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OneTrueCathApos
Guest
Well if you truly knew the history of the church Christ founded, you’d still be in it!
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sambos671
Guest
That is an entirely untrue statement. Just because you may know something doesn’t mean you agree with it. For instance I could say that the premise of the Catholic Church is entirely wrong because 1) Jesus was a Jew and speaking on Jewish terms. 2) Christianity is wrong because it left Judaism and more so because it has more Greek influence. 3) Jesus was not the Messiah and never claimed it just ambiguous statements regarding what Pilate or the Sanhedrin said.
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DCD
Guest
I was not trying to be combative. Do you always carry on conversations in this manner?You might watch the condescention. It seriously detracts from an otherwise rather informative post. We can all benefit from what you presented, but your opening was unkind and I suspect you realize that. If you really wish to inform, then you can be sure many of us are eager to learn. I learn new things every single day, and am most happy that that is true.
You post was incorrect. We have not come to “now participate.” We always have. I don’t know what basis you had for claiming that non-Catholics don’t know about the practice. Anecdotal information is not evidence of what you asserted. It merely means you have spoken to one or two and they didn’t know. Many Catholics might not be able to explain the process very well either.
Words have meaning and power. If you wish to persuade, then attacking is not usually a good way to make a point. I have no idea what the word bitter would be used. What would I have to be bitter about? It makes no sense whatsoever.
Bemused might be a better chose, by your assumptions.
You stated you “use” to be Catholic. If you have been baptized into the Catholic Church you are Catholic forever. Baptism leaves an indelible mark on a person it can never be removed. You are a Catholic. The question to be answered is are you a heretic or apostate? Before you think I lack charity. Let me qualify my remarks. If you are invincibely ignorant then you are neither.
If you want to discuss if protestants have always participated in Lent or Ash Wednesday I would be happy.
Peace,
David
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LutheranDK
Guest
Well, this might come as a shock to some in here (
), but I do observe The Fast (as the Danish term would translate into English). I also went to Ash Wednesday-service that started The Fast.As for how Lent started, I don’t know. And I don’t know if you’re looking for any answer in particular to the last question. I intend to try to use The Fast to try to come closer to God in the period leading up to Easter.
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SpiritMeadow
Guest
Many here do, and I think you have been a good example of Roman Catholicism, more in line with other Catholics I have known in my life and in my parishes when I was RCC myself.
However, when people:
- Tell you you are unknowledgable about history etc because you don’t choose to be RCC that is disrepectful. Especially when the poster has absolutely no idea what my education in Church history or religion is.
- When people claim that all Protestants including all Anglicans are going to hell–yes that has occurred her, or their souls are lost, or their priests or ministers are without authority and their Eucharist is wasted, that is disrepectful.
- When people claim that non-RCC are just not smart enough or educated enough and when they become that they will surely become RCC adherents. This denies the plain facts of millions of people who are demonstrably brighter and more educated than either themselves or myself for that matter, and chose either another faith tradition or no faith. That is disrespectful.
What occurs on this forum is unseemly by both sides. Mature RCC leaders and mature Protestant leaders are able to work together, exploring those areas where we can meet. There is not rancor and name calling. Nobody suggests that either side is not beloved by God and under Jesus salvific grace. Only here ( and certainly on other such forums) do we find this. I guess I expected better from a site run by as I understand it clergy itself. Somebody ought to police it. As one poster said very clearly, Protestants must be charitable and not bash the RCC but they as RCC are not required to reciprocate because it is a RCC site. Imagine such a statement!
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SpiritMeadow
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I know you believe what your Church teaches. I respect that, and I can’t seem to get that across to you. I have no anger toward your Church whatsoever. But you have absolutely no idea what training I have in the RCC faith. NONE. And while it is not a lot considering the clergy, I am rather far advanced as concerns the laity. I spent many a long afternoon in the seminary library where I have full priviledges some years ago. I studied a fair amount of theology and bibical exegesis. I have read more than a couple histories of the RCC.
You cannot mean that anyone who doesn’t agree with you is simply not educated properly. That is simply not rational. If it were so, then there would be no one but the RCC around the globe, since this simple solution would be apparent.
The fact is that people do not all agree on how the scriptures or history can be interpreted. Other people read the exact things you do and explain it much differently. That doesn’t make then wrong and you right by definition. Each person must decide for themselves as you did when you chose to accept RCC teachings as valid as far as you were concerned.
I bless your beliefs and honor them. I ask only that you remember that others have a right to believe differently and are owed the respect that you wish for yourself. It hopefully is not necessary to your faith in your church that your attempt to make your contempt for everyone else’s faith tradition in order to feel secure.
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SpiritMeadow
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That statement is simply not rational as I have explained. If you took that sylogism to ANY trained rhetorician they would laugh.
What you really mean, is this:
If you truly knew the history of the RCC and BELIEVED IT TO BE AS I BELIEVE IT, you would be a RCC.
You are failing to see that it is your interpretation of the history that you find compelling. Other people read the same exact words and interpret them differently. You have no corner on correct interpretation other than that you accept what the RCC heirarchy tells you is the interpretation. You agree with it. Other’s do not.
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SpiritMeadow
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You all need to get on the same page. Two people here have told me I cannot leave the RCC, and quite a few more claim that one who doesn’t adhere to every tenet of the RCC faith is not a Catholic in the first place. LOL…You can’t have it both ways.I was not trying to be combative. Do you always carry on conversations in this manner?
You stated you “use” to be Catholic. If you have been baptized into the Catholic Church you are Catholic forever. Baptism leaves an indelible mark on a person it can never be removed. You are a Catholic. The question to be answered is are you a heretic or apostate? Before you think I lack charity. Let me qualify my remarks. If you are invincibely ignorant then you are neither.
If you want to discuss if protestants have always participated in Lent or Ash Wednesday I would be happy.
Peace,
David
I have no problem discussing things, but I have no interest in you or your church’s claim that I am either invicincibly ignorant or a heretic or in apostosy. It 's frankly offensive although when I am told this, it is with wide-eyed innocence and claims that “we are required to teach the truth!”
You know what you are doing, and I simply don’t choose to play. Your words were inciteful and I think you know that. I am more than willing to discuss issues, but not when we start from the point of “given that you have no truth in your Church…”
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graceandglory
Guest
More protestants are doing Lent since the book “Purpose Driven Life” by Rick Warren, and his 40 Days of Purpose campaign.Protestants do not do Lent. At least not the 8 ones that I know. They simply feel that it is a “Catholic” thing…still baffled??
40 days of purpose? Doesn’t that ring a bell, anyone??
Ever heard of LENT?
Always so busy reinventing the true Church, they are.
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OneTrueCathApos
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No, what I meant and what you misunderstood was if you read Scripture, the Early Church Fathers, and other history of the Catholic church, you’d find that Christ did in fact establish the Catholic church and no other church was started by Him, all others are man made. Remember that for the first 1500 years, there were only Catholic Christians. All of the Protestant Reformers were Catholic first. therefore common sense tells you about the Catholic faith. It isn’t that I tell you about my church and you choose to believe it or not, but it is a fact and facts are believable.
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OneTrueCathApos
Guest
But Catholics observed it first.More protestants are doing Lent since the book “Purpose Driven Life” by Rick Warren, and his 40 Days of Purpose campaign.
40 days of purpose? Doesn’t that ring a bell, anyone??
Ever heard of LENT?
Always so busy reinventing the true Church, they are.
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DCD
Guest
You being offended is a personal problem. The term invincibly ignorant is not offensive properly understood. IN FACT it is a charitable term that The Church founded by Jesus Christ uses for people who do not comprehend. You have stated that you have “advanced” training in the RCC. If this is the case then you should know that it’s not a pejarotive term.(invincibly ignorant) “The works of mercy are charitable actions by which we come to the aid of our neighbor in his spiritual and bodily necessities.” Catechism of the Catholic Church, 2447 If you are here to learn then you need to distinquish between feelings and instruction. The chasm is wide.
You should know based on your “training and research” that Baptism leaves an indelible mark. Your post’s in this thread have been incoherent and at times a rant. In this thread your training and knowledge that you keep alluding is not apparent. If I come across as rude then I am sorry. That is not my intent. If you are capable, when you post, could you give more substance and less generalities about The Holy Roman Catholic Church?
Peace,
David
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OneTrueCathApos
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SpiritMeadow
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I don’t mean to belabor the point. I understand what you men. But I can but inform you that other people read the same scripture, and study the times and come to very different conclusions than you do. For instance:
- Some don’t think Jesus intended to start a church. Some think that was added later to the writings to make it seem that way, since that is what occured. Jesus was a Jew and some believe he meant to reform Judaism, not start a new church.
- There has been a RCC indentified as such since at least the 300’s CE by some estimations. However, there have always been groups who didn’t agree with what became Rome, either in its claim of primacy or in its theology. Those persons would argue that the Church is universal, and that those who broke from Rome were in reality continuing the “true church” and leaving one that had strayed from truth. You of course may disagree, but they are relying on the same scriptures and readings you are and coming to very different conclusions. The EOC is an example of this, as is the Protestant reformation. But there are many others.
- Most importantly, claims to being first don’t get you very far. If in deed, as some claim the RCC has fallen into error, then being first means nothing I would argue. I understand you continue this heirarchy into the idea that Christ sent the HS to your specific church as opposed to the church universal to protect it. Others of course claim that the HS protects them as well. Certainly, every single Christian has claim to being infused with the HS which no doubt tries to keep us all in truth.
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SpiritMeadow
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What it comes down to is this. “this is what I think my Church teaches, and therefore, if you don’t agree with me, your invincible ignorant.” That is simply a logically wrong statement period. Calling it “charitable” is but a means to get around being charged with being insulting.
Thanks, glad to know I’m “incoherent and ranting.” LOL. …
I’m not interesting in attacking the RCC at all, never have been. Some here far exceed the church’s teachings and for that I am quite sad. She is conservative enough in my opinion without being in some cases misrepresented as even more so. But that as I said, is my opinion.
I think we have strayed far from the point of this thread. Thanks for you observations and opinions.
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GKC
Guest
The subject may be off topic. But I do not think what you said above approximates the theoretical concept of invincible ignorance, which, were you to be correctly characterized as being in a state of, would work in your favor. But, given your statements of your RC background, and diligent study of Church doctrine, seems not to be something an RC would impute to you.
GKC
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SpiritMeadow
Guest
LOL…You’re always soooooooo kind! Blessings.
You are indeed correct that it would work for my benefit, but any casual reader of my posts would have to admit I would assume that it could not be applied to me. I simply have exhibited none of the required prerequesites to qualify. Since the poster seemed to understand the term, I didn’t think it was required that I “teach” the definition.
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GKC
Guest
Terminally irenic, that’s me, as is generally known.
But why would you state the case in a fashion which would require that your interlocutor doesn’t understand the term? DCD certainly does.
GKC
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Neil_Anthony
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There’s still some hope for you, you could be so immersed in the modern relativist way of thinking that you’re simply incapable of seeing what is true and what is not.
Similar things could be said about anyone on any side, not just you.
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