What if all the churches were gone

[az_4_faith]

This could be a distinct possibility, maybe not in my lifetime, but perhaps in my children’s and grandchildren’s.

What’s the old saying – "Them’s what separates the men from the boys . . . "

I agree that we would see an immediate separation of lukewarm Christians and those most devoted. Although silent, our unity would be key to our survival.

It wouldn’t be easy by any stretch of the word for even the most pious Christians. Truly a test of purification.

But it’s happening already all around the world. Take Saudi Arabia, one of our country’s “Allies” . . . they have a total ban on Christianity. How is that possible? Totalitarian rule.

Keep an eye on Europe . . . what happens to America will happen there first. We should have plenty of warning to prepare.

The Church can survive, even with a temporary separation of the Sacraments. Prayer is the key.

 

[Fidelis]

Islam overtake us??? Is that even possible?

Don’t think it couldn’t happen in this or any other country. Remember the seven churches that Jesus addressed in the Book of Revelation (chapters 2 and 3)? At one time, those were vibrant, thriving churches. Now, not one of them remains – they were located in an area that is now Turkey, a “secular” Moslem state that took over the church buildings, converted them to mosques (including the famous Hagia Sophia) and allows no public celebration of the Catholic Mass.

 

[Fidelis]

But what if you couldnt move. What would you do if you were stuck where you were.

I would do what Christians have always done – continue to practice my Faith and wait for God to restore the presence of his Church and her Sacraments.

You know the story of the Japanese Catholics, of course, who were evangelized by Catholic missionaries in the 1500’s. Soon after, a terrible, bloody persecution broke out. Most of the Church that wasn’t destroyed went underground, the elders of the community passing on the Faith as best they could for 100’s of years, without books or other written instruction.

When Catholics were finally allowed to return to Japan after WW II, missionaries found these remnant communities. The people there were wary and would not talk to anyone about their Faith until the newcomers could identify (in Latin!) bits and pieces of Catholic prayers that this remnant had preserved through the centuries. When they found out they could, they immediately asked for priests so that they could again recieve the Sacraments!

“I say you are Peter, and on this Rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”

 

[water]

Hi

What if America was taken over by Islamic terrorists and they turned all(all does mean all this time ) of our churches into mosques Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, Jewish.

As a christian, you are not allowed to worship Christ. If you are caught you would be killed. The only way to worship is to have secret meetings in people’s homes. You had no access to any material other then is what is in your home. No internet, no TV, no radio well except maybe what the terrorists allow you to watch.

I know this is an extreme example(although you never know) but I was just wondering what us christians would do if we were stripped of everything we are allowed to do as christians. All our religious freedoms taken away. No church, no bible study, no eucharist, no baptism, no confirmation, nothing that has to do with the church.

What would you do?

This has happened and is happening to some third world country. Look at China, even up until today, people do not have freedoom of religion. Another country, my own, Vietnam, people were executed for being Catholics. When Communist came, they gave all of us Catholic hard-time.

Despite of what they have been doing, Catholics still grow strong in Vietnam, and great thanks to the Saints who died for the faith.

 

[manualman]

I fear that history will show a fairly brief 350 year period (ending about 6 years ago) in which Islam was NOT a major threat to western civilization.

But for now, I think your scenario is more likely to be forced on us by secular lawsuit lawyers than psychotic imams.

 

[Publisher]

Hi

What if America was taken over by Islamic terrorists and they turned all(all does mean all this time ) of our churches into mosques Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, Jewish.

As a christian, you are not allowed to worship Christ. If you are caught you would be killed. The only way to worship is to have secret meetings in people’s homes. You had no access to any material other then is what is in your home. No internet, no TV, no radio well except maybe what the terrorists allow you to watch.

I know this is an extreme example(although you never know) but I was just wondering what us christians would do if we were stripped of everything we are allowed to do as christians. All our religious freedoms taken away. No church, no bible study, no eucharist, no baptism, no confirmation, nothing that has to do with the church.

What would you do?

We, Friends, would do what we do each First Day…go into Meeting and wait upon the Lord in the Living Silence and wait for Him to speak His Word.

We have no crosses, no prayer books, no alters. Our meeting houses are very plain…no pictures, no statues…usually chairs set in rows facing one another…or rows of pews facing one another…and the “facing bench” where the Clerk of the Meeting and the Meeting Recorder and Elders sit.or the leader of the meeting. Then we worship and Listen to the Presence in our midst. Each giving ministry to the other as the Light leads.

At the appointed time when the Spirit instructs the meeting to close, the one designated to end it, turns to his or her neighbor, and offers their hand…all shake hands and meeting is over…then we have announcements and fellowship.

 

[Alexius]

There is plenty of 20th century precedent, though maybe not so much under Islam. Many Catholics and other denoms in Europe had to make that choice during the 1930s and 1940s. Lots went to the work camps and gas chambers. Most just went along with the Nazi program. The recent movie with Jon Voigt playing Pope John Paul II spends quite a bit of time describing the circumstances that Christians lived under in Poland, first under the Nazis, and then under the Communists. John Paul basically went to seminary underground, and had several close calls with the authorities.

So, it has happened in modern times, in civilized countries. We shouldn’t think it couldn’t happen here. More likely, though, is that secularism will make the practice of true Christianity so painful, that it will be a nearly irresistable type of persecution.

I would hide priests and lead a quiet life in secrecy. Perhaps I’d sabotage the enemy behind the lines like my Polish brethren during WWII and save people from persecution . It’d be like a James Bond mission - fun…for a day …

Don’t think it couldn’t happen in this or any other country. Remember the seven churches that Jesus addressed in the Book of Revelation (chapters 2 and 3)? At one time, those were vibrant, thriving churches. Now, not one of them remains – they were located in an area that is now Turkey, a “secular” Moslem state that took over the church buildings, converted them to mosques (including the famous Hagia Sophia) and allows no public celebration of the Catholic Mass.

Supposedly, the Muslim leadership of the capturing force of Constantinople (Mehmet II ?) signed a pact stopping the conversion of churches into mosques aswell as stopping their destruction. He was the same one who preserved the beautiful iconic frescoes in the Hagia Sophia by having them plastered over rather than destroyed and he also allowed Christians to openly practice their faith. He was one of the “good” rulers, but unfortunately his son and other later rulers ignored the pact and continued to persecute the Church…

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Hi

What if America was taken over by Islamic terrorists and they turned all(all does mean all this time ) of our churches into mosques Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, Jewish.

As a christian, you are not allowed to worship Christ. If you are caught you would be killed. The only way to worship is to have secret meetings in people’s homes. You had no access to any material other then is what is in your home. No internet, no TV, no radio well except maybe what the terrorists allow you to watch.

I know this is an extreme example(although you never know) but I was just wondering what us christians would do if we were stripped of everything we are allowed to do as christians. All our religious freedoms taken away. No church, no bible study, no eucharist, no baptism, no confirmation, nothing that has to do with the church.

What would you do?

I have no idea I think no one can know, until tested.​

I would hate to lose the Bible - I can’t imagine not having one. Yet that is how millions have to get by.

Richard Wurmbrand (who was imprisoned & tortured for his testimony to Christ in post-war Romania) describes in one of his books how he & others were brain-washed. I think that would be my greatest fear - because without one’s wits, I don’t see how one can pray. OTOH - we have to begin in, with, from God - always: so what we think or fear or hope, is (in a sense) not very important: what He does, is.

If trial X has not befallen us, I don’t think it’s a good idea to anticipate it (see Matthew 6). ##

 

[cestusdei]

This has happened before. It happened in Russia until the fall of communism. What did they do? The one thing they salvaged was the rosary. They used it to teach the basic prayers and beliefs. Also they could baptize and marry without a priest. So the Church did survive and does despite terrible conditions.

 

[slyboots]

Has no one considered the possibility that if any other faith but one is forbidden then those who were not previously of that faith would be required to publicly practice that particular faith? Or else?
Secret Jews, secret protestants, secret Catholics…But in public in order to hold jobs, enroll one’s children in school, or even indulge in commerce one might have to “burn incense to Caesar” which the early Christians refused to do.

 

[LilyM]

Has no one considered the possibility that if any other faith but one is forbidden then those who were not previously of that faith would be required to publicly practice that particular faith? Or else?
Secret Jews, secret protestants, secret Catholics…But in public in order to hold jobs, enroll one’s children in school, or even indulge in commerce one might have to “burn incense to Caesar” which the early Christians refused to do.

Of course, it was part and parcel of life during the Roman Imperial persecutions, the persecutions in England under Elizabeth I, and my parents and their families have certainly suffered workwise and in a dozen other ways as devout Catholics in Communist Eastern Europe.

And like all of the martyrs and those who have paid for being Catholic and Christian in other ways, I hope and pray I’ll have the courage of my convictions and suffer willingly for my faith rather than deny it at all.

 

[slyboots]

My point is that everyone seems to be talking about being secret Catholics at home. It’s true that we can create a domestic Church in our homes and hearts. But in order to live in the public realm what will you do? How far will you go to see that your children have food? And if you teach your children the faith at home how will they deal with the other religion’s pressure on them to convert? Will we accept that our children are second class citizens at best? Or see them abused for the faith?
What I thought I understood was a great many secret Catholics at the time of the English Catholic persecution appeared to be protestant in public. Correct me please if I am wrong. Notable exceptions were folks like St Thomas More, St Edmund Campion, John Fisher, Margaret Clitherow etc.
Jews during the Spanish Inquisition, I have read, often showed a public face of conversion. But they were in reality still Jews.
I believe that many Jewish children were taken into Christian homes during the Nazi regime. These children had falsified baptismal certificates and lived as did their Christian families. Although they did not in actuality convert.
Being a martyr for one’s faith is not easy. But I feel sure it is nothing compared to seeing your child maltreated or martyred.
Ok. So you have your faith and you pray and occasionally happen upon a clandestine Mass. These are all important things.
But what do you do in public?

 

[RNRobert]

In the 20’s and 30’s, the Mexican government persecuted Catholics severely. Priests travelled in disguise and adminstered the sacraments in peoples homes. Many of them were caught, and were executed with the words *“Viva Christo Rey” *(Long live Christ the King) on their lips. I recently read about one of these priests, Blessed Miguel Pro. Also, this month’s Columbia magazine cover article was about Rafael Guizar Valencia a bishop during that time who was recently canonized. In 1931, the governor of Veracruz ordered the bishop shot on site. The bishop marched into the governor’s office, and told him that if he wanted him dead, the governor would have to shoot him personally. The governor backed down (although the bishop was forced to leave Veracruz.

 

[rciadan]

Persecution of the Church could come sooner than any of you expect. I believe it may happen in our lifetimes (in the next ten to twenty years). Read worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=54260
Also, notice that in the history of the Catholic Church, she has always grown the most when persecuted. I have said it before and I’ll say it again- Some of us on these forums may well be called to martydom.

 

[suupah]

I would get it over with and be martyrd. a little pain with eternal gain. Who would want to spend their life in such persecution anyway. I would just pack it up, kiss a few people and “go home”.

 

[mitabrev]

Hi All,

Religious oppression?
I see it all around me everytime my country is brainwashed on “earths greatest “Democracy””.
I’m really FEARING for the religous freedom of my children, and grandchildren.
Pray the EU reforms, for the sake of Christ.
It could be a wonderfull thing, the EU, if it was a democracy.

Keep an eye on Europe . . . what happens to America will happen there first. We should have plenty of warning to prepare.

The below quote is typical EU style

More likely, though, is that secularism will make the practice of true Christianity so painful, that it will be a nearly irresistable type of persecution.

.
It’s ilegal for Muslims to wear headscarves in France.
Illegal for Jews to wear Skull Caps (I think thats what its called, apologies for offence if it’s not)
Illegal for Christians to wear Crucifix, all in France but its starting to creep into other members of the EU.
For Example, there was a case recently of a lady who was effectivly fired from her job in Brittish Airways for wearing a crucifix.
Lets hope the silly blind govermnents of the EU, who now really only have the embarassing job of rubberstamping laws handed down from Brussels, will wake up, and start taking notice of whats taking place all around them.
In the meantime, all I can do is pray, and shudder at what the future, powerfull, Godless EU will do.

 

[RNRobert]

Also, notice that in the history of the Catholic Church, she has always grown the most when persecuted. I have said it before and I’ll say it again- Some of us on these forums may well be called to martydom.

As someone once said:

“The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church.”

 

[mitabrev]

Persecution of the Church could come sooner than any of you expect. I believe it may happen in our lifetimes (in the next ten to twenty years). Read worldnetdaily.com/news/ar…TICLE_ID=54260

Interesting article rciadan,
Political correctness is really the new form of Fascism.
God help us all.

 

[LilyM]

My point is that everyone seems to be talking about being secret Catholics at home. It’s true that we can create a domestic Church in our homes and hearts. But in order to live in the public realm what will you do? How far will you go to see that your children have food? And if you teach your children the faith at home how will they deal with the other religion’s pressure on them to convert? Will we accept that our children are second class citizens at best? Or see them abused for the faith?
What I thought I understood was a great many secret Catholics at the time of the English Catholic persecution appeared to be protestant in public. Correct me please if I am wrong. Notable exceptions were folks like St Thomas More, St Edmund Campion, John Fisher, Margaret Clitherow etc.
Jews during the Spanish Inquisition, I have read, often showed a public face of conversion. But they were in reality still Jews.
I believe that many Jewish children were taken into Christian homes during the Nazi regime. These children had falsified baptismal certificates and lived as did their Christian families. Although they did not in actuality convert.
Being a martyr for one’s faith is not easy. But I feel sure it is nothing compared to seeing your child maltreated or martyred.
Ok. So you have your faith and you pray and occasionally happen upon a clandestine Mass. These are all important things.
But what do you do in public?

There was nothing secret at all about More, Fisher, or Clitherow. They were quite open in their disagreement with the English break with Rome. I believe Campion actually converted to Catholicism a little later in life. And he did use an assumed name after his reception as a Jesuit, but I don’t believe he pretended to be Anglican or any other faith to save his skin.

If one cannot receive the sacraments for whatever reason, or must celebrate Mass underground, that’s one thing, since it’s beyond one’s control in any event.

Now there were at least some English Catholics who moved to other countries where they could freely practice their faith rather than stay to be persecuted. In essence this is what those who fled Communist countries have chosen as well. Nothing wrong with that at all, of course, in fact it’s preferable to martyrdom.

But none of the Roman martyrs nor the English saints you’ve mentioned ever pretended to be or acted as anything other than the Catholic Christians they were. And the Church doesn’t seem to hold well with the idea of pretending to be another faith for the sake of saving your skin.

Remember the words of Christ - ‘if any of you denies me before men, I will deny him before my Father’. I certainly hope I would have the courage to remember them and teach them to my children as well.

 

[slyboots]

There was nothing secret at all about More, Fisher, or Clitherow. They were quite open in their disagreement with the English break with Rome. I believe Campion actually converted to Catholicism a little later in life. And he did use an assumed name after his reception as a Jesuit, but I don’t believe he pretended to be Anglican or any other faith to save his skin.

If one cannot receive the sacraments for whatever reason, or must celebrate Mass underground, that’s one thing, since it’s beyond one’s control in any event.

Now there were at least some English Catholics who moved to other countries where they could freely practice their faith rather than stay to be persecuted. In essence this is what those who fled Communist countries have chosen as well. Nothing wrong with that at all, of course, in fact it’s preferable to martyrdom.

But none of the Roman martyrs nor the English saints you’ve mentioned ever pretended to be or acted as anything other than the Catholic Christians they were. And the Church doesn’t seem to hold well with the idea of pretending to be another faith for the sake of saving your skin.

Remember the words of Christ - ‘if any of you denies me before men, I will deny him before my Father’. I certainly hope I would have the courage to remember them and teach them to my children as well.

Lily,
I said those folks I mentioned by name were notable exceptions. They did not present a different face for the public than they did in private.
I was referring to those thousands who did remain in England and remained in positions of power by keeping their faiths secret. And lived to tell the tale.
But what I was wondering is how folks on this thread feel they could deal with the oppression in the present time if Christianity was banned? Things like watching their children abused for their faith if indeed they are not hiding their faiths.
Or how they would cope in public where they could not be seen as Catholics? Do they just intend to walk out into the streets yelling “Jesus is Lord” and wait for the torturers to make martyrs of them? Or try to live quietly in a society that will expect them to pray when they pray, follow their book, accept their god?
Martyrdom requires committment as we all know. I just don’t know how many of us are really up to it.