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wwolverine
Guest
Some of the points you have shown i have seen them myself, but not all. I am particularly interested in NO 10. could you explain more on it? I will appreciate for your kind help.
God Bless.
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God Bless.
J
Jimmy_B
Guest
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wwolverine
Guest
I dont think its about judging people, but reminding people how they should behave when they are in the presence of God. Take it or leave it and judgment is the authority of God.
Its better that Nice brought this subject so that those who behave in those points will atleast realize their follies,
God Bless
R
Robin
Guest
Greg27,
You have covered a lot of territory, here and unfortunately (in my opinion), it is likewise true in the US.
I will touch on only a few points. A Divorce’-with 2 or 3 children-may not be attending church because she feels she is in a state of sin. She broke down from lonelines and has taken on a boyfriend. (This could have happened to a man of course.)
She (He) still would like to have her children be Catholic. Maybe their lives will end up more normally with a permanent marriage and a mate that doesn’t want out - or can’t be lived with. Noone comes to the divorce’s door to at least invite the children to Mass or even Catechism. These children may be an embarrasment to the church. They may even be very poor. Which is Worse. Eventually, they all become Baptists. Or most likely, nothing at all.
Or say the recently Divorced - through no fault of their own - suddenly find themselves without a mate. Who cares? There is no Recently Divorced support groups to help them adjust to an extremely lonely and stressful situation. The obvious conclusion. The Church doesn’t care about them. And it’s pretty obvious.
Often times, people leave the Church for Spurious reasons. Noone asks them to talk to anyone in the Church - Lay or Clergy - to see if things can be worked out. Most Divorced Catholics - even if they are not the offending parts - are not aware that they can still receive communion as long as they are in a state of grace. A lot of good Catholics - being unaware - leave the Church for that simple reason. Why is that not general knowledge? Shouldn’t it be?
I think I have just scratched the surface of why so many people leave the Church. Divorce is just one of many areas where Compassion is sorely needed. Why is there not more? This is the world we live in even if we don’t like it. Isn’t compassion a large part of what being Christian and Catholic is about? Did Christ walk away from Mary Magdaline?
Hardly any of us are perfect. People - at least show compassion.
S
Sailor_Kenshin
Guest
Which makes me wonder, since none of those items were directed at you or your situation, why offense was taken.
And why, in general, ‘taking offense’ seems to be on the rise today.
In a world where sinful behavior is celebrated, and abortion is casually referred to as ‘choice,’ could that be related?
K
kristine105
Guest
- Ctholics who are so judgmental and remains so silent.
Some catholics are not well cathecised in tithes.
Instead of making these list and instead of complaining why not evangelize some catholics reminding these. Stop complaining and try to correct these by evangelization. Remember that God judges those who judges. because in this case, I think your judging some Catholics. Do you think you are also not doing any disorder during the mass? Maybe you also commits, probably not on your list but on the other’s list. If you know what I mean.
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Apryl
Guest
I see that this was posted a while ago, but I don’t see a response
And I am not the original poster of the thread, but I’ll try to answer anyway
Many Catholics have the idea that tithing, giving the FIRST 10% OF WHAT YOU HAVE, is a Protestant Tradition, and to tithe is not something that Catholic are ‘supposed’ to do.
Many Catholics have the idea that if they just put in some money, to help out the poor, that’s enough.
The reality is that many of our Catholic churches are closing because there is not enough in the collection to keep the church going, and the buildings need assistance.
Historically, there were people who donated their Time, Talents AND Treasures to the church.
People worked with programs like St. Vincent de Paul and donated time at the school and helped to put out the coffee and doughnuts and were participants (at least) in the School Plays and visiting the sick and shut in members of the Parish. The ones with craft skills, masonry, painting, carpentry, sewing, knitting, donated their talents to build and improve and maintain the churches and schools. Those who had the financial resources gave a lot, but those who didn’t have a lot gave what they could. If you were to look at what many gave in the 50s and 60s, it could compare to a a 20# turkey in the collection - this is the poor people. Today, some people who are earning 6 figures donate $20 for a month.
It’s almost comical when people brag on what they contribute, but it was a lot for their grandparents to put that much in the collection, but today, it doesn’t touch the needs of the parish.
(Another point is that fewer people are coming to church regularly, but they want the resources of the church for their sacraments - which is an unfair drain)
When people tithe, that means the FIRST TEN PERCENT. Not what’s left over after everything else. Let’s be real: if you contribute to the church, that won’t make you unable to pay for everything else.
If a person earns $100 for the week, they should contribute $10, which leaves them $90. If you know that you have earned $100, but you’ve already allocated $10 for church, you can budget accordingly!
Many are not taught to tithe. ‘We’re Catholic. We don’t do that’. But what DO you do? Some even say that ‘tithing just means to contribute regularly’…but you really want to get God’s left overs? I even had one homily where what was said was that we should contribute $1/day. Humph. There are some who still don’t even do that.
There are lots of reasons to tithe, and I have lots of answers for those who don’t want to.
O
OneAugustKnight
Guest
I learned to be offended at everything from television and school. That’s why it is on rise, the purpose or point of it is so that people can do whatever they want without facing any criticism.
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Apryl
Guest
The list was posted to address some important issues, and to pull some coat tails, without attacking any one personally.
Would you feel better if you were going down the wrong path, and no one told you about it? Just let you wander aimlessly and continue to do things that will only lead to you teaching your children wrong things, or not teaching your children right?
To even suggest that you are so offended is pretty bad. I can’t put words on it, but your saying that you are going to be thinking at Mass that someone else will notice you are doing wrong, and now, some how, that’s bad on their part. C’mon!
If someone sees you doing wrong, and doesn’t tell you, they are even more wrong to not say anything to you about it.
If someone corrects you, and you don’t take the correction, that’s even more wrong than the first mistake.
Now you want to suggest licking your wounds… did you look at that list? The things on that list point to a lack of reverence for the Mass and the Blessed Sacrament. Would you suggest that your feelings, based on you not knowing any better, trump the Mass or the Sacrament?
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GKCT
Guest
I am a returning Catholic from the Latin Mass, have much to learn and relearn. And I am so happy to be back. When I go to Mass, I sit near the front, therefore I don’t see what others are doing or wearing and therefore am not distracted. When the communicants are moving forward to receive Communion, I am praying and not watching them. We also do not know what is going on in their minds and hearts, the “worst” person there could be the holiest.
Also, Paul VI, I believe, gave an Intult to France and a couple of other countries to allow them to receive Communion in their hands because it was an established practice. Some countries went back to receiving on the tongue as their bishops disallowed receiving in the hand. Good for them! He did NOT give permission for any other countries to receive in the hand. Therefore, we are doing it all wrong. I believe we have lost respect for the Holy Eucharist. If you drop even a crumb of the Eucharist, you are disrespecting Christ, and it does happen. The Eucharist has even been found in pews after Mass. So sad. We even have an EM retrieving the chalice and walks around the church presenting Communion to those that did not receive, presumably the choir. Whereas I belive the choir should come down after Mass and receive at the altar. A lot more respect is required in our church. I have to place some of the blame on the priests, who either don’t care or didn’t receive a great education in the seminary as to the holiness of the Eucharist. Have a blessed day.
Also, Paul VI, I believe, gave an Intult to France and a couple of other countries to allow them to receive Communion in their hands because it was an established practice. Some countries went back to receiving on the tongue as their bishops disallowed receiving in the hand. Good for them! He did NOT give permission for any other countries to receive in the hand. Therefore, we are doing it all wrong. I believe we have lost respect for the Holy Eucharist. If you drop even a crumb of the Eucharist, you are disrespecting Christ, and it does happen. The Eucharist has even been found in pews after Mass. So sad. We even have an EM retrieving the chalice and walks around the church presenting Communion to those that did not receive, presumably the choir. Whereas I belive the choir should come down after Mass and receive at the altar. A lot more respect is required in our church. I have to place some of the blame on the priests, who either don’t care or didn’t receive a great education in the seminary as to the holiness of the Eucharist. Have a blessed day.
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sojo
Guest
I am not offended personally. I am offended by the scandolous and serious lack of charity and ruthless judging and arrogance of some of the posters here. And now I’m being judged for my feelings? Get real. Even better, is the poster who insinuates and/or correlates my feelings with abortionists? Huh? Did he miss the part where I said I had my child while being pressured to abort because of his disability?The list was posted to address some important issues, and to pull some coat tails, without attacking any one personally.
Would you feel better if you were going down the wrong path, and no one told you about it? Just let you wander aimlessly and continue to do things that will only lead to you teaching your children wrong things, or not teaching your children right?
To even suggest that you are so offended is pretty bad. I can’t put words on it, but your saying that you are going to be thinking at Mass that someone else will notice you are doing wrong, and now, some how, that’s bad on their part. C’mon!
If someone sees you doing wrong, and doesn’t tell you, they are even more wrong to not say anything to you about it.
If someone corrects you, and you don’t take the correction, that’s even more wrong than the first mistake.
Now you want to suggest licking your wounds… did you look at that list? The things on that list point to a lack of reverence for the Mass and the Blessed Sacrament. Would you suggest that your feelings, based on you not knowing any better, trump the Mass or the Sacrament?
Some folks are drawn to the Mass by only the barest flicker of the Holy Spirit that their sinful state can let in. If this brings them to church in shorts and sandals, or if they don’t know what the red light is next to the tabernacle, or if their lack of understanding of what is going on leads them to whisper a bit with their neighbor (or perhaps they are enduring mental illness or other disabilitiy), who are YOU to judge that they should leave? And what are YOU doing to show Christ’s love and compassion and forgiveness and gradually draw them in with that love to a greater understanding a reverence? If people aren’t showing proper reverence to the tabernacle or the Mass, it is because they don’t know. They may not be able to let in more than a flicker of the goodness around them. They are broken and hurting and they put up walls to protect their hearts and minds.
I am offended that our mother church has done such a poor job of catechizing its own members, supposedly lay ministers of the church, to the evils of self-righteousness, arrogance and lack of charity. The attitude that Jesus demonstrated for us drew in sinners, attracted them, lured them into his love and forgiveness first, and then to deeper understanding. What I see here is folks who drive people away, offend them and then innocently ask, “oopsie did I offend”? How trite. How sad. And then you cover it all with “correcting out of charity.” And typing up a cold list of hates and invite others to come up with their own hate lists.
If you think blowing me or any other Christian out of the water in the name of “correcting out of charity” is going to bring one more soul to heaven, you are sorely mistaken. What you are doing is turning folks off from the love and protection of Christ’s love. And you should be ashamed.
I will take my “offense” which you seem to think is my fault for “choosing” out of this thread, now and you can go on discussing how disgusting your fellow sisters and brothers in Christ are for not appreciating God as much as you do and not acting (appearing) as reverent as you do.
And excuse my emotional rant from the heart - but perhaps you can excuse it all as my own attempt to charitably correct your lack of charity and brotherly love.
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HolyCow21
Guest
Maybe #1 happens as a result of judgment from people like you. Your prayers have been answered. People are not being proper and are excusing themselves from mass.
Seriously though, I can see how some of these are real issues and some are more judgmental. Like keeping the kids under control and talking during mass. Those 2 things might go hand-in-hand. I’m sure people are supposed to be cookie cutter, but sorry to say a stern quiet look at the children doesn’t work for everybody. And judging oh, sorry, I mean honestly observing how people are are clothed? Maybe you need some ADHD meds? Not judging or diagnosing, just making an honest observation that if you’re too distracted by such things, maybe it’s not other people’s fault.
As for the rest of it… I read earlier in this thread that you work for the church. People who work anywhere seem to have an attitude that everybody should automatically know nearly everything they do about what to do in that place of business, even if they aren’t there even a small percentage of the time you are.
So, instead of making observations that come across as judgment, why don’t you propose some way to educate people about what they should do? One thing that I learned a long time ago that seems to hold a lot of truth, “Perception IS reality.” It doesn’t matter what your intention was or how you try to defend yourself, but if you keep going on like you did for the first 4-5 pages (all I read) people are going to perceive you as being judgmental.
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UniversalistGuy
Guest
Can you explain this please? I don’t get what you mean. Do you mean some Catholic bishops are disobeying the pope’s instructions about having communion in their hands?
What’s an EM?
Have you thought of any solutions? There seems to be something very wrong in the Catholic Church. Why do you stay being a Catholic?
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rinnie
Guest
Yes my Dad wore them all year around. He lived in Florida and served Mass many times a week and attended Mass every single day.In spite of being a well catechised, daily Mass attender, frequent confession goer, I’m on your little list @no. 4 because I wear sandals all summer!
- Catholics who spend time creating lists of Catholics they don’t like.
As he got older his feet began to swell so bad that he could not wear shoes anymore. So he had to quit wearing the dress shoes and wear sandles. Father never minded!
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Sailor_Kenshin
Guest
lack of ‘charity?’ Lack of ‘brotherly love?’
What has happened to the real definition of love—and not some sloppy-agape that says, “There, there, do whatever makes you feel good—just as long as your self-esteem is intact?”
What happened to the love that demands fraternal correction? What happened to the love that sees as its highest aim the avoidance of sin and attainment of heaven?
Or are we all too busy being professional offendees?
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Apryl
Guest
I’m all for the Kum-Ba-Ya brigade and such… but there is a time and a place for the Kum-Ba-Ya to go on.
While it’s great that you may be so into the Mass that, unlike some others, you don’t let yourself get distracted
… there are only so many seats in the front of the church. So, some one has to be behind the ones who are doing the dirt. And the ones who are doing wrong are (hopefully) doing wrong because they don’t know any better. How can someone correct those who are doing wrong if they just sit back quietly and allow them to do wrong, and smile, and say, ‘Oh, Happy Day’ and let it go. No.
When there is wrong, esp when it comes to the sanctity of the church, the Eucharist and Mass, something should be said to correct it. There are also those who are in positions of working with the church. How do you expect them to help to retain the sanctity of the church if they don’t even know what’s the misunderstanding of those in the pews?
While you may be able to remain pius enough to not let others distract you, children see this behavior. Your children, my children, just the kids. If they see adults doing wrong and are never corrected, that would mean the children would learn to do wrong. There is nothing Kum-Ba-Ya in that. No one benefits from allowing children to do wrong.
If you saw a friend who had a habit of driving fast on the road, teeth bared and white knuckled, weaving between lanes, would you say something to that friend? What about if that same friend had a bottle of vodka and they were about to get into a car while tipsy? Would you say anything?
What about those of us who are not police officers or doctors or lawyers? Wouldn’t we be expected to at least say ‘I don’t think that’s a good idea’ and even ‘this is why’.
What if you saw a friend about to put some Drain Cleaner in the sink and then follow it up with a cup of bleach. Would you say anything to them to stop?
If not, why not?
We can put our heads in the sand, and pretend that everything else is wonderful… but at some point, the water can fill in those holes and we will all be drowning. Not a good thing.
And see, I like you. I don’t even know you, but I like you. Because I like you, even if just on the humanitarian level, I care enough to say, ‘that’s not enough’ and ‘we all need to do better’
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Nicea325
Guest
Indeed! Pulpit and bulletin are good ways to reach out to the community.
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Nicea325
Guest
Amen! Thank you for acknowledging my position.I dont think its about judging people, but reminding people how they should behave when they are in the presence of God. Take it or leave it and judgment is the authority of God.
Its better that Nice brought this subject so that those who behave in those points will atleast realize their follies,
God Bless
U
UniversalistGuy
Guest
You’re doing that serious and mature thing again.
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Nicea325
Guest
I do not consider it wasted energy when it is an on-going problem at the parish I work at and worship with others.
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