What I don't understand about forgiveness

[vsedriver]

I’m trying to learn it’s ok to set boundaries and tell certain people, look, you may not like what I did but that doesn’t mean I’m changing it for you. I’m not sacrificing myself for you just because you demand it. And that’s hard to know how to fit with Christian ideals.

I had a friend in this position. She wanted to always act with Christian Charity but there was one person who was taking advantage of her and telling her that if she didn’t do as she asked then my friend was being selfish and unChristian. Within our group of cursillistas we helped my friend to realize that it was OK to say NO to all the requests made of her by this woman in her life. These were not requests where the person was hungry, ill, needed clothing, or housing. They were requests to do laundry, housework, and drive her around.

 

[adgloriam]

Hello @DarkLight,

I would like to start by saying, that the first thing we addressed was love and the longing for reconciliation that comes of love. I think this should be the starting point, as you so well expressed in your OP. And I will say it again: as so your perfectly echoed the words of saint pope JPII himself. And the reason why I think this of such important is, because it allows a stepping stone, the laying of a solid foundation from which to build on. Where there to be any misconception regarding the longing for reconciliation it would contribute to nothing but confusion.

The second issue which now emerges -and was already present in the OP- is: Anger.
Now, you give Anger specific circumstances and, I will address the circumstances as I build towards addressing Anger.

There are countless expressions of Anger. And Anger immediately upon expression, manifests in forms: “getting shouted down”, insult, injustice, vengeance, threats, selfishness, etc - these are the “overt” forms. But there are also “covert/veiled” forms to express anger: “the could shoulder”, blaming, “silent treatment”, etc…

Thinking, now, exclusively within the “field of morals”: Anger is one of the 7 ‘Capital Sins’ which are not by definition ‘Mortal Sins’ or ‘Material Sins’. Because, the 7 ‘Capital Sins’ haven’t yet materialized, they are ‘States of the Spirit’ that upon expression take a material form, thus materialize, becoming material sins - consummated sins. Sins against justice, sins against charity, sins against humility, one single act (expression) of Anger can simultaneously sin against several commandments and virtues.

[If you haven’t looked at the check list of expressions (passive/aggressive/assertive) of Anger, I would very much recommend you do so here: Dichotomies of anger expression on wikipedia].

Now, the circumstance of Anger you describe is taken over time. There was Anger in the past, and in your present you face the future perspective of more Anger, whilst presently dealing with the ghosts of Anger past. Expectation management is key here. [I will address it further down the thread when I speak about “habitus”.]

But you have to break this infernal circle - a vicious cycle.

There are people in the world that aren’t given to Anger. You can expect goodness, a kind word, an act of justice, benign dealings, and love.

 

[TK421]

Everything I’ve seen talking about forgiveness, trying to explain what it is and how to do it, seems to start from a place of anger and a desire to get back at the person. And then it goes on to talk about letting go of that anger and your desire to hurt the other person or pay them back, and that’s what forgiveness is.

That part never seemed to fit for me. For me, hurt seemed to produce, not a desire to pay someone back, but an overwhelming, desperate sense of needing to convince them to understand what they’re doing. Most of the time I struggle and have to actually go out of my way to make myself feel enough anger to not run back for a false reconciliation. I find myself almost obsessively longing to fix things, to somehow make them understand what it’s like for me, for them to reach the point where they genuinely want to fix things.

Getting away from this honestly looks more like indifference to anything else. Reaching the point where I don’t really care if they ever acknowledge their sins or not and would prefer not to try to mend anything. But that always seems like the wrong direction - to go from longing for them to repent to not being particularly concerned with it.

I’ve been looking for help on this, but most everything I’ve seen seems to start from a description of what it’s like to have not forgiven someone that seems like a strange, foreign state to me. Like I’m being told that forgiveness requires me letting go of a desire I don’t understand why I would have in the first place. But I can’t find anything that doesn’t seem to start there.

Wanting a person to understand the evil and hurt they are causing is a perfectly rational and human desire to have, and it is part of the spiritual works of mercy. However, sin is intrinsically irrational. A person living in sin is living in a false world: they don’t see themselves as greedy but as entitled to certain things; not as lustful but entitled to certain things; not as envious but entitled to certain things , etc.

So while it is meritorious to lead people out of sin, not even God can force a person to do that. It still has to be a choice on their part, and we have to accept the fact that that may or may not happen, and to change the things that we are able to change, to accept the things that we cannot, and to have the wisdom to know the difference.

Peace.

 

[Annie]

some people you can sacrifice and sacrifice and all your sacrifices are doing is enabling them to wear you out.

This reminded me of something I struggled with and that is the difference between enabling and helping.

Enabling is aiding someone to do something negative, as when parents give money to their child who is an addict.

Helping is aiding someone to do something positive, as when parents pay for that child’s rehab, or allow the now-clean child to stay in their home while getting on their feet.

ETA: it sounds like giving and giving till someone is filed dry is enabling selfishness and using another person. This will not help the user survive or get into Heaven, which is why we are supposed to be charitable.

 

[adgloriam]

I suspect the state is less a virtue and more based in some sense of fear/insecurity.

Please, give me this one more chance to comment @DarkLight, I think I’m getting there.

The first problem, is that at this point we are placed within the field of psychology. You understand, that this can seem “conceptual and theoretical” but it is extremely specific and personal. Thus, any direct comment would be unethical. You understand this word?: Unethical. Morals is what and what not to do. Ethics is why and why not to do.

There are reasons why it would be unethical of me to respond:

1ºI’m not a qualified mental health practitioner. What you are bringing up directly, is an extremely specific human reality. It requires specific study, it requires specific experience, it requires specific expertise (specific knowledge that took decades to build up and was scientifically analzyed). Because it is extremely specific and a matter for experts.

2ºCAF’s Terms-of-Service forbids us from soliciting or giving advice that is medical or psychological in nature. We can have general conceptual conversations, and theoretical conversations, but at this point the matter is both very personal and very delicate.

I think, what could have been drawn from theology and spirituality has, for now, been covered here - and I think some of it was really good and profitable (that longing for reconciliation comes from love). And, I believe this continued study of morals&theology will serve you well in the future, because you are bound to come across subjects and issues that pertain directly and even exclusively to these fields. However, what you describe in post nº27 of this thread is bound not to get adequate comments and profitable comments here, because: it is a matter of expertise. It pertains to a hurtful experience, and an experience that is only specifically studied by the field of psychology.

Now, you can research and read up on this through your own means. And I think you should!! And I believe that with just a little bit of research you will find the exact specifics you’ve brought up here today.There are plenty of psychiatrists, on the NET, directly addressing these very specific circumstances. And a significant part of the moral concepts under discussion become secondary, and even accessory if not merely marginal or tangential.

After a brief research on the topic of Anger, this exact same description you gave in post nº27 turned up immediately - an article in “psychology today” addressing it. However, please notice that Anger is a very broad issue, and if you research it a significant amount of information will turn up and you have to filter what part addresses your specifics and what part doesn’t.

As a breadcrumb of a breadcrumb trail: within this article there is one part that addresses the specific circumstances you described (try googling from there for more specifics): Anger: A Misunderstood Feeling, by Paul Hollinger, M.D.

God bless you @DarkLight.

 

[Annie]

Dark Light, do you think limited counseling on just this issue might help?

 

[DarkLight]

Dark Light, do you think limited counseling on just this issue might help?

I think it would be hard to find someone. I feel like I can’t find someone who addresses the issue in a way that meets where I am. I’m well familiar with how secular psychology approaches the issue and I find it unsatisfactory - like it expects my faith to stay in a little sunday box where it doesn’t get in the way of therapy. And if faith ever causes discomfort or distress, throw it out because it’s not helping you.

What I’ve been struggling with so much is that I feel I need advice that speaks to both the psychological and the spiritual aspect at once and doesn’t try to split them apart. I find clergy unwilling to speak to anything related to mental health, and counselors unable to speak to anything related to faith. But this is both at once and together and I can’t separate them and deal with it only from one side or the other, especially not when the answers seem to contradict each other.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

When in doubt, go first to your knees, then to the Bible, then the Catechism, then your pastor, and then…Don Henley:

"I’ve been trying to get down
To the heart of the matter
But my will gets weak
And my thoughts seem to scatter
But I think it’s about forgiveness
Forgiveness
Even if, even if you don’t love me

I’ve been tryin’ to get down
To the heart of the matter
Because the flesh will get weak
And the ashes will scatter
So, I’m thinkin’ about forgiveness
Forgiveness
Even if , even if you don’t love me any more"

I just came back to say that this is one of the best songs about forgiveness ever, even though Don Henley is definitely uncool in my social circles. I have thought of it often since it first came out and was sort of a “deep cut” buried at the end of an album.

If I were back in high school and we had that exercise where you were supposed to find a popular song from your record collection that expresses a Christian teaching and bring the record in and play it for the class, I would definitely be bringing that one in. Thank you for posting it TULIPed.

 

[adgloriam]

I think it would be hard to find someone.

It’s been suggested on CAF many times that in this case you should write an email to the secretary of your dioceses. As Don_Ruggero used to say here on CAF, you may want to ask for a priest with a background in clinical psychology, meaning he studied and practiced the medical sciences, plus theology and philosophy - the “holistic approach” taking the person as a whole. And while it seems they are hard to contact, because of their expertise they will have the care to get back to you and take it from there.

A possible alternative: Find the Carmelites or Trapists. Write the convent or monastery that’s closest to you and do not be afraid to bother them - because they’ll be happy to hear from you. I’ve had a better experience with the Carmelites than with the Jesuists (in their special touch of taking together all the dimensions of the person) and from what I understand there’s some tradition among the Carmelites of studying spirituality taken together with modern psychology.

I’ve met the superior of a Monastery who was an experienced psychologist and priest, and a cloistered monk all together. The work they do there and the way they handle their visitors is amazing. That one monastery had thousands of pilgrims passing through it every year with hundreds of pilgrims being received by the priests for spiritual direction. Anyone stands to gain from such an experience, but perhaps in your case some follow up and a period of continuity might give the best gains.

 

[Vico]

… make them understand what it’s like for me, for them to reach the point where they genuinely want to fix things …

So it it a desire for approval?

Then if the person decides to change, after understanding your experience, it may provides a sense that the other person values you.

Or is it a desire for the other person’s spiritual welfare only?

No doubt you have seen this prayer:

Peace Prayer of Saint Francis​

Lord, make me an instrument of your peace:
where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury, pardon;
where there is doubt, faith;
where there is despair, hope;
where there is darkness, light;
where there is sadness, joy.

O divine Master, grant that I may not so much seek
to be consoled as to console,
to be understood as to understand,
to be loved as to love.
For it is in giving that we receive,
it is in pardoning that we are pardoned,
and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.

Amen.