What happens when you "win"?

[Randy_Carson]

I’m not here to promote my religion over yours, or try to convert people into becoming Baha’is.

I’m here to work towards a world where people of different religions, beliefs, philosophies can learn to treat each other with - at least - tolerance, preferably respect and love.

That is why I participate on this forum with my Catholic brothers and sisters. Not because I want to get converts.

That sounds great. But what you want, ultimately, is not true unity, but merely “getting along” or tolerating one another because at the end of the day, all religions are the same.

This is a false notion, and it must be exposed and rebuked whenever it appears.

 

[iepuras]

I think that, on average, Mormon values regarding those matters are better for society.

For example, Mormons reproduce themselves, while atheists have approximately half the number of children required to maintain a stable population level.

I believe that the sexual revolution, rejected by Mormons (and, of course, the Catholic Church), is, on the whole, destructive to society. Most atheists embrace the sexual revolution.

Mormons self-identify as Christian. I am inclined to be charitable towards an individual or group’s self identification of beliefs.

If you think this, then you really don’t know much about Mormonism or its history and what has been taught in the Mormon church from its founding to today. Oh, and Mormons are starting to embrace the sexual revolution when it comes to contraception and even abortion in limited circumstances.

While Mormon people, in general, are good, moral people doing the best they can, Mormonism itself is a damaging belief system. It is abusive to the souls of its members. I know because I was born and raised Mormon. It has inconsistent and illogical teachings. Many of its teachings are quite damaging.

The LDS church teaches that it is the One and Only True Church of God and all others are false. It is also anti-Catholic, although the anti-Catholic rhetoric has toned down in recent decades. It is no surprise that your ex-Mormon co-worker is atheist and very anti-Mormon and anti-Catholic. His soul was damaged by the teachings of the LDS church. He probably feels (or has felt) a lot of anger. He very likely may have lost most, if not all, of the relationships that he valued the most simply because of his disaffection with Mormonism. Many ex-Mormons are not trusting of religion or God at all. Your co-worker probably also subconsciously still accepts the LDS belief that all other churches are false.

Do you think it is ok for a church to not be entirely forthcoming about its teachings and history? Do you know what it feels like to learn that everything you were taught growing up was not true? I do. It is hell. I felt betrayed and lost. Yes, I was angry. Sometimes I still feel angry when I hear of how others were treated poorly in the LDS church. I made it out of the LDS church relatively unscathed, but I still lost a lot and have many things to work through and overcome. I tried very hard to be respectful of my LDS family, but I am currently estranged from most of them because of their emotional abuse and attempts to control and manipulate me. I lost most of my friends. The LDS friends I still have are on their own journeys that will likely lead to them leaving the LDS church too. Out of respect for them and their own faith journey, I only talk about my reasons for leaving Mormonism when they ask.

I suggest reading the stories of ex-Mormons to get a better perspective of what Mormonism does to its adherents, why they leave and the fallout of leaving. There are thousands of stories out there, including here on CAF.

 

[Matthew_Light]

That sounds great. But what you want, ultimately, is not true unity, but merely “getting along” or tolerating one another because at the end of the day, all religions are the same.

This is a false notion, and it must be exposed and rebuked whenever it appears.

Real unity is not everyone believing the same thing.

Real unity is everyone seeing and treating treating one another as God’s children.

We are not going to have uniformity of belief. The question is - will we use differences in beliefs to attack those of different beliefs, or can we learn to accept differences in beliefs as being acceptable and learn to respect others and their beliefs.

I think I stand with Pope Francis on what is needed in this age.

 

[Andre1000]

Galatians 1:8

which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

The Mormons are just doing that. Better be atheist than this, because many atheist have very high morals too, and some Christians are horrible people. People are good and bad in every religion or non religion.

 

[Matthew_Light]

Do you think it is ok for a church to not be entirely forthcoming about its teachings and history? Do you know what it feels like to learn that everything you were taught growing up was not true? I do. It is hell. I felt betrayed and lost.

I am very familiar with the history of the Mormon faith and all of its twists and turns. Including some very negative stuff.

I’m glad you are in a much better place religiously and spiritually.

I still don’t think attacking other people’s religion is the answer.

When I look at the Mormon church today, I see something a lot, lot better than it was 40 years ago, 100 years ago, or 190 years ago.

As human beings, we have to learn to accept diversity of beliefs, and to appreciate the positive things that different religions do (while not ignoring negative practices and teachings, such as racism and the like).

 

[Matthew_Light]

You question the value of these things because your religion is syncretistic.

sigh

Why are you turning this into a thread about the Baha’i Faith? Which is not syncretistic anyway.

I really don’t want to spend my time here defending my religion and beliefs. This thread is about how to approach people of other beliefs.

It is perfectly legitimate to talk about the truths of the Catholic faith - and that does not require burning down the houses of belief that others live in!

 

[Techno2000]

Also, you are certainly the one who is making this thread be about the Baha’i Faith. I never mentioned it, and had no intention of doing so.

BTW many Baha’is consider it disrespectful to post pictures of Baha’u’llah in a pedestrian context, so perhaps in the future you would refrain from doing it, in the interest of respect and charity.

So, the second coming of Jesus came and went, and we can’t even get a picture of him ?

 

[iepuras]

I still don’t think attacking other people’s religion is the answer.

Is stating the truth attacking?

When I look at the Mormon church today, I see something a lot, lot better than it was 40 years ago, 100 years ago, or 190 years ago.

While some things may appear better than they were earlier in LDS history, there are certain doctrines that are held onto that are still damaging.

The doctrine of plural marriage is one example. While the LDS church technically no longer practices polygyny, it is still very much a doctrine of the church. That doctrine is still damaging and abusive to the women of the LDS church. It is just damaging and abusive in a different way. Women are still treated unequally. The doctrine of polygamy itself is damaging to the self-esteem of LDS women. It is the 900 lb gorilla in the room that every LDS woman ignores. Men can be sealed to more than one woman in the temple. I even know LDS men are are sealed to more than one living woman in the temple, making them polygamists. (Of course, these men are civilly divorced from their first wives, but according to LDS belief, the woman is still his eternal wife.)

The LDS plan of salvation appears nice and happy on the surface, but can also be quite damaging. LDS boys and girls are raised to believe that they are all supposed to grow up, get married in the temple and have children. All Mormons are expected to do everything they can to fit in that box. Do you know how single women in the LDS church feel when no LDS man will give them the time of day? What about men who are attracted to other men and feel that they need to marry a woman and have children in order to be “saved”? What about the children of those unions when the man decides to abandon them because he can no longer pretend to be heterosexual?

Granted, older men are no longer marrying teenagers, but that doesn’t mean the doctrine of polygyny and the pressure to marry are still not damaging.

As human beings, we have to learn to accept diversity of beliefs, and to appreciate the positive things that different religions do (while not ignoring negative practices and teachings, such as racism and the like).

Honestly, I found very little positive from being born and raised Mormon. It damaged me in so many ways, I don’t think the damage will ever be 100% healed. Only by the grace of God am I in a good place right now but I paid a price to follow my conscience. I believe in God despite my prior Mormon faith, not because of it. I have LDS friends who admit they find certain doctrines to be damaging but feel they cannot question and fear trying to look behind the curtain. I found that in Mormonism, the negatives far outweighed any of the positives. I have a live and let live attitude. I am far from being an outspoken ex-Mormon. I have been out for 2 years but have kept it fairly quiet. However, I don’t think I should be required to be silent about the truth.

 

[Matthew_Light]

I am far from being an outspoken ex-Mormon. I have been out for 2 years but have kept it fairly quiet. However, I don’t think I should be required to be silent about the truth.

I would never try to silence an ex-Mormon who was hurt by the experience.

I know there is legitimate pain there.

I recognize that the Mormon faith is far from perfect.

It sounds like you have found a healing spiritual home in the Catholic Church. And that is perfect!

 

[KjetilK]

Mormons don’t even believe in God. They believe in some quasi-human celestial being who impregnates women. I’ll take an atheist over that any day.

 

[Matthew_Light]

Mormons don’t even believe in God. They believe in some quasi-human celestial being who impregnates women. I’ll take an atheist over that any day.

Another name for “Faith” is “Hope”.

A lot of formerly religious people have had all their hopes crushed.

Sometimes, they just give up.

I’ve done a lot of suicide counseling. You might or might not be surprised how many of them are formerly religious people whose spiritual hope and faith was crushed.

Please think about what happens to people when you destroy their spiritual home, because you see the faults and flaws in it. Sometimes those people just give up on everything.

 

[cheezey]

My personal opinion is that people who bash religion, any religion are deeply unhappy people. This is different form someone who has decided it’s not for them.
People who feel the need to tear down another’s beliefs (assuming that the religion does not advocate harmful things) are damaged. They want a place to lay blame. They want to have someone to hate. Someone to blame for their lack of happiness, success, contentment, historical issues, whatever. It’s easy to blame religion. Faith doesn’t talk back. Faith, on it’s own, is fairly passive and easy to attack. Just argue your point, and you’re off and running.
God never forces Himself on anyone. He waits.
But the believers? Open season. The point is:
None of us should take the bait. Nothing foils this hatred, or causes a heart to turn toward God quicker than kindness. Once people see a true believer, or encounter a true child of God, they begin to realize that it’s not God that is the problem.
Sometimes the hardest thing to do is to realize when we have been wrong, harsh, or hard.

Just my 2 cents.

:clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping:

 

[Matthew_Light]

My personal opinion is that people who bash religion, any religion are deeply unhappy people. This is different form someone who has decided it’s not for them.
People who feel the need to tear down another’s beliefs (assuming that the religion does not advocate harmful things) are damaged. They want a place to lay blame. They want to have someone to hate. Someone to blame for their lack of happiness, success, contentment, historical issues, whatever. It’s easy to blame religion. Faith doesn’t talk back. Faith, on it’s own, is fairly passive and easy to attack. Just argue your point, and you’re off and running.
God never forces Himself on anyone. He waits.
But the believers? Open season. The point is:
None of us should take the bait. Nothing foils this hatred, or causes a heart to turn toward God quicker than kindness. Once people see a true believer, or encounter a true child of God, they begin to realize that it’s not God that is the problem.
Sometimes the hardest thing to do is to realize when we have been wrong, harsh, or hard.

Just my 2 cents.

Thank you!

!

 

[LaVieDevote]

It seems to me that a majority of people from many of these more controversial churches who are “deconverted” end up walking away from God and religion entirely. And they tend to turn their back completely on all religious conceptions of morality around sexual behavior,

Who says that has any correlation to whether or not people of more mainstream beliefs try to challenge them on their beliefs? It could just as easily be due to the insular, esoteric nature of those "controversial churches’ to which you refer. Perhaps a Mormon who left Mormonism becomes disillusioned with God and organized religion because they have been shunned by their former friends and family for doing so. Maybe it’s the challenge from people of their own community (when they begin to express concerns or doubts contrary to that community’s teaching) that turns them away rather than those from other faith communities.

If we remove influence from outside religions as the impetus, then your equation holds no merit. If the reason for leaving a religion comes more from internal strife (and I tend to think it does) than external pressure, then people will leave regardless of whether or not someone challenges their beliefs.

I don’t believe that theological debate (without ad-hominem attacks) is off limits. If you have a faith system, you need to be prepared to defend it, and if constantly defending it eventually drives you away from it, then the core problem is not with those who tested your theological premises. It’s either with your faith system itself or with your ability to believe in it.

 

[AbideWithMe]

Another name for “Faith” is “Hope”.

A lot of formerly religious people have had all their hopes crushed.

Sometimes, they just give up.

I’ve done a lot of suicide counseling. You might or might not be surprised how many of them are formerly religious people whose spiritual hope and faith was crushed.

Please think about what happens to people when you destroy their spiritual home, because you see the faults and flaws in it. Sometimes those people just give up on everything.

I’ve seen exactly this kind of thing myself. I think for those on this thread who have not seen this happen to people, they are just not able to understand why some of us are concerned at seeing the amount of aggressive undermining/destructive/tear someone else’s house down type of apologetics on the internet, as opposed to “city on a hill”/show the beauty of your faith sort of religious living.

I’ve seen too much; I’ve seen people’s hearts break and never recover. Lord have mercy on these bruised reeds and barely smoldering wicks.

 

[iepuras]

Mormons don’t even believe in God. They believe in some quasi-human celestial being who impregnates women. I’ll take an atheist over that any day.

Matthew, believing Mormons generally ignore comments like the one quoted above.

Have you ever talked to your ex-Mormon co-worker about why he left the LDS church? I would bet that it had nothing to do with “anti-Mormon” comments like the one above.

All the ex-Mormons I have come into contact with who left over doctrinal and historical issues, left because of the writings and teachings of LDS prophets and other leaders. They dug deep into the history and doctrine. They compared that to what they were taught in official LDS teaching manuals. They found inconsistencies, illogic and problems within Mormonism itself.

Who needs to look at “anti-Mormon” websites when a Mormon can simply read about these issues on the website of the LDS church?

mormonnewsroom.org/article/church-provides-context-gospel-topics-pages

Another name for “Faith” is “Hope”.

A lot of formerly religious people have had all their hopes crushed.

Sometimes, they just give up.

I’ve done a lot of suicide counseling. You might or might not be surprised how many of them are formerly religious people whose spiritual hope and faith was crushed.

Please think about what happens to people when you destroy their spiritual home, because you see the faults and flaws in it. Sometimes those people just give up on everything.

God bless you for the work you do with suicide counseling. At times I participate in an ex-Mormon forum. It is terrible to see what happens to people when their foundation of faith is destroyed. I am not surprised in the least by what you stated.

However, I do not see that the problem is those who speak the truth of Mormonism (or any other problematic faith tradition). The problem lies with the problematic faith tradition (and the false prophet) itself.

When it comes to Mormons, many of them refuse to listen to anything that is remotely critical that may cause them to question their faith. Not one member of my Mormon family bothered to ask me why I left. None of my remaining Mormon friends want to know either. One specifically told me that while she is curious to know, she doesn’t want to ask because it may damage her testimony. They don’t even want to be put in a position where they may have to defend their faith. I think that speaks volumes, and it is rather sad.

While it is sad to see so many ex-Mormons suffer for leaving the faith, the ones I have met are overwhelming glad they went through the pain and suffering of leaving the LDS church because they would rather live an authentic life than live a lie. There are many ex-Mormons who suffer with anger and depression after they leave. However, there are also many who do their suffering while within the LDS church. Leaving is then liberating and the lifting of a burden. The depression and anxiety disappears! For me, leaving the LDS church was liberating. Any suffering related to being estranged from family and so-called friends is nothing compared to the liberation of my soul.

 

[iepuras]

Who says that has any correlation to whether or not people of more mainstream beliefs try to challenge them on their beliefs? It could just as easily be due to the insular, esoteric nature of those "controversial churches’ to which you refer. Perhaps a Mormon who left Mormonism becomes disillusioned with God and organized religion because they have been shunned by their former friends and family for doing so. Maybe it’s the challenge from people of their own community (when they begin to express concerns or doubts contrary to that community’s teaching) that turns them away rather than those from other faith communities.

If we remove influence from outside religions as the impetus, then your equation holds no merit. If the reason for leaving a religion comes more from internal strife (and I tend to think it does) than external pressure, then people will leave regardless of whether or not someone challenges their beliefs.

I don’t believe that theological debate (without ad-hominem attacks) is off limits. If you have a faith system, you need to be prepared to defend it, and if constantly defending it eventually drives you away from it, then the core problem is not with those who tested your theological premises. It’s either with your faith system itself or with your ability to believe in it.

 

[Techno2000]

I’ve seen exactly this kind of thing myself. I think for those on this thread who have not seen this happen to people, they are just not able to understand why some of us are concerned at seeing the amount of aggressive undermining/destructive/tear someone else’s house down type of apologetics on the internet, as opposed to “city on a hill”/show the beauty of your faith sort of religious living.

I’ve seen too much; I’ve seen people’s hearts break and never recover. Lord have mercy on these bruised reeds and barely smoldering wicks.

http://media.chick.com/tractimages67491/0074/0074_13.gif
Jack chick

 

[Matthew_Light]

Ah, yes, Jack Chick.

 

[KjetilK]

Mormons don’t even believe in God. They believe in some quasi-human celestial being who impregnates women. I’ll take an atheist over that any day.

Matthew, believing Mormons generally ignore comments like the one quoted above.

What I wrote is an accurate summary of the Mormon view of God.

They explicitly deny classical theism and hold that god is a created being who was elevated to ‘godhood.’