aren’t living in 400 AD in the Roman Empire anymore, as Pope Francis understands.

Of course you do. Orthodox Christian theology means nothing to someone who follows a false “manifestation” of God, so why should it matter to you how anyone “identifies”?

The fruit of the spirit is charity…

 

[Randy_Carson]

The Baha’i threads are a LOT more charitable than the others. I’m not complaining, anyway.

No, I’m the one complaining about you and three or four other Baha’i using the VERY generous rules of this board to promote your otherwise obscure religion.

I get that you need to promote yourselves somehow, but it’s tiresome going through thread after thread about this guy:

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Mírzá Ḥusayn-`Alí Núrí

 

[Matthew_Light]

No, I’m the one complaining about you and three or four other Baha’i using the VERY generous rules of this board to promote your otherwise obscure religion.

Perhaps you can show me any example where I have done this?

 

[Randy_Carson]

The fruit of the spirit is charity…

Charity and gentleness is the hard part, but correcting must be done:

2 Timothy 2:24-26
24 And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25 Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

The Devil holds many captive to false prophets, Matthew. :sad_yes:

 

[Matthew_Light]

No, I’m the one complaining about you and three or four other Baha’i using the VERY generous rules of this board to promote your otherwise obscure religion.

I get that you need to promote yourselves somehow, but it’s tiresome going through thread after thread about this guy:

[photo removed]

Also, you are certainly the one who is making this thread be about the Baha’i Faith. I never mentioned it, and had no intention of doing so.

BTW many Baha’is consider it disrespectful to post pictures of Baha’u’llah in a pedestrian context, so perhaps in the future you would refrain from doing it, in the interest of respect and charity.

 

[Matthew_Light]

The Devil holds many captive to false prophets, Matthew. :sad_yes:

Yes, he does.

 

[Matthew_Light]

“The road to hell is paved with good intentions” as the saying goes.

I’d rather tear down a false sense of well-being than to allow someone go to hell forever because they never actually searched for the truth of the Gospel. Your assumption, and it is blatantly erroneous, is that God does not or will not reach out to the person who has been freed from the prison of false ideas. I think He does, because He desires that all be saved.

But you are a Baha’i, a member of man-made, syncretist religion that sees all religions as being one, so of course it makes no real difference to you what someone believes. In which case, why bother?

This is nuts.

Baha’u’llah was a false prophet, and his teachings need to be demolished just as much as those of the Mormon or the Scientology cultists.
2 Corinthians 10:5
“We destroy arguments and every proud obstacle to the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ.”
But if you think I’m wrong, I encourage you to pick up the Catechism of the Catholic Church, choose a section that you disagree with and then show me, from my own scriptures and not the writings of your “prophet”, why Catholicism is inconsistent with the facts of the Bible, history and logic.

May the best apologist win.

I’m not here to promote my religion over yours, or try to convert people into becoming Baha’is.

I’m here to work towards a world where people of different religions, beliefs, philosophies can learn to treat each other with - at least - tolerance, preferably respect and love.

That is why I participate on this forum with my Catholic brothers and sisters. Not because I want to get converts.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Also, you are certainly the one who is making this thread be about the Baha’i Faith. I never mentioned it, and had no intention of doing so.

The reason your faith has come up is because your OP questions the value of apologetics and theological debate. You question the value of these things because your religion is syncretistic.

Additionally, your presumption is that the person who has the ideas about their false religion uprooted winds up worse than before. I believe that person is freed from bondage to Satan who is the Father of Lies.

BTW many Baha’is consider it disrespectful to post pictures of Baha’u’llah in a pedestrian context, so perhaps in the future you would refrain from doing it, in the interest of respect and charity.

Yes, I know. However, Mr. Nuri sat with a photographer willingly, and he’s just a man - not God. No one sits in front of a camera without expecting their photograph to be seen by others. I’m honoring his wish to be seen.

Matthew, this is a Catholic forum, and I will not show Mr. Nuri, a false prophet, respect because no one who leads others astray is worthy of it. I will treat you with respect, but I will not honor someone who I do not believe deserves to be honored.

And this is a two-way street, btw. I do not insist that Baptists refer to Pope Francis as the “Holy Father” since in their understanding, God alone is holy. I’m totally okay with the idea that if and when they are ready to show respect to the Bishop of Rome, they will. Until then, there is no sense in me getting worked up over it.