What I don't understand about forgiveness

[DarkLight]

Everything I’ve seen talking about forgiveness, trying to explain what it is and how to do it, seems to start from a place of anger and a desire to get back at the person. And then it goes on to talk about letting go of that anger and your desire to hurt the other person or pay them back, and that’s what forgiveness is.

That part never seemed to fit for me. For me, hurt seemed to produce, not a desire to pay someone back, but an overwhelming, desperate sense of needing to convince them to understand what they’re doing. Most of the time I struggle and have to actually go out of my way to make myself feel enough anger to not run back for a false reconciliation. I find myself almost obsessively longing to fix things, to somehow make them understand what it’s like for me, for them to reach the point where they genuinely want to fix things.

Getting away from this honestly looks more like indifference to anything else. Reaching the point where I don’t really care if they ever acknowledge their sins or not and would prefer not to try to mend anything. But that always seems like the wrong direction - to go from longing for them to repent to not being particularly concerned with it.

I’ve been looking for help on this, but most everything I’ve seen seems to start from a description of what it’s like to have not forgiven someone that seems like a strange, foreign state to me. Like I’m being told that forgiveness requires me letting go of a desire I don’t understand why I would have in the first place. But I can’t find anything that doesn’t seem to start there.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

You can’t make people care or make them understand. For you to be fixated on getting some particular response out of them is as bad as being angry with them because both responses are destructive to yourself.

You need to accept people as they are and just leave them in God’s hands.

 

[Trishie]

Does this prayer help?

When we cannot forgive

Father help us to recover where injury goes beyond ordinary forgiveness and our hearts are in some way crushed, and our lives changed and devalued. Help us to find a way to forgive when we cannot smile or encounter the offending person with warmth because they have destroyed something in us.

Father please help us to forgive when we cannot forgive…and we cannot forgive because they do not understand how badly they have hurt us, and do not seek in any real way to acknowledge or try to heal the hurt they imposed on us. And even when we tried to tell them from the bottom of our heart but they would not listen, please help us to forgive.

Father help us to forgive when those who hurt our lives do not even remember how badly they have wounded us, and go on with their lives without concern, while we remain still held in some kind of time capsule with the consequences of their unfeeling and uncaring and attack.

Father, help us to forgive when those who wounded us by ignoring our needs and requests, yet who desire us to ignore their offence, and expect us to respond to their hints or manipulations while they make no concessions or apologies.

Help us to forgive those who impose their own conditions and rules upon us, without respecting that our hurt is real and radical, while they make us feel that they only desire our capitulation without justice, apology, or generosity from them.

Please help us to forgive those who have hurt us physically, or emotionally, or mentally, and above all, spiritually, by action or by neglect.

Father please free us, free me, in forgiveness that comes from Your Son, innocent, and murdered, but forgiving

(from “a handful of wildflowers”)

That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t try to explain. Some people will listen, with others there are only arguments, therefore the efforts will be useless, even damaging.
(from “a handful of wildflowers”)

 

[DarkLight]

You can’t make people care or make them understand. For you to be fixated on getting some particular response out of them is as bad as being angry with them because both responses are destructive to yourself.

I understand that this is a thing, but I don’t really understand how to get to it. And I find that the advice on forgiveness that’s out there doesn’t really seem to apply or be helpful to me, because it’s focused on dealing with something that’s not really what I experience.

 

[Irishmom2]

Wow Trishie, so beautiful. And very helpful to me. Thank you for posting this beautiful prayer!

 

[adgloriam]

Most of the time I struggle and have to actually go out of my way to make myself feel enough anger to not run back for a false reconciliation.

The gift of meekness, a rare and beautiful gift = that you don’t rush to anger. BUT, ALSO de gift of charity, you long for the best outcome (for them, and yourself) and you love them - indeed, the highest of gifts - the only commandment.

And also the moral virtue of long-suffering.

Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called children of God.

That part never seemed to fit for me.

That would be narrowing in scope, the breath of your mercy and gifts are far greater my dear!! Since, regarding forgiveness you aren’t on the side of sin, but on the side of virtue.

The action of the Holy Spirit and your cooperation with grace, has left in your person durable and habitual inner dispositions that all equate to sanctity and holiness.

 

[Vico]

…

Temperance, the virtue, concerns the regulation of the passions of anger and vindictiveness by right reason. So there are the negative virtues of forgoing of anger (meekness) and the remission of punishment (clemency), but they are not the highest virtues, which are rather the cardinal virtues faith, hope, and charity, and justice and prudence, which are positive. In essence we show love more perfectly by helping another to be morally good than by providing comfort and relief from obligation that forgiveness provide. Yet, it is not acceptable to directly move another’s will as it would be a violation of freedom.

Matt 18

15 “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother.

Luke 17

3 Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. 4 And if he wrongs you seven times in one day and returns to you seven times saying, ‘I am sorry,’ you should forgive him.”

2 Chronicles 7

14 if then my people, upon whom my name has been pronounced, humble themselves and pray, and seek my face and turn from their evil ways, I will hear them from heaven and pardon their sins and heal their land.

Isaiah 26

10 The wicked, when spared, do not learn justice;
in an upright land they act perversely,
and do not see the majesty of the Lord.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

So you don’t feel any sort of upset or disappointment or negative feeling about the other person? Because those are all along the same spectrum as anger.

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

an overwhelming, desperate sense of needing to convince them to understand what they’re doing

In my own experience, that rarely happens.
I totally understand this impulse. But I find that most folks have rationalizations out the wazoo, and the best I can hope for is to not let toxic anger build up or linger in me

 

[Annie]

I find myself almost obsessively longing to fix things, to somehow make them understand what it’s like for me, for them to reach the point where they genuinely want to fix things.

It seems to me that you are still trying to be in charge of some of their future–that you want to make them feel sorry, etc., when you should be leaving even that up to God.

Even tho you don’t want to hurt them, you still want to make them feel bad about what they did. Turn them over to God, Who can teach them so much better than you can. And pray for them, to help God out.

 

[adgloriam]

But I can’t find anything that doesn’t seem to start there.

I believe you are asking the right question but, in your case, the answer doesn’t pertain to forgiveness. The answer you seek isn’t to be found in forgiveness because you have already forgiven in you heart.

What I do think your question pertains to is: wisdom!! How and why?? Well, those four books in the bible (part of what’s called the “sapiential section”) Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Wisdom and Ben-Sira go on at length about dealing with difficult people whilst “keeping your wits about you”. And, some of it is disheartening…

Reaching the point where I don’t really care if they ever acknowledge their sins or not and would prefer not to try to mend anything. But that always seems like the wrong direction - to go from longing for them to repent to not being particularly concerned with it.

Now here comes the trick. You are supposed to have a measure of “detachment” (I dislike the word because it’s easily misleading and frequently misappropriated- especially with family and spouse, how could you detach what God united, “flesh of my flesh, blood of my blood”?)

Meaning, when you are with those “difficult persons” keep you calm and composure, be your own person - but DO NOT fall into the “false alternative of indifference”, that is not what a catholic is supposed to do!! You should, however, disregard nonsense and that typical “pushing of buttons” family members, more than anyone, excel at. (You may notice: the interesting challenge that it’s “not up to you” to change the other person, BUT what is up to you in good is your own conduct when dealing with them - and that can be both a science and an art.)

In a nutshell, don’t be indifferent (your charity won’t let you) just shrug off what shouldn’t be minded and keep a watchful eye for what effects others actions have on your emotions. [What I believe your question pertains to is: the moral virtue of fortitude in dealing with difficult persons taken together, inseparably, with the wisdom of how to deal with them.]

Final catch: no one can “shrug of” or “not mind” continued offenses, aggravation, emotional blackmail, manipulation attempts, deceiving, certain types of “mind tricks” and some nefarious kinds of social games. The hard part there is being wise with fortitude.

 

[po18guy]

Maybe baby steps first. Something as simple as the serenity prayer may help you to understand that some things are simply beyond us. We have no power over them and some things we cannot change. That is where our Lord steps into the gap. Yet, all is a vital part of God’s plan for us and for them.

If your thoughts are intrusive, or destructive of your peace, perhaps a new and different style of counseling might be something to think about. You have carried a heavy load for a long time, is my guess. Some of your feelings and thoughts are, by now, habitual. If those habits are not good for you, there are ways of breaking those habits and replacing them.

I have found that praying from the heart for those whom it is the absolute hardest to pray for is both cathartic and edifying. It begins as a chore, but with consistent practice, there is a point at which things will click.

Just 2¢

 

[adgloriam]

DarkLight:

I find myself almost obsessively longing to fix things, to somehow make them understand what it’s like for me, for them to reach the point where they genuinely want to fix things.

It seems to me that you are still trying to be in charge of some of their future–that you want to make them feel sorry, etc., when you should be leaving even that up to God.

You are not exactly right about this @Annie, because like saint JPII wrote in “Love and Responsibility”: to love someone makes us wish they take the right decisions and creates the wish in us to take responsibility for their decisions. (However, saint JPII doesn’t say this lightly and it is understood that you respect the other persons freedom, which does not invalidate the genuine wish of responsibility that comes from genuine charity - or that the other persons choices are objectively wrong and erroneous.)

(…)that you want to make them feel sorry, etc., when you should be leaving even that up to God.(…)

(…)you still want to make them feel bad about what they did. Turn them over to God(…)

No @Annie, I’m sorry but not a single thing in what the OP wrote here, or elsewhere, indicates this. I do not see even the slightest indication at “desire to do justice by their own hand” (which is of anger) by “making them feel bad”. What I do see, is the natural and praiseworthy desire for peace, reconciliation, and justice - which are of charity, let me say it again: praiseworthy.

Finally, the “leave it up to God” part doesn’t solve the issue of our own conduct and dealings with others(and self) - what we can, and should, objectively: do, say and think (it simply remits elsewhere) - because, plenty (if not all) is out of our hands, and up to God - BUT after wisely having recognized as much, we should recognize what and how much, is up to us (with God’s help).

 

[Annie]

to love someone makes us wish they take the right decisions and creates the wish in us to take responsibility for their decisions.

Naturally we want those we love to make good decisions, but I don’t understand what you mean by our wanting to “take responsibility for their decisions.”

No @Annie, I’m sorry but not a single thing in what the OP wrote here, or elsewhere, indicates this. I do not see even the slightest indication at “desire to do justice by their own hand” (which is of anger) by “making them feel bad”.

Well, it seems that you and I understood what @DarkLight wrote differently. I apologize if I was wrong, but I felt there was a desire to handle this making them feel sorry on her own, rather than leaving this lesson up to God.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I disagree, and I don’t see it as cross-examination to give an honest opinion.
You don’t know me, or my experiences with forgiveness, and I will not be sharing them on this forum, so kindly just refrain from judging. If the OP has a problem with my post I’m sure she can and will let me know. Good bye.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I’m in agreement with you, Annie, fwiw. And it does seem that not everyone is reading the posts in the same way, which makes it rather hard to discuss.

 

[Annie]

The perils of the written word!

 

[adgloriam]

I disagree

and so do I

You don’t know me

I didn’t know JPII, John Hardon, or Machado de Assis, either. But I do love their writing

Good bye.

In Spanish “Adios” or “a-Dios”, meaning: “to-God”.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

I find myself almost obsessively longing to fix things, to somehow make them understand what it’s like for me, for them to reach the point where they genuinely want to fix things.

I believe I was unfairly sacked in 2011 from a job I had been doing for ten years. I never had a day of sick, I did a lot of the jobs other people seemed afraid to do, caring for people with challenging behaviour.

Since being sacked; I have done about two thousand hours of voluntary work for the people who sacked me. On occasions, I come into contact with the people responsible for my sacking, I pray that God will bless them and give them peace. Being able to pray for their peace, has helped me to experience a peace that transcends my understanding.

It has been easier for me to do two thousand hours of voluntary work, rather than to hold onto any anger and hate I could have for them. I know this to be true; because in the past I have lived with real anger; I know how it has made me feel; it eats away at the soul and makes you feel miserable. I am determined that I will not be controlled by anger; I just don’t have the time or energy for those emotions any more.

 

[Irishmom2]

I don’t think you were wrong, Annie.