What if God Gave Us Proof?

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**I saw in an atheist-forum (we have a lot of them) same and similar films – used as “argument” against believe in God.

One doesn’t have to look at or into the universe, to find and see greatest pictures of incredible beauty and grandiosity – same we find in smallest molecules a well as around us in “normal size”.

To an atheist, all this harmony is matter of coincidence after the big bang.
Actually a case of idiocy to believe beauty origins in chaos and nothing.

That’s not at all new though. At all times; even long before and at Jesus time on earth, folks thought it’s “cool” not to believe in God, because they don’t get provided with continuous prove of God.
Just see this URL:
guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/oct/21/religion-advertising
I heard the initiators last night on TV. It was nothing but complex emptiness.
Don’t you too wonder, what they actually think is “great” in not believing in God???
What do they have – we don’t?
Which advantage has an atheist in his empty live, compared to a Christian in his life with God?

Wherever a Christian is; might it be the most ugly and deserted or horrifying place in the world, he can ALWAYS speak to God – he’s never alone. No matter where he is or what he does.
What does an atheist have???
What about atheism is “cool” ?
**
 
Hello Bruno,
Psychological research suggests spirituality has to do with a sense for the sacred, the holy, the numinous, the epiphanic. I think a-religious people lack this sensitivity. Also I think atheism has a lot to do with individualism and the reluctance to submit to any authority, be it a transcendental Authority or their representatives down below. And atheism has of course a lot to do with fundamentalism, religion turned into narrow-mindedness, simplistic orthodoxy, and highly intolerant towards deviant thinking - really the most ugly and suicidal face of religion. Considering this latter, I think for instance Al Kaida and some forms of U.S.- Evangelicalism very much are sources of atheism. They seem to ask for the statement: “Look believers!! What stupid, narrow-minded and aggressive people !!!” But to me spirituality and religion have to do with a kind of wonder in experiencing the world, taking it in, and sensing the Mystery behind it.

And by the way, this Sombrero Galaxy… This thread started out with God writing in the sky something like: 'Hi there ! I’m here ! Yes, I exist !!" But it is of course thus that if you can’t see God everywhere, you can’t see him nowhere.
 
Hello Bruno,
Psychological research suggests spirituality has to do with a sense for the sacred, the holy, the numinous, the epiphanic. I think a-religious people lack this sensitivity. Also I think atheism has a lot to do with individualism and the reluctance to submit to any authority, be it a transcendental Authority or their representatives down below. And atheism has of course a lot to do with fundamentalism, religion turned into narrow-mindedness, simplistic orthodoxy, and highly intolerant towards deviant thinking - really the most ugly and suicidal face of religion. Considering this latter, I think for instance Al Kaida and some forms of U.S.- Evangelicalism very much are sources of atheism. They seem to ask for the statement: “Look believers!! What stupid, narrow-minded and aggressive people !!!” But to me spirituality and religion have to do with a kind of wonder in experiencing the world, taking it in, and sensing the Mystery behind it.
.
Hi Benedict,

In my experience athiests do not lack any sensitivity and are ust as capable as anyone else at experiencing wonder. The following quotes on Albert Einstein are good examples:

The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed.

A human being is a part of a whole, called by us ‘universe’, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest… a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty.

The eternal mystery of the world is its comprehensibility.

There are two ways to live your life - one is as though nothing is a miracle, the other is as though everything is a miracle.

I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it. (Albert Einstein, 1954)

The most beautiful and most profound experience is the sensation of the mystical. It is the sower of all true science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead. To know that what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty which our dull faculties can comprehend only in their primitive forms - this knowledge, this feeling is at the center of true religiousness.
( Albert Einstein - The Merging of Spirit and Science)

As far as I can tell, what distinguishes atheists is that they do not want to pretend to know things that they don’t know.

Best,
Leela
 
Does not believing in a personal God make you an atheist?
I wasn’t referring to a specific God or specific religion, but to religious experience in general. And I think Einstein examplary had a sense for epiphane religious experience - I think he tended towards Spinoza.

Subsequently it always surprizes me that atheists know so much. They know for instance that God - by whatever definition - doesn’t exist. And in for instance the former communist states this notion was the Absolute Truth that sanctioned the terror against millions of people.

To me it is important that we understand that religious or non-religious notions are determined by psychological, cultural and even geographical factors, without ever being able to determine the ultimate and true nature of reality. We have to bear each other in trying to live together. Knowing that if we don’t, we easily can bom ourselves into the stone age.
 
Does not believing in a personal God make you an atheist?
I think so, but I don’t know. Atheist is a term that believers coined to talk about nonbelievers. I don’t like to call myself an atheist anymore than I would call myself a nonracist or a nonastrologer.
cranster said:
I wasn’t referring to a specific God or specific religion, but to religious experience in general. And I think Einstein examplary had a sense for epiphane religious experience - I think he tended towards Spinoza.
I differ from a lot of atheists in thinking that religion is based on real mystical experience; however, I think that institutionalized religion is far too concerned with what Moses said when he came down from the mountain rather than what he experienced at the top.

Consider the following account:
"I recently spent an afternoon on the northwestern shore of the Sea of Galilee, atop the mount where Jesus is believed to have preached his most famous sermon. It was an infernally hot day, and the sanctuary was crowded with Christian pilgrims from many continents. Some gathered silently in the shade, while others staggered in the noonday sun, taking photographs.

As I sat and gazed upon the surrounding hills gently sloping to an inland sea, a feeling of peace came over me. It soon grew to a blissful stillness that silenced my thoughts. In an instant, the sense of being a separate self—an “I” or a “me”—vanished. Everything was as it had been—the cloudless sky, the pilgrims clutching their bottles of water—but I no longer felt like I was separate from the scene, peering out at the world from behind my eyes. Only the world remained.

The experience lasted just a few moments, but returned many times as I gazed out over the land where Jesus is believed to have walked, gathered his apostles, and worked many of his miracles. If I were a Christian, I would undoubtedly interpret this experience in Christian terms. I might believe that I had glimpsed the oneness of God, or felt the descent of the Holy Spirit.But I am not a Christian.

If I were a Hindu, I might talk about “Brahman,” the eternal Self, of which all individual minds are thought to be a mere modification. But I am not a Hindu. If I were a Buddhist, I might talk about the “dharmakaya of emptiness” in which all apparent things manifest. But I am not a Buddhist.

As someone who is simply making his best effort to be a rational human being, I am very slow to draw metaphysical conclusions from experiences of this sort. The truth is, I experience what I would call the “selflessness of consciousness” rather often, wherever I happen to meditate—be it in a Buddhist monastery, a Hindu temple, or while having my teeth cleaned. Consequently, the fact that I also had this experience at a Christian holy site does not lend an ounce of credibility to the doctrine of Christianity.

There is no question that people have “spiritual” experiences (I use words like “spiritual” and “mystical” in scare quotes, because they come to us trailing a long tail of metaphysical debris). Every culture has produced people who have gone off into caves for months or years and discovered that certain deliberate uses of attention—introspection, meditation, prayer—can radically transform a person’s moment to moment perception of the world.

I believe that most people are interested in spiritual life, whether they realize it or not. Every one of us has been born to seek happiness in a condition that is fundamentally unreliable. What you get, you lose. We are all (at least tacitly) interested in discovering just how happy a person can be in such a circumstance. On the question of how to be most happy, the contemplative life has some important insights to offer."

–Sam Harris, author of the End of Faith
cranster said:
Subsequently it always surprizes me that atheists know so much. They know for instance that God - by whatever definition - doesn’t exist.
It would be fooling for anyone to claim that they have knowledge that God does not exist. It is imposible to prove that something does not exist which goes for fairies and pink unicorns as well.

Best,
Leela
 
It is impossible to prove that something does not exist which goes for fairies and pink unicorns as well.
**It’s also impossible to prove the existence of God; nobody can serve believe in God to anybody.
But sorry; it’s also of bizarre lack of reason, to bring believe in God and Jesus word in whatsoever togetherness of fairies and pink unicorns. I guess an explanation why, would be useless, for if disbelievers don’t want to believe in God, they simply won’t. One must let them.
It really is surprising as Benedict says above, that atheists (no matter which name to use for disbelievers) “know so much - for instance that God - by whatever definition - doesn’t exist.”

Otherwise, as so many, even this psychological research is wrong, suggesting spirituality had to do with a sense for the sacred, for too many, across all social folks, whether soldier, channel digger or cook, - if working class or academics, converted from disbelief to very strong belief, very often out of a sudden; once the penny has dropped.
Then, these people even most unexpectedly to themselves, emphasized the absolute truth of the word of God. See the personal history of so many Saints; e.g. several of whom (Ignatius of Loyola) had been rough soldiers before, or even playboys. They just had been luckey not to die before the penny dropped.:o

Yes, atheism has a lot to do with individualism and the reluctance to submit to any authority. Disbelievers are in encapsulated narrow-mindedness, as they force themselves do believe “there is no God”. No argument might change their mind – as Jesus said: Not even when the dead arouse from their graves.
So quite often I think - why borther - they’ll see anyhow:coffeeread:
**
 
‘Atheism’, the term in itself holds a denial of the deity, God, be it personal or non-personal.

I think Harris is right in saying that his experience and similar experiences don’t lead per se to a specific world view. But of course from up the hunter-gatherer until modern man this experience has fed and supported all kinds of mythology, religion and philosophy.

I think with science we gain provisional knowledge, ‘true’ for the time being, ‘true’ until proved otherwise. Everything on top of that - faith, belief, metaphysics, myths – is even more uncertain. Still, it seems we inhabit a universe that is highly unlikely when explained as being some kind of freak incident, pointless and coming about by itself. World view can be irrational, pink unicorns are irrational, the world created in six days is irrational, but believing the world is more than just matter moving about, is not.

Harris also says something on humans always looking for happiness and contemplative life being interesting in this respect. Does he mean some kind of non-mystical mystical experience as vehicle for being happy? This already can be done in laboratory, and I expect drugs also can do the trick. Wow man !!
 
‘Atheism’, the term in itself holds a denial of the deity, God, be it personal or non-personal.
I doubt that a personal deity exists based on the evidence I’ve seen for such a God.
I think Harris is right in saying that his experience and similar experiences don’t lead per se to a specific world view. But of course from up the hunter-gatherer until modern man this experience has fed and supported all kinds of mythology, religion and philosophy.
Right. Mystical experiences of the type described by Harris do not confirm that Mohammed flew to heaven on a winged steed or that Jesus had no earthly father, but they tend to get used that way. The same sort of experience gets interpreted to support Islam by Muslims, Christianity by Christians, etc. yet these sets of beliefs contradict one another.

I think with science we gain provisional knowledge, ‘true’ for the time being, ‘true’ until proved otherwise. Everything on top of that - faith, belief, metaphysics, myths – is even more uncertain. Still, it seems we inhabit a universe that is highly unlikely when explained as being some kind of freak incident, pointless and coming about by itself. World view can be irrational, pink unicorns are irrational, the world created in six days is irrational, but believing the world is more than just matter moving about, is not.
I agree that it is perfectly rational to believe that the world is more than just a bunch of atos bumping into one another, but the unlikelihood or ureasonableness that the universe is just a freak accident does not constitute evidence that any of the various and contradictory explanations offered by the multitude of world faiths is true.

continued…

Best,
Leela
 
Does he mean some kind of non-mystical mystical experience as vehicle for being happy?..
Here is another Harris quote to give you an idea of what he means…

"… let me describe the general phenomenon I’m referring to. Here’s what happens: a person, in whatever culture he finds himself, begins to notice that life is difficult. He observes that even in the best of times—no one close to him has died, he’s healthy, there are no hostile armies massing in the distance, the fridge is stocked with beer, the weather is just so—even when things are as good as they can be, he notices that at the level of his moment to moment experience, at the level of his attention, he is perpetually on the move, seeking happiness and finding only temporary relief from his search.

In this context, certain people have traditionally wondered whether a deeper form of well-being exists. Is there, in other words, a form of happiness that is not contingent upon our merely reiterating our pleasures and successes and avoiding our pains. Is there a form of happiness that is not dependent upon having one’s favorite food always available to be placed on one’s tongue or having all one’s friends and loved ones within arm’s reach…? Is it possible to be utterly happy before anything happens, before one’s desires get gratified, in spite of life’s inevitable difficulties, in the very midst of physical pain, old age, disease, and death?

…certain people, for whatever reason, are led to suspect that there is more to human experience than this. In fact, many of them are led to suspect this by religion—by the claims of people like the Buddha or Jesus or some other celebrated religious figures. And such a person may begin to practice various disciplines of attention—often called “meditation” or “contemplation”—as a means of examining his moment to moment experience closely enough to see if a deeper basis of well-being is there to be found.

Such a person might even hole himself up in a cave, or in a monastery, for months or years at a time to facilitate this process. Why would somebody do this? Well, it amounts to a very simple experiment. Here’s the logic of it: if there is a form of psychological well-being that isn’t contingent upon merely repeating one’s pleasures, then this happiness should be available even when all the obvious sources of pleasure and satisfaction have been removed. If it exists at all, this happiness should be available to a person who has renounced all her material possessions, and declined to marry her high school sweetheart, and gone off to a cave or to some other spot that would seem profoundly uncongenial to the satisfaction of ordinary desires and aspirations.

One clue as to how daunting most people would find such a project is the fact that solitary confinement—which is essentially what we are talking about—is considered a punishment even inside a prison. Even when cooped up with homicidal maniacs and rapists, most people still prefer the company of others to spending any significant amount of time alone in a box.

And yet, for thousands of years, contemplatives have claimed to find extraordinary depths of psychological well-being while spending vast stretches of time in total isolation. It seems to me that, as rational people, whether we call ourselves “atheists” or not, we have a choice to make in how we view this whole enterprise. Either the contemplative literature is a mere catalogue of religious delusion, deliberate fraud, and psychopathology, or people have been having interesting and even normative experiences under the name of “spirituality” and “mysticism” for millennia.

Now let me just assert, on the basis of my own study and experience, that there is no question in my mind that people have improved their emotional lives, and their self-understanding, and their ethical intuitions, and have even had important insights about the nature of subjectivity itself through a variety of traditional practices like meditation.

Most us think that if a person is walking down the street talking to himself—that is, not able to censor himself in front of other people—he’s probably mentally ill. But if we talk to ourselves all day long silently—thinking, thinking, thinking, rehearsing prior conversations, thinking about what we said, what we didn’t say, what we should have said, jabbering on to ourselves about what we hope is going to happen, what just happened, what almost happened, what should have happened, what may yet happen—but we just know enough to just keep this conversation private, this is perfectly normal. This is perfectly compatible with sanity. Well, this is not what the experience of millions of contemplatives suggests.

From the point of view of our contemplative traditions…our habitual identification with discursive thought, our failure moment to moment to recognize thoughts as thoughts, is a primary source of human suffering. And when a person breaks this spell, an extraordinary kind of relief is available.

One problem with atheism as a category of thought, is that it seems more or less synonymous with not being interested in what someone like the Buddha or Jesus may have actually experienced.

…these experiences have a lot to say about the plasticity of the human mind and about the possibilities of human happiness.

…millions of people have had these experiences, and many millions more have had glimmers of them, and we, as atheists, ignore such phenomena, almost in principle, because of their religious associations—and yet these experiences often constitute the most important and transformative moments in a person’s life."
 
For me, the strongest argument of a non-believer is to ask “Why doesn’t God give us some solid proof that He exists?”

For example, every night God could write on the sky for a few minutes:

Good night
- God

There must be some great reasons why God doesn’t do this. I can think of a couple of reasons but I’m looking for more. Also I’m interested in doing more reading on this question if anyone can recommend a book or article to help.

Some questions/reasons:
  1. If God did that, what language would it be in?
  2. If God did that, would it be scientifically explanable? If not, how would science approach it? Would it completely mess up science and keep us from progressing?
  3. How would people respond emotionally to God being so close to us? Would we become lazy and stop trying to pray to God, and instead just watch for the notes in the sky? Would we then complain that if God really existed, he would make the notes more meaningful?
Any other reasons?
G-d did give us proof, we exist, and i fail to find an argument that can deny that while still agreeing with current cosmology.

the only real responses are sophistic word games that lack a credible connection to the observable universe as it exists today

flat out proof:thumbsup:
 
‘Atheism’, the term in itself holds a denial of the deity, God, be it personal or non-personal.

I think Harris is right in saying that his experience and similar experiences don’t lead per se to a specific world view. But of course from up the hunter-gatherer until modern man this experience has fed and supported all kinds of mythology, religion and philosophy.

I think with science we gain provisional knowledge, ‘true’ for the time being, ‘true’ until proved otherwise. Everything on top of that - faith, belief, metaphysics, myths – is even more uncertain. Still, it seems we inhabit a universe that is highly unlikely when explained as being some kind of freak incident, pointless and coming about by itself. World view can be irrational, pink unicorns are irrational, the world created in six days is irrational, but believing the world is more than just matter moving about, is not.

Harris also says something on humans always looking for happiness and contemplative life being interesting in this respect. Does he mean some kind of non-mystical mystical experience as vehicle for being happy? This already can be done in laboratory, and I expect drugs also can do the trick. Wow man !!
word games that have no bearing on the observable universe are just that, word games also known as sophistry

Sophistry

The practice of a sophist; fallacious reasoning; reasoning
sound in appearance only.-websters

do not be deceived if an argument does not match, or denies the observable universe, than that argument must be false.

harris speaks in many words, but what he really means is ‘we came from nothing’

an absurd implication that is shown to be false by our mere existence.

do not be fooled by college philosophy, i assure you that it is a physical impossibility, that we came from nothing

mind i said impossibility, not improbability.

intellectualism that denies a creator in effect denies our own existence, as pretty as the reasoning may seem it is indeed false
 
G-d did give us proof, we exist, and i fail to find an argument that can deny that while still agreeing with current cosmology.

the only real responses are sophistic word games that lack a credible connection to the observable universe as it exists today

flat out proof:thumbsup:
Well, remember the apostle Thomas.

When the other apostles told him they had seen Jesus, Thomas didn’t believe. He didn’t have enough proof. Then Jesus appeared to Thomas and gave him more proof… undeniable proof. And Jesus said “Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed”.

What I’m asking is, what if God gave everyone the same kind of proof Thomas had?
 
Well, remember the apostle Thomas.

When the other apostles told him they had seen Jesus, Thomas didn’t believe. He didn’t have enough proof. Then Jesus appeared to Thomas and gave him more proof… undeniable proof. And Jesus said “Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed”.

What I’m asking is, what if God gave everyone the same kind of proof Thomas had?
oh. with all other things remaining the same?

i would guess ‘heroin addict’ would be the best term, after all if we had Him with us at all times, who would deny an awesome over powering awe inspiring G-d?

you could technically, but i don’t think you could practically who would choose to be separated from that Holy Perfection,

and why would G-d want addicts to His perfection, Love given is so much sweeter than Love that is traded for. a heroin addict doesn’t really love you, he loves the heroin you provide,
sorting the difference is what i think it is all about:)
 
But I’m not your child, or a child. When you hijack threads like that, it prevents any topic other than the most simple from being discussed on here.

The fact is, its the spiritual children who hijack the threads because they think they know it all. Why would someone like Peter Kreeft make a audio mp3 about the subject if it was a stupid question?
Isn’t Our Mission to Teach all children? Adult and spiritual as well as juvenile :confused: ?:whistle:

And…Don’t Children often ask the most Complex questions? “Unless ye be as children, ye can not enter the kingdom of heaven”, or something like that. 🍿 :hmmm: :ehh:

Luckily, this site is not Audio. :clapping:
 
word games that have no bearing on the observable universe are just that, word games also known as sophistry

Sophistry

The practice of a sophist; fallacious reasoning; reasoning
sound in appearance only.-websters

do not be deceived if an argument does not match, or denies the observable universe, than that argument must be false.

harris speaks in many words, but what he really means is ‘we came from nothing’

an absurd implication that is shown to be false by our mere existence.

do not be fooled by college philosophy, i assure you that it is a physical impossibility, that we came from nothing

mind i said impossibility, not improbability.

intellectualism that denies a creator in effect denies our own existence, as pretty as the reasoning may seem it is indeed false
What word games are you talking about?

Can you support your claim that Harris really means “we came from nothing”?

What argument has anyone on this forum ever made that denies the existence of the observable universe?

Did you even read the passages I quoted? This is an example of why I don’t like to openly reference the likes of Harris or Dawkins. People think they can tune out and dismiss such arguments out of hand with ad hominems on the source.

Do you actually have anything to say that is on the topic that Bennedict and I were discussing? What is your view of such mystical experiences as he described?

Best,
Leela
 
What word games are you talking about?

Can you support your claim that Harris really means “we came from nothing”?

What argument has anyone on this forum ever made that denies the existence of the observable universe?

Did you even read the passages I quoted? This is an example of why I don’t like to openly reference the likes of Harris or Dawkins. People think they can tune out and dismiss such arguments out of hand with ad hominems on the source.

Do you actually have anything to say that is on the topic that Bennedict and I were discussing? What is your view of such mystical experiences as he described?

Best,
Leela
i defined word games in the post as sophistry. with the appropriate attribution. as to the assertion that the philosophies of harris, hitchens, and dawkins boil down to 'we came from nothing, sure, i offer the fact that they call themselves atheists, that there writings and interviews they deny the existence of G-d whether from the ‘weak negative atheism’ or the ‘strong atheism’ side.
that is the implied supposition. you will also find that to be the common belief of almost everyone here, except a few supporters of their works.

further, attacks on the source that you decry would not seem to be any different than the attacks they or you might offer on the validity of the Scripture. i doubt the validity of their works.

as to people denying an observable universe no, not outright, just to anything that might have caused it which is implication enough, maybe even more so than the actual denial

people dismiss the aforementioned atheists ideas in general, because the implicit assertions they make are ludicrous on the face of them as they are in contradiction of the obvious fact of the existence of an observable universe

as to the mystical experiences i like post #207 last paragraph.

remember, any argument that denies or substantially disagrees with what we know of the observable universe must be false by definition, a logical fallacy, a sophism.

do you have any evidence to the validity of the assertions of any of these three authors? can you support the final implication of their arguments, which is atheism, if so how?

please post your own arguments, i am not interested in reading three pages of harris’s book in lieu of your arguments, if i wished to directly confront the man i would call his publicist.🙂
 
Hello Bruno,

You write: “Otherwise, as so many, even this psychological research is wrong, suggesting spirituality had to do with a sense for the sacred, for too many, across all social folks, whether soldier, channel digger or cook, - if working class or academics, converted from disbelief to very strong belief, very often out of a sudden; once the penny has dropped.
Then, these people even most unexpectedly to themselves, emphasized the absolute truth of the word of God. See the personal history of so many Saints; e.g. several of whom (Ignatius of Loyola) had been rough soldiers before, or even playboys. They just had been luckey not to die before the penny dropped.”

I think the processes in the human brain are flexible enough to allow such conversions.

Also you write: “Yes, atheism has a lot to do with individualism and the reluctance to submit to any authority. Disbelievers are in encapsulated narrow-mindedness, as they force themselves do believe “there is no God”. No argument might change their mind – as Jesus said: Not even when the dead arouse from their graves.”

I think atheists of the school of Richard Dawkins and diehard evangelical creationists hijack each other into endless disputes, originating from both their narrow minded ness, hostility and reluctance to look for the broader picture. And they enforce each other in their antagonism, hardly listening to their arguments, experiences and reasoning. And the internet is full of their battles.

My suggestion is: looking at the context of psychology and culture might bring us further, provided there are minds in which the penny drops.
 
Leela,

You write: “I doubt that a personal deity exists based on the evidence I’ve seen for such a God.” You mean ‘evidence’ - with brackets ???

Concerning modern religious thinking on the universe, see: John Polkinghorne, Paul Davies, Fritjof Capra, Peter Russell, Brian Swimme, etc.
 
Then Jesus appeared to Thomas and gave him more proof… undeniable proof.
**No Dear; Jesus didn’t give Thomas more proof - Jesus offered Thomas more proof.

But what did Thomas do?

Thomas did not touch Jesus wounds as offered, but Thomas sank on his knees and said:

“My Lord and my God!”

Let’s do alike
**
 
i defined word games in the post as sophistry. with the appropriate attribution.
You’ve also sad before that you are “logic dislexic” and can’t tell the difference.
as to the assertion that the philosophies of harris, hitchens, and dawkins boil down to 'we came from nothing, sure, i offer the fact that they call themselves atheists, that there writings and interviews they deny the existence of G-d whether from the ‘weak negative atheism’ or the ‘strong atheism’ side.
that is the implied supposition. you will also find that to be the common belief of almost everyone here, except a few supporters of their works.
It is simply not true that atheism is equivalent to asserting that we cam from nothing. Most atheists subscribe to biological evolution, for example, which gives some idea of where we came from. Not knowing why a universe would bother to exist is not the same thing as saying that it exists for no reason or came from nothing.
further, attacks on the source that you decry would not seem to be any different than the attacks they or you might offer on the validity of the Scripture. i doubt the validity of their works.
I doubt that their works are divinely insprired, too. Such authors do not claim validity based on anything other than reason.
as to people denying an observable universe no, not outright, just to anything that might have caused it which is implication enough, maybe even more so than the actual denial

people dismiss the aforementioned atheists ideas in general, because the implicit assertions they make are ludicrous on the face of them as they are in contradiction of the obvious fact of the existence of an observable universe
I think you are in the minority in thinking that your existence is itself proof that God exists. What is self-evident to you in this case is not self-evident to me or most others. You will need to actually explain why their assertions are ludicrous.
as to the mystical experiences i like post #207 last paragraph.
Can you say what it means to you and why you like it?
remember, any argument that denies or substantially disagrees with what we know of the observable universe must be false by definition, a logical fallacy, a sophism.

do you have any evidence to the validity of the assertions of any of these three authors? can you support the final implication of their arguments, which is atheism, if so how?
Can you be more specific about what assertions you want me to address and what you mean by “validity” (if not “divinely inspired”)?

Best,
Leela
 
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