What if God Gave Us Proof?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Neil_Anthony
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Gottle_of_Geer said:

These can always be wrong 😦​

It may be highly significant that Jesus Himself treated His identity as a secret: as something that could be known only by revelation. There is a lot of emphasis on serecy in the gospels, & on badffled expectations - He is continually puzzled over, for people do not know what to “make of” Him.

1 Corinthians 1 is crucial - literally:
  • 1Cr 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
  • 1Cr 1:18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
  • 1Cr 1:19 For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the cleverness of the clever I will thwart.”
  • 1Cr 1:20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
  • 1Cr 1:21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.
  • 1Cr 1:22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom,
  • 1Cr 1:23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles,
  • 1Cr 1:24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
  • 1Cr 1:25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
    Compare that with:
  • Mat 16:13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do men say that the Son of man is?”
  • Mat 16:14 And they said, “Some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
  • Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
  • Mat 16:20 Then he strictly charged the disciples to tell no one that he was the Christ.
  • Mat 16:21 From that time Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised.
  • Mat 16:22 And Peter took him and began to rebuke him, saying, “God forbid, Lord! This shall never happen to you.”
    The Cross is the only sign we are given - it reveals Christ to some, & conceals Him from others. There is no feeding of the appetite for wonders here; because the startling & the Divine are not the same: anyone can do miracles - they prove nothing at all. But anything can be a sign, no matter how “ordinary” - a pregnant woman or a crucified Jew, say: both of them very unamazing in Roman Judaea. Sensation-seeking =//= faith.
Click to expand...
Well done, however were we talking about the proof of God’s existence? not the identity of Jesus Christ. “The fool has said in his heart there is no God.” The Catholic Church teaches that God can be known by way of reason, “for they are without excuse, who have seen all He has created.” Logic and reason point to God Almighty and accompany revelation.
 
SimonArizona said:
were we talking about the proof of God’s existence?
Click to expand...
**Right! And we had 162 answers or questions or more or less queer statements of disbelieve.
In fact - there where several ever so good answers. I doubt if they all had been red.
Some still wont believe even when the Jesus Himself spoke to them, so much was in vain - see here:
Luke 16:31:
He said to him, If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.
**
 
Bruno_Schulz said:
Right! And we had 162 answers or questions or more or less queer statements of disbelieve.
In fact - there where several ever so good answers. I doubt if they all had been red.
Some still wont believe even when the Jesus Himself spoke to them, so much was in vain - see here:
Luke 16:31:
He said to him, If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.
Click to expand...
If we are to believe the Bible, Jesus speaking to us himself would be no help…

Matt 13:13-15
Therefore speak I(Jesus) to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand… lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Regardless of how much “truth hunger” a person had, the purpose of the parable was to harden the people so that they would not see the truth and convert. If a listener wasn’t privy to the private conversations of Jesus with his immediate followers, they were out of luck as far as the truth was concerned. Jesus didn’t want outside listeners to know that the parables were not designed to reveal the truth. They apparently were designed to keep many people confused.

Best,
Leela
 
Leela said:
If we are to believe the Bible, Jesus speaking to us himself would be no help…

Matt 13:13-15
Therefore speak I(Jesus) to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand… lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Regardless of how much “truth hunger” a person had, the purpose of the parable was to harden the people so that they would not see the truth and convert. If a listener wasn’t privy to the private conversations of Jesus with his immediate followers, they were out of luck as far as the truth was concerned. Jesus didn’t want outside listeners to know that the parables were not designed to reveal the truth. They apparently were designed to keep many people confused.

Best,
Leela
Click to expand...
did you just qoute from the Scripture whose validity you deny?

and then you misinterpret it, remember, Jesus is God, the prophets were not:)
 
Leela said:
the purpose of the parable was to harden the people so that they would not see the truth and convert…
Click to expand...
**

Our dear Leela 🙂 of course you’d react such – definitely I knew you would. I was just waiting for you to. (if I where you, I had done so too).

Matt 13:13-15 is meant a lot different from what you imagine.
It would be humanising Jesus (Jesus war fully human and fully God at the same time) as many interpret Jesus intentions in a way they understand them (wrongly).

All disbelievers really ought to give room to the idea, that their interpretation of Jesus might be fully wrong and the teaching of the Church absolutely right.
Don’t think that’s an insolence. The odds – thinking of 2000 years of church research and …years of private attempt to bend things the ones own way (any nonbelievers way of thinking) are on the side of the church.
Besides the Church, there are Billions of Christians, who (like me) thank God every day anew, that we “know” God. Know God, for Jesus revelation of His father – in and through the will of God.

In fact, if God had not revealed Himself anew in the New Testament, we’d just know what Moses and the Prophets had told us. Even then, here where ever such a lot who believed in God.
Why is that so?

Because those believing in God, do not just believe in God as one would believe in say - the weather-forecast or some odd scientists releases about the origin of earth, neither would they believe in God, for some privileges they might avail on public life. In fact they don’t, for they felt the nearness of the existing God!

A lot of nuisance and annoyance we earn from those, who call it insane to believe. It always had been so. St. Paul said in 1 Corinthians 1:18:
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.<
Click to expand...
The mentioned Billions of Christians who thank every day God for having the grace to „know God“ (I pray every Day: “THANK YOU DEAR GOD, THAT I DO KNOW YOU“ is definitely not because we hope there is “a God” because all of us felt there is God! and therefore we Christians don’t just believe, but KNOW!

Now – it’s not God who needs us – it’s vice versa: It’s us who need God. And don’t say, for we think we need God, we say there is God. NO!
You said before, all you want, is to give your Children a good life (or somet like this). OK. We all want this.

Can you imagine, how happy I was as a child, when I knew God was with me!?
When I knew I never was alone!? When I as a child knew God loves me and I will be with God one day!? When my prayers where fulfilled!? Can you imagine?

How dreadful, when a child in need in just on it’s own, because his mother told him, there is no God. How terrible alone then this child and later adult is!

Now to Matt 13:13 and following:
This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

Why is that so in so many’s and in your case? Because this people’s heart has become calloused.
But Jesus adds:
If they open their hearts and are willing to understand with their hearts and turn; I WOULD HEAL THEM.

Now – isn’t that a great offer of God’s. God Himself as He promises, will reunite with people who formerly denied Him. So give yourself a chance so this happens. Do it for the benefit of your Children. They will be thankful in eternity – plus have a great life.

How much do you think I thank God and am greatful for, that my son Bjoern (see his picture in the Gallerie of Gott-Kirche-Glaube-isthier.de ) who was murdered in 1997 I brought up religious and in the knowledge of God. I thank God for that every day! Do alike and it’ll be the best you ever could do for your children. This way, I KNOW I will see him again in Gods Kingdom!
**
 
Leela said:
If we are to believe the Bible, Jesus speaking to us himself would be no help…

Matt 13:13-15
Therefore speak I(Jesus) to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand… lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Regardless of how much “truth hunger” a person had, the purpose of the parable was to harden the people so that they would not see the truth and convert. If a listener wasn’t privy to the private conversations of Jesus with his immediate followers, they were out of luck as far as the truth was concerned. Jesus didn’t want outside listeners to know that the parables were not designed to reveal the truth. They apparently were designed to keep many people confused.

Best,
Leela
Click to expand...
Hi Leela,

I think there is a lot of truth to what you are saying, even though I disagree with your conclusion. What Jesus is referring to here is that in order to gain wisdom from God, we must open our hearts and enter into prayer, and God will explain to us the meaning of the parables, and many other things.

To a non-believer, that might be another way of saying that we have to be pre-disposed to want to see and to want to believe. And you’re correct, that is one of the requirements. We have to earnestly seek God to find Him.

And yes, that explains why there are so many different religions. People are searching for answers to the mysteries of life.

Something special about Christianity is that Jesus did not promote himself, he left that to those who were closest to him. There’s a lot more credibility in close followers who would have known if Jesus was a fraud, who were willing to die for what they were preaching about him. That’s not at all the same as a magician who makes a fortune off of doing magic tricks for the ignorant.
 
Gottle_of_Geer said:

Someone spoke of “Blinding Magnificence”; to take a hint from that: if God appeared, it would destroy us. IOW, for us to survive at all, God cannot show Himself. So in a sense the universe is designed to favour agnosticism & atheism.​

Click to expand...
But, He spends so much time and effort revealing himself - why?
Gottle_of_Geer said:
And, love that can be proved conclusively, is not love. It is its own bond, & needs nothing but itself. A God Who could be proved to exist would be utterly worthless (to put it nicely). This is why using miracles as proof of God is so foul & disgusting - it destroys faith in the very act of proving it; & why apologetics is not real theology at all.
Click to expand...
So, what do we do with miracles? We can’t ignore them.

JD
 
CatsAndDogs said:
My point isn’t (wasn’t) that ALL people “fall away” from belief that “God is love” to “God is either evil or irrelevantly nonexistent”, but that those who DO do so because they were “hurt” by the circumstances of life and want to be “physically and immediately” relieved of their suffering without understanding what “suffering” is for.
Click to expand...
So, you think that everyone who “falls away” does so because of some painful circumstance in their lives? Are there no other possible reasons?

JD
 
Leela said:
But there are many questionable assumptions built into this famous wager? One is the notion that people do not pay a terrible price for religious faith. It seems worth remembering what sort of costs we are incurring on account of religion. With destructive technology now spreading throughout the world with 21st century efficiency, what is the social cost of millions of Muslims believing in the metaphysics of martyrdom? Who would like to put a price on the deep religious differences that the Sunni and the Shia are now expressing in Iraq? What is the net effect of so many Jewish settlers believing that the Creator of the universe promised them a patch of desert on the Mediterranean? What have been the psychological costs imposed by Christianity’s anxiety about sex these last seventy generations? The current costs of religion are incalculable.
Click to expand...
But, Leela, you’re wrong. Every one of your assumptions is beyond questionable: You suggest that “. . .people pay a terrible price for religious faith”. You are not, in fact, talking about Christian religious faith; you are, instead, talking about “radical Islam”. The fact that you lump it into the category, “religious faith,” is, to say the least, nothing more than an attempt to categorize it for your own purposes - that of perpetuating the argument.

As far as the “net effect” on the Jews, what is the “cause” and what is the “effect”? Could it be that Israel is surrounded by “radical” Arabs and they are Hebrew? Is it not more probable that the relationship is more like the problems faced by skin color here in the US? Or, culture and skin color in South America regardless of “religion”? Or, are you so sure that it is “religion” that is the cause?

As to the “anxiety about sex,” what problems? Hmmm? Rape certainly exists in Catholic cultures, but, the perpetrators are most often “secular” and “materialists”. I’d be willing to wager that “real” Catholics and Christians do not perpetrate this crime.

I am guessing that you had other “problems” in mind when you wrote the last sentence, so, what problems do you speak of?

JD
 
Leela:
warpspeedpetey said:
please dont be further offended but admitting ones lack of knowledge concerning the origin of the observable universe just doesnt matter, one has the tools available too all of us, there is an observable universe with reams of empirical data for one to compare any conjecture about those origins.

one can use Reason and and the empirical universe to deduce certain facts, thats how science operates (in general).

those same tools can be applied to any argument for or against a G-d, you are not admitting a lack of knowledge in our origins, you are just admitting to a lack of desire too find out, and from that people like us deduce that such an investigation may be detrimental to what ever beliefs you hold

further without that most basic of premises argued than no other premise you assert will have as much value to us, because for us that is the core issue, all others rest on that.

if i cared too spend the time reading harris, dawkins, and hitchens, and then studied the basics of moral philosophy then i could debate those issues with meaning that you could understand, taking whatever position fit, but you came here, not to forums for Moral philosophy, so you should expect to argue with some understanding of our methodology, and how it differs with your own. you must use our language, so to speak.

otherwise your motives may well be questioned. after all if we dont “speak the same language” than how can we learn from you?

thats the whole point of my other thread, to get people to examine their real interior motives. no matter what those motives are you are welcome here, but you should expect to occasionally get “the business”🙂
Click to expand...
I concur.

Leela, know that we LOVE you. Know that we would like you WITH us. Know that we want you to BRING your family. Know that we will not force you to stay. Many of us were not cradle Catholics. We found our way in and we’re staying. We’ll debate you all you want, and sometimes get really, really exasperated with you; but, we still love you, respect you and want you with us.

There are so many books, written by so many authors. There’s so much richness and background in and about the Church that we can’t say it all in a few minutes on fora like this. If you come, with nothing more than a belief that you will find - you WILL find. And, then you will discover “faith”.

PLEASE come with us.

JD
P.S. This not meant to be corny. There’s not a Catholic on this board that isn’t 100% with me. Isn’t THAT interesting?
 
:bigyikes:
warpspeedpetey said:
dont forget Reason alone is insufficient, too please G-d, one must also have Faith
Click to expand...
Reason Alone proves God, the Creator, As does Science. A Pope in the 1800’s so declared, based on so Obvious things. How does one think so very complex humans came into existence? Chance? Atoms crashing together Just the Right way? Where did First atom come from? Where do electric charges, gravity, mathematic laws come from? Probably The most famous of atheists (they number 1-3% of world population), Mathematician/Astronomer Steve Hawkin declared about 6 years ago that he has changed to Deist (Believer in God). At the World News conference drawn by his announcement, Dr Hawkin was asked what god he believed in. He answered “The Creator of the Laws of Mathematics”.
Any more questions? I have one. Where did the Universe come from? Nope, not always here. Opposite! According to the now Proven “Big Bang Theory” (Of Catholic Priest/Scientist Fr/Dr Georges LeMaitre, From a ‘subatomic particle’ (Also known as from Nothing 🙂 14 Billion years ago to Millions of Galaxies, Rapidly still expanding in Space, now proven fact in last few decades. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_bang
 
Sailka said:
:bigyikes:

Reason Alone proves God, the Creator, As does Science. A Pope in the 1800’s so declared, based on so Obvious things. How does one think so very complex humans came into existence? Chance? Atoms crashing together Just the Right way? Where did First atom come from? Where do electric charges, gravity, mathematic laws come from? Probably The most famous of atheists (they number 1-3% of world population), Mathematician/Astronomer Steve Hawkin declared about 6 years ago that he has changed to Deist (Believer in God). At the World News conference drawn by his announcement, Dr Hawkin was asked what god he believed in. He answered “The Creator of the Laws of Mathematics”.
Any more questions? I have one. Where did the Universe come from? Nope, not always here. Opposite! According to the now Proven “Big Bang Theory” (Of Catholic Priest/Scientist Fr/Dr Georges LeMaitre, From a ‘subatomic particle’ (Also known as from Nothing 🙂 14 Billion years ago to Millions of Galaxies, Rapidly still expanding in Space, now proven fact in last few decades. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_bang
Click to expand...
you may be well pleased to read the the thread "is the ‘i dont know’ argument valid’’

there is some vanishingly small possibility that i might have found a teeny weeny flaw in the atheistic argument that one cannot know G-d exists, but i need help to build on my thoughts:)
 
warpspeedpetey said:
you may be well pleased to read the the thread "is the ‘i dont know’ argument valid’’

there is some vanishingly small possibility that i might have found a teeny weeny flaw in the atheistic argument that one cannot know G-d exists, but i need help to build on my thoughts:)
Click to expand...
Agnostics rather than atheists claim that one cannot know whether or not God exists. I don’t believe in God but I am not agnostic because I recognize that if such a God as describe din the Bible actually exists, it would be trivially easy for him to demonstrate his existence. It seems to me that either God exists or he requires that he be believed in based on ambiguous evidence.

Best,
Leela
 
Leela said:
Agnostics rather than atheists claim that one cannot know whether or not God exists. I don’t believe in God but I am not agnostic because I recognize that if such a God as describe din the Bible actually exists, it would be trivially easy for him to demonstrate his existence. It seems to me that either God exists or he requires that he be believed in based on ambiguous evidence.

Best,
Leela
Click to expand...
you have posted several times the “i don’t know argument” yourself,

if you wish to discuss the subject referenced in my quoted post the referenced thread is the appropriate place:)

it doesn’t matter what variety of philosophizer makes the argument,

i assert the “i don’t know argument” is logically inconsistent

that said

the implication of your post seems to be that you disbelieve because G-d doesn’t perform the action of “demonstrating his existence”. an X-ray has never been demonstrated to me yet but i believe they exist. im sure you do to.

he has demonstrated his existence to a great many people, on grounds that they found convincing,

very, very many of those people are more intelligent and educated in these subjects than i, and i guarantee you that the same applies to you

and yes as i have repeatedly stated, in the Christian Scriptures Faith is required.

reason alone is an insufficient tool to have a relationship with G-d

and frankly what do you expect?

if someone obviously doesn’t like you, you probably don’t go out of your way to talk to them do you?

so why would G-d go out of his way to prove anything to you?

yet here you are struggling valiantly to prove your ideas to a bunch of Catholics, doesn’t make much sense does it?

maybe, just maybe, He is demonstrating his existence to you

take heart, you think me strange for the depth of my faith

little do you know that in my youth, i was you so to speak.

you stand at the head of the path, i stand down it only a little further along.

the trip is hard, long and strange, it will devour your pride, crush your heart, and destroy you.

but from the ashes of your reason real Faith emerges

any way all these word are just so much smoke, when i say them

but Christ will seduce you, he will keep calling until you follow

but for now let us take some small pleasure in the debate:)
 
Leela said:
Agnostics rather than atheists claim that one cannot know whether or not God exists. I don’t believe in God but I am not agnostic because I recognize that if such a God as describe din the Bible actually exists, it would be trivially easy for him to demonstrate his existence. It seems to me that either God exists or he requires that he be believed in based on ambiguous evidence.

Best,
Leela
Click to expand...
Hi Leela! Dr Steve Hawkin was The Most famous Atheist in the world. He “Knew” there Is No God. Until he started thinking… Where everything came from??? That is when he became Deist: Some kind of Creator God: The Laws of Mathematics are no accident! Creation of The Master Intelligence. Created Something, Everything, from Nothing. Please see my Post #172 on The Proof of The Creator God. :tiphat: :whistle:
 
Sailka said:
Hi Leela! Dr Steve Hawkin was The Most famous Atheist in the world. He “Knew” there Is No God. Until he started thinking… Where everything came from??? That is when he became Deist: Some kind of Creator God: The Laws of Mathematics are no accident! Creation of The Master Intelligence. Created Something, Everything, from Nothing. Please see my Post #172 on The Proof of The Creator God. :tiphat: :whistle:
Click to expand...
please see my OP on the “is the i don’t know answer valid” thread. i need help formulating a proper argument
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top