What if a new liturgy was made that was more "Catholic" than the EF?

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Some sort of suggestion that we should simply insist that 100% of all Masses being in the OF is somehow charitable regarding those desiring the EF falls way short of any kind of Catholic understanding of the issue, at least in my opinion.

Please explain. How can a mass in any form not be charitable to all?

Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[cothrige]

What you fail to see, is that I (or the rest of the content NO crowd) are not responsible for, nor have authority over, the Mass we attend. “Superabundance” or otherwise. I have no authority to refuse to allow anything!!

I completely concede that, but you do share in the culture and contribute to it. Surely you don’t think the Bishops just sit in their ivory towers and come up with their decisions on their own? They listen to people and consider what is at work in their diocese before acting. I think the same is true for the parish. So, while we as laypeople cannot be responsible for the immediate changes, we can certainly contribute to them by creating an atmosphere of mutual respect and charity.

I also think you are taking something of a clericalist position on this. Yes, the clergy ultimately will make the decisions, but nowhere does our faith teach us that we cannot speak up in defense of the truth. If your parish tomorrow decided to replace the Bible readings with something from feminist authors, I would hope you would speak up and say something. Just sitting in the pew saying “It’s no my job!” is hardly adequate in some cases.

What I respect, is the decisions of my Bishops and Pastors. If they decide that next week, all Masses will be in Latin, then by golly I’ll start brushing up. I’m sure it will come back quickly enough.

I respect the pastors of the Church as well, but that doesn’t mean that I have no part to play either. As a Catholic I am also responsible for the faith, and share in the life of the Church. And sometimes a pastor can be wrong, and while I am opposed to publicly rebuking the pastors of the Church, I am not opposed to being an advocate for the truth or for proper Catholic actions. And I am certainly willing to oppose vocal resistance to charity and fully Catholic positions when coming from other laypeople on public fora.

But I won’t go on a forty-year rant, complaing about how I’ve been “disenfranchised or disposessed by my Church”.

That is all well and good, and I respect that. But, that can be both good and bad. Yes, quiet suffering of loss is a noble thing, but if those around you are deprived of a spiritual good then silence may be a sin. Traditionalists have in many ways followed in the ways of many great saints who chose to very strongly advocate what they thought was for the good of the Church.

I also think it is less than optimal to remind yourself of how much better you would suffer loss than the next guy. The fact is that they did suffer loss, and the Pope has recognized that the Mass they love so much was never abrogated. In other words their deprivation was not in the mind of Holy Mother Church. Therefore one can say that the entire Church deserves to have that corrected and enjoy a liberal availability of the EF Mass.

Speaking of respect. How much respect for the Popes, Cardinals, and Bishops since Vatican II that promulgated and support the NO/OF does the traditionalist crowd show?

Pot/Kettle, Kettle/Pot.

I just don’t think this entirely addresses the issues. Most traditionalists here are Catholics in Catholic churches, not schismatics. I see no reason to suppose that they haven’t respected the authority of the Popes, Cardinals, etc. up to this point. They have merely felt that in some cases mistakes were made, and have sought a change. The current Pope seems to have confirmed much of that and so it would seem that is a nonissue now.

 

[cothrige]

Please explain. How can a mass in any form not be charitable to all?

Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

Well, with all due respect Deacon Ed, I think you are taking that position too far. Would it be charitable to force all Byzantine Catholics to attend Latin churches and ban the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom? If not, why?

I am not suggesting that we should be offended by OF Masses. God forbid. However, shouldn’t we be troubled that suggestions are made that by extraordinary the Holy Father meant 0% of all Masses in a city? OF Masses are not uncharitable. Insistence that absolutely all Masses be that form might be however.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Well, with all due respect Deacon Ed, I think you are taking that position too far. Would it be charitable to force all Byzantine Catholics to attend Latin churches and ban the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom? If not, why?

I am not suggesting that we should be offended by OF Masses. God forbid. However, shouldn’t we be troubled that suggestions are made that by extraordinary the Holy Father meant 0% of all Masses in a city? OF Masses are not uncharitable. Insistence that absolutely all Masses be that form might be however.

I see your distinction - thanks
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed b

 

[ethelzguy]

I also think it is less than optimal to remind yourself of how much better you would suffer loss than the next guy. The fact is that they did suffer loss, and the Pope has recognized that the Mass they love so much was never abrogated.

A revised Mass is cause for a Catholic to “suffer loss”?

The Mass is your personal property to gain or lose? This seems to underscore the issue better than I ever could. By your own admission, for some, the Latin Mass is a “property” to be held.

 

[ethelzguy]

So, while we as laypeople cannot be responsible for the immediate changes, we can certainly contribute to them by creating an atmosphere of mutual respect and charity.

Mutual respect and Charity…mmmmmmmmmm…you mean, like thread after thread with countless references to Puppet Mass, Halloween Mass, Clown Mass, and Liturgical Dancing…along with inferences or blantant proclamations to the effect of:

Here ya go, Mister NO Catholic, here’s YOUR Mass!



I have no beef with Latin Mass. I’ve attended thousands of them in my lifetime. But, the Church went a different direction back in 69. A direction that I personally liked, along with many others.

If you like it to the point that it becomes the focal point of your faith, that’s your call.

But to constantly criticize my Church for what she does, when it doesn’t meet YOUR approval, that’s a horse of a different color.

 

[ethelzguy]

Surely you don’t think the Bishops just sit in their ivory towers and come up with their decisions on their own? They listen to people and consider what is at work in their diocese before acting.

The Catholic Church is NOT a democracy, sorry.

 

[cothrige]

A revised Mass is cause for a Catholic to “suffer loss”?

The Mass is your personal property to gain or lose? This seems to underscore the issue better than I ever could. By your own admission, for some, the Latin Mass is a “property” to be held.

That is absurd. Loss does not imply property, and you know that.

Mutual respect and Charity…mmmmmmmmmm…you mean, like thread after thread with countless references to Puppet Mass, Halloween Mass, Clown Mass, and Liturgical Dancing…along with inferences or blantant proclamations to the effect of:

Here ya go, Mister NO Catholic, here’s YOUR Mass!

Well, sure, and that is a ridiculous thing to say. And I don’t remember defending anything like it.

If you like it to the point that it becomes the focal point of your faith, that’s your call.

The Mass isn’t a focal point of your faith?

But to constantly criticize my Church for what she does, when it doesn’t meet YOUR approval, that’s a horse of a different color.

What was that about property? Oh, and by the way, loved the way you put my and YOUR above in opposition. Guess we all know what you are saying about those who disagree with you.

 

[cothrige]

I see your distinction - thanks
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed b

And thank you for the conversation.

May I ask which part of Texas you are in? I was blessed to be born there, and spent the first twenty plus years of my life there, but have unfortunately been expatriated for some time since. :crying:

Patrick

 

[ethelzguy]

The Mass isn’t a focal point of your faith?

I agree with you there. The Mass is A focal point, not necessarily THE focal point of our Faith.

 

[SJP]

Have you? I don’t think so. Sure, you have argued your position opposing a liberal availability of the TLM based on some concept of popularity or democracy, an idea completely foreign to Catholic thinking. And you have criticized those who desire a greater availability of the TLM as if doing so would somehow deny you of some right or privilege, even though you argue for doing that very thing to them. And most importantly you make vast, sweeping generalizations about anybody who promotes the TLM or traditional Catholicism as being disobedient or engaged in dissent, without ever trying to explain how your disagreement and criticism of the Holy Father’s position on this issue is somehow other than disobedience itself. In all honesty the only pedestal I can see is the one you keep climbing up on.

Bravo! Bravo!

 

[ethelzguy]

Bravo! Bravo!

Touche`

 

[Conservative]

I agree with cothrige.

…
Compare:

Receive, O Holy Father,
almighty and eternal God,
this spotless host, which I,
Thine unworthy servant, offer
unto Thee, my living and true
God, for my countless sins,
trespasses, and omissions;
likewise for all here present,
and for all faithful
Christians, whether living or
dead, that it may avail both
me and them to salvation,
unto life everlasting. Amen.

With:

P: Blessed are you, Lord, God of
all creation. Through your
goodness we have this bread to
offer, which earth has given and
human hands have made. It will
become for us the bread of life.

R. Blessed be God for ever.

Are they both beautiful? Yes, the second has a nice sort of simplicity to it, but the first, in my opinion, creates a grander scope and encompasses more. I happen to prefer the first. Compare the rest: geocities.com/Vienna/Strasse/5816/compare.html

BRAVO ! Your comparison quote speaks volumes. We must ask ourselves - how often during the week - in our private prayers - do we pray for the whole world or all souls (“Faithful”) living and dead. How often do we acknowledge, as the priest does in this prayer, that we are God’s unworthy servants? If it’s only once a week at Sunday Mass, we need these prayers.
Thank you for that one, great example.